WC 2018 Group B: Spain Portugal Iran Morocco

There is nothing that can happen at the World Cup that will change anything about the false factual claim that I have said irritates and annoys me. Nothing. What is factually false is false. It doesn't become correct by virtue of any result or results in football several months later. Indeed, I have not even given my predictions for the World Cup or this group and that is not at all the issue being debated.

 

Sure, I was wrong to say that the journalists that you picked were all baseball journalists. The fact remains that: you don't have a SINGLE player in a top league and you play 90% of your games against teams like China, Qatar, and Uzbekistan. No journalist can change that.

Man if your players were as good at football as Iranian fans are good at argumentation and sales skills they wouldn't be playing in Chechnya and Sweden When this is all over and Iran gets a point or two in this WC, it will be fun to check out your Group thread page for WC 2022 and see Iran fans again pull these same arguments and challenge teams that are head and shoulders above them..

 

Thanks for the acknowledgment. But you were wrong on more than that: you are wrong to imply that only Iranian football fans rate Iran above Morocco or that no one who follows European football would ever do so. Lets first get the facts straight: that is wrong. Factually false.

It is a fact that, at the moment, we don't have a player in any top leagues in Europe. In the past, we have had many such players including with teams that didn't qualify to the World Cup despite having a dozen players from the Bundesliga.

And it is a fact we play against teams in the AFC -- and that something like perhaps 90% of the teams we play are from Asia. The same way it is a fact that Morocco plays in CAF and its opponents are from Africa! In fact, I am actually curious and would appreciate it if you could post all your results in this World Cup cycle against non-CAF teams. Objectively, CAF doesn't rate as highly as CAF fans imagine, even if I would rate it higher than how FIFA or ELO rate CAF.

Thanks for the implicit complement. But some of our players are actually much better than you imagine. Which is why they are on top of the goal scoring charts in the leagues they play, which are in some cases the same leagues that host some of your best players!

If Iran gets a point or two, it will have accomplished as much as would be reasonably expected from it in this group. Indeed, contrary to some of you guys, let me be clear: I rate Iran and Morocco pretty close, giving both a (B) in my grade system, with Iran (as a team, and not based on individual talent) getting only the slightest edge over Morocco. I certainly don't expect that we will necessarily beat Morocco and would not be shocked if we lose to Morocco either. But what I don't see is Morocco being "head and shoulders" above Iran. That is for sure. I don't see it that way and I don't think any truly objective and realistic football fan sees it that way. At most, some might give Morocco a slight edge over Iran. The latter is actually probably the case for most causual European football fans who have not seen Iran play recently, but may have heard about a few of Morocco's players.

The only team in this group that I rate "head and shoulders" above Iran on paper is Spain. Maybe, if I wanted to be perfectly objective and forget about "Nani" and company getting on my nerves, Portugal as well. But here is the thing: the same way Argentina was head and shoulders above Iran on paper, but almost suffered an upset against a weaker Iran team than this one, it is possible for Iran to upset either Spain or Portugal. It wouldn't shock me. Indeed, the part of me that is a fans, is hoping that will happen and has come to half expect it as well. If it doesn't happen though, that does not mean I will stop hoping that this might happen in 2022! It is ridiculous to imagine I should or would.

 

Forget the draw with Nigeria in which Iran was out shot 6-3 and out cornered 7-2 and also out possessed 63-37. Also forget about getting disposed of by Bosnia 3-1, all that really matters is you played a good game against Argentina.

I get it, I mean we all know nothing is guaranteed and upsets happen, but in the end who was predicated to come in last and did just that? So sure, Iran is going to have to square up against 3 teams they are inferior too, sure they could have a good game, but in the end last place is where the smart money will place them.

Keep selling your players though, I mean sure no one is really caring or reading these novel's worth of information about a mediocre team, but hey, I guess I can't blame you because no one knows who the f$%k they are.

 

In 2014, the usual suspects had insisted (not merely predicted) that Iran would finish pointless and be hammered by its opponents. Which is why, despite Iran ending up last in the group, none of the usual suspects got to gloat as much then as they do now

Also, while I truly was disappointed by Iran's performance against Bosnia as it exposed Carlos Queiroz and his team as a "one trick pony" at that time, it is still true that we at least went into our last match still hopeful of a place in the R-16 while Bosnia was already eliminated by then. In fact, other than the Bosnia match (where Iran's performance was below par), no Iranian fan would have been disappointed by what had transpired in the World Cup until then.

Since 2014, however, Iran has become a much better team - and while I am not a fan of Carlos Queiroz, that is to his credit. Iran definitely isn't the same one trick pony it used to be back then. It has changed to a side that has truly impressed those who have followed and watched it play. As one measure of the difference, back in 2014, even though Iran finished on top of its group ahead of South Korea (beating S.Korea home and away), most Korean fans still insisted they were better than Iran. None of the Koreans fans that I know (and you can visit the thread after their games against Iran) made that claim this time around. They all totally accepted that Iran was simply a much better team than they were. The point is: this is not 2014 anymore, never mind that even in 2014, Iran wasn't that far from creating a huge upset against Argentina (which would have given it a ticket to the R-16).

 

Ruthless!!!!

That the kind of attitude in finishing Portugal need hehehehe

 

LOL yeah, please show the same "ruthless finishing" when we meet at the World Cup too

Incidentally, if this is going to be like 2014, then my condolences to Portugal. In 2014, Iran's first game was against a CAF team, Nigeria. This time our first game is against a CAF team, Morocco. That match ended 0:0. Our 2nd game was against a side with World Cup trophies and among the favorites, namely Argentina. This time around, our 2nd game is against another such side, namely Spain. Our 3rd game was against a then higher ranked UEFA team from a small country whose fans suffered from a huge inferiority complex, even though they did have some rather famed players like Dzeko. Okay, Portugal is more famed than Bosnia in football and Ronaldo is better than even Dzeko. But the cultural traits of a small country with a say "provincial mindset" are evident among the Portuguese fans here and you are the higher ranked UEFA team Iran is to meet in its last match. So I think you will be playing the role of Bosnia in this group, which means you will have been eliminated by the time you meet Iran in our last match We will still be in contention, but if you are looking for a silver lining, the silver lining is that you will end up beating Iran and finish above Iran in 3rd place.

Of course, as an Iranian fan, this is not the scenario I am looking for but if Iran isn't the side to advance from this group, I prefer Morocco to advance instead of Portugal. That is for sure.

 

I didn’t include the EUROPA League stats which also clearly favours the Iranian selection of forwards. I also didn’t include Ghoddos who is tearing it up in EUROPA leuage and Taremi who is the best striker in Iran and arguably all of Asia domestically, because despite being natural forwards, they will be both used as wingers for Iran NT. What’s clear is that even the 5th and 6th choice forwards for Iran, could easily start for Morocco over Boutaïb, and we still have people here mindlessly arguing that Morocco has better forwards than Iran.

 

Hehehe hilarious

You've actually compared Portugal to Bosnia in a football sense and I'm no Ronaldo fanboy but speaking of Dzeko in the same breath as CR7

This encapsulates your poor understanding of football and this is why your require a small countries left over coach to lead your national team over and extended period..... pretty sad.

 

To be clear, I repped your post despite objecting to some of your characterizations of others and despite disagreeing with some of what you said. But I repped it because it appeared a bit more level-headed and rational than some of the other comments I have read from you. Its football analysis, in particular, looked fine.

 

Nani_17 is just mad because he knows Iran > Portugal in pretty much every sport as is and Iran might actually catch up with Portugal in football too, in the not too distant future, starting with the World Cup in Russia. I mean how hard can humbling Portugal be? If Koreans and Americans did it before, we can do it too. Bring it on!

 

Hahahahaha Iran better than Portugal.. Iran is not in the same universe as Portugal. Half your team plays on semi professional leagues in war torn countries like Chechnya or places like Sweden where soccer isn't even a major sport. LOL

 

Here's some more history for you

 

Ancient irrelevant history. That Iran team was in turmoil and lacked any team spirit. Iran is a much better team now, a much more balanced unit, with more depth and better players in almost every position. From that team, only Nekounam, Teymourian, Karimi and Mahdavikia would make our squad now. This Iran team is universally regarded as the best Asian side since Japan of 2010. This Iran team is reminiscent of both Turkey of 2002 in offence and Algeria of 2014 in defence. So underestimate Team Melli Iran at your own peril!

 

I can't wait to play Iran in the third game. They'll either be out or need a a win and won't be able to park the bus. So in a way I hope they get something from the Morocco game so they have to come out and attack us after they get humbled by Spain. Toe to toe with Portugal should be fun

 

I have said a few times that World Cup 2006 is something I truly like to forget. It hurts me to this day, mostly because of one player. The kind of player that Asian football may never see again. The kind of player that deserved to show his magic at the World Cup but ended up with a bad injury just before the tournament and became the center of a dispute that ripped Iran's team from within.

This tribute to Ali Karimi, written by John Duerden for ESPN when he announced his retirement, will give you a clue of why the 2006 World Cup is something I prefer never to discuss. Not so much because of Iran (we aren't all that special to be missed regardless), but because of a player that was indeed all that special and more.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/club/name/469/blog/post/1961237/headline
Asia loses a legend as Karimi retires

"Not many football players were mentioned by name in those diplomatic cables released to the world by WikiLeaks a few years ago but Ali Karimi was.
...
His 117 caps for Iran, Bundesliga success with Bayern Munich and three separate spells with his beloved Persepolis in Tehran don't tell anything like the full story. Karimi is one, some say the best, of the most talented players Asia has ever produced.
....
Special barely begins to describe the quarterfinal of the 2004 Asian Cup against South Korea, almost exactly a decade ago. ...Scoring a hat trick in a 4-3 win was always going to grab the headlines but there was something different about his performance that only a true great can claim. Iran coach Branko Ivankovic recalled later on how he realised early in the game that his star man was in special form; the instructions from the bench and the half-time team talk were basically to give it to Karimi.
...
It was almost a perfect year with the only frustration that he was still playing for Al Ahli in a UAE league where he lingered too long. ...In typical Karimi fashion however, when the move came, it was a big one as he left Dubai for Bayern Munich...
...Karimi's first game against Bayer Leverkusen was watched by millions back home. It is hard to think of an Asian player who had managed such an impressive big league debut after a direct switch from east to west and the midfielder basked in the plaudits after helping his new club to a 5-2 win.

He continued to look solid over the next six months or so, before an ankle injury in arctic conditions against Hamburg in March 2006 ended his first campaign. He never really got going
....
...
There will be regret that the wider world outside Asia didn't get to see much of what he could do. 2006 should have been the time but the World Cup was a disaster for both player and country. Karimi was still not match fit after the Hamburg injury and was taken off on the hour of the opening game against Mexico. Shortly after, a 1-1 scoreline became a 3-1 defeat. Worse was to follow. He was one side of a major split in the dressing room opposite Ali Daei, a legend who was past his best by the time the tournament kicked off, and for Iranian football, the lack of unity off the pitch was more painful than results on it."

 

Hillarious thread
Keep it up guys.

 

Iran catch up to Portugal lol, I'm trying to make peace with some Iranians here but come on now. Lol if it hasn't happen in a 100 years and there is still no sign of it happening within the next decade, what reason do you have besides wishful thinking?

 

If Iran is so superior to the rest of Asia, why hasn't it even won a single Asian cup in more than 4 decades? How many international trophies has Iran won?

No one cares about who finished first in qualifying, you don't get a trophy for it

 

At least, to catch up with Portugal, they hired a coach of that same nationality, whom once was, also Portugal's coach.

Must count for something.......

 

Even though historical records don't really have anything to do with which side is the best in Asia right now, when it comes to Iran, the historical record is actually quite favorable when it comes to results and not as favorable when it comes to achievements.

In terms of results, Iran has the best overall win/loss/point record in the Asian Cup. It is one of those teams that rarely loses and generally wins its matches. As such, the all-time table shows Iran comfortably on top and better than anyone else with 129 points earned during the years in the tournament. In 13 consecutive qualifications to the Asian Cup since 1968, and in 62 matches played, Iran has suffered a total of 7 losses overall. In other words, something like only 1 loss in every 2 tournaments. No one has a better points per game ratio either, with Iran earning on average 2.08 points per game. For comparison purposes, S.Korea's points per game ratio is 1.81. Saudi Arabia (a side that has a lot of trophies) nonetheless has a points per game ratio of 1.51. Even reigning champs Australia (2.06), which hasn't been participating that long, and Japan (2.05) (which have the most trophies) trail Iran on points per game, while they obviously don't even compare on overall points. When it comes to actual results, Iran's record is simply unparalleled in Asia. I will put it to you this way: the last time any team beat Iran in regulation in the Asian Cup was in the opening match of the 1996 tournament 22 years ago. During this period, other than 2 overtime losses, Iran has no other losses in 22 years. That is remarkable actually and shows how good Iran has always been.

But the above is in terms of results, not achievements. In achievements, we clearly lag behind. How? Why? The simple answer: Iran has lost many crucial penalty lotteries. While statistically we were undefeated in the last Asian Cup, with a statistical record of 3 wins and 1 draw, we nonetheless exited the tournament after losing the penalty lottery at the quarterfinal stage. This has happened to us many times during the 40 years you mention: Iran was undefeated in 1984 despite finishing 4th (penalty lottery losses in the semis and the 3rd place match). Iran was undefeated in the 2004 despite finishing 3rd (penalty lottery loss in the semifinal match). Iran was undefeated in the 2007 Asian Cup (penalty lottery loss in the quarterfinal match). Even the last time when we had actually lost a match in regulation, in the 1996 Asian Cup, we had beat Saudi Arabia 3:0 in the group stage and South Korea 6:2 in the quarterfinals. We then lost the semifinal match to Saudi Arabia on penalties.
________________________
Above, I just gave you the simple answer. The more complete answer would take even longer and part of it may sound like sour grapes and excuses. But just go watch how Iran ended up in a penalty lottery in the last Asian Cup in the first place. Watch how Iran ended up in a penalty lottery in the 2004 Asian Cup against the hosts. Here is a hint: both times Iran was forced to play, unfairly for bogus ejections, over 70+ minutes with 10 players! Referee errors are part of the game when they are random and they are random when they occur to teams that aren't isolated politically and otherwise within their confederation. In the AFC, which is dominated by sunni Arab teams led by a group that are anti-Iranian in every sense, where referees are often from these same sunni Arab countries with poor relations with Iran, an Iranian (admittedly seeing it all through frustrated and biased lenses) will not always see what happens as random! Conversely, there are sides which, to Iranians at least, seem to get more than their share of favorable calls: fathom penalties, goals disallowed without justification, etc.

One last point: while Iran's 3 Asian Cup trophies are dated, until 2002, there was another tournament in Asia which also served as the continental championship, namely the Asian Games. Iran has 4 Asian Games trophies (1974, 1990, 1998, 2002) and during the same 40 year period often was the Asian champs anyway. But, of course, with the Asian Games following the format of the Olympics and becoming age restricted since 2002, that tournament has lost its luster completely. And, to be sure, it was always rated 2nd best compared to the Asian Cup anyway.

 

On a more serious note, Carlos Queiroz is extremely popular in Iran and among Iranian fans. He has also been legitimately successful ever since after World Cup 2014 and done well during the period after the last World Cup. But I sometimes wonder if Iran gave any coach the longevity, resources, and support Queiroz has received, if we wouldn't have done even better?

Indeed, from my perspective at least, one of this 2 most positive influences on our football has been a product of his undeniable character flaws. Queiroz has a very selfish, self-centered, jealous, and incredibly intolerant and thin-skinned, personality. That makes him someone I really don't like but it also makes him someone who has made sure Iran's team is all quiet and well behaved. No player in Iran dares to so much as squeak and march to any tune other than what Querioz has set for them. This is in marked contrast to past Iranian teams, which were always divided along various camps and had more side issues than your daily soap opera! And, in the process, for this reason, Iran has become something opposite to its normal character: a real team, as opposed to a collection of individual players.

On the positive side, the other good thing about Queiroz is that he is a famous coach with the kind of credentials and pedigree that is lacking (and very much in regard) in a rather isolated country like Iran. As a former assistant coach to Alex Ferguson with a long stint at Old Trafford, as former coach of Real Madrid, coach of Portugal's world champion youth teams and Portugal's 2010 World Cup team, Queiroz has a notable, eye-catching, resume. It gives him credibility and earns the trust of his players when he tells them what to do and that should come in handy when they face teams like the ones they will meet at the World Cup. If an Iranian coach, no matter how talented, smart or gifted or successful locally, was telling them what to do, many of the players would say what the hell do you know? So that is also good about having Queiroz as our coach.

But while Iran is no longer quite the same "one trick pony" it used to be under Queiroz in his initial years in Iran, and even though our results and performances today have actually improved compared to even our historical record and standards, there was a time when Queiroz was simply overrated in Iran. He qualified Iran to the 2014 World Cup "on top of our qualifying group" with more losses in the qualifying campaign than what Iran had ever experienced. We lost 2 games in the 2014 qualifiers, where even in 2010 and 2002 when Iran failed to qualify, we had suffered only 1 loss altogether in the Asian qualifiers. And tactically, up to that point, he had basically turned the most exciting (even if occasionally the most disappointing) side in Asian football into the most boring and pedestrian team imaginable. A side that used to dominate its opponents (even the best of them like Japan and South Korea) whether winning or losing, was turned into a side that played a cautious and boring style even against 2nd tier sides in Asia. Fortunately, after World Cup 2014, things began to change and I like our team and how it plays more now than before. But Queiroz's intolerant and self-centererd personality, in the meantime, has become even worse. For all the good and bad that entails!

 

I don't want to upset Iranian fans who are very much in love with Querioz, and I think anyone can see that I have been fully supportive of Iran's team regardless of my personal feelings about Queiroz, but if there was one picture that sums up Carlos Queiroz's self-centered and self-promoting personality (total opposite of what the folklore among his Iranian fans that sees him fighting the fight for "IRAN") its this one right after Iran clinched its qualification to the World Cup!



Instead of the moment being about Iran and his team, for Queiroz it was all about himself: his 4th time qualifying to the World Cup (twice with Iran, once with Portugal and once with South Africa).

 

You can't put points or win/lose record in a trophy cabinet. Only number that matters is how many cups you got. 40 years of not winning anything is not just a coincidence. Good teams win trophies, it's that simple.

You mentioned having better club players didn't mean anything. Well Japan and South Korea have historically always had better club players and their number of trophies reflects that.