28, sooner or later

Discussion in 'MLS: Expansion' started by Sport Billy, May 13, 2016.

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  1. Lewis N. Clark

    Jul 1, 2014
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I tend to think that MLS is serious about the 28 team limit even though other US pro leagues are in the 30-32 team range.

    MLS has stated that they want to become a top league internationally. Most international division 1 leagues are around 20 teams. A 30 or 32 team league might "dilute" the quality of play and the respect for the league.

    It would also dilute the value of the franchises. For instance, if MLS takes all 4 and reaches 28 teams and says, "That's it", then when San Diego or St. Louis wants a franchise in the future, the price goes up to purchase FC Dallas or the Colorado Rapids and relocate them.

    Anyway, it will be interesting to see if MLS holds firm at 28.
     
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  2. QuietType

    QuietType Member+

    Jun 6, 2009
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Will never do that - they like having teams in waiting, like they have drug Sacramento along as, in order to artificially drive up the demand/expectations and competition for spots. MLS stringing Sacramento along cause a bunch of other cities to get together bids that tried to meet or exceed what Sacramento had done.

    It's in MLS' interest to have at least one city ready to jump into the league at any moment because any other places will need to compete with that to get their bid considered.
     
  3. QuietType

    QuietType Member+

    Jun 6, 2009
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've said for a long time that the league is either going to split into East/West Conferences ("leagues") that don't play eachother until a championship, OR they're going to set up a sort of closed league with pro/rel between the two tiers (two "leagues"). That way they can have 32-40 teams, which they can easily get.

    Will be interesting to see which approach they do. What I don't see is continuing to add teams but not address the structure of the league and inter-conference play.
     
  4. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Seems to me, if part of professional soccer's purpose in the USA is to develop American soccer talent, then it's 100% rational for each league and division to expand as much as financially possible. Have as many MLS teams as possible. Have as many USL teams as possible. And each team has an academy. If you care about development, you should be for the largest leagues possible. People talk about "over expansion" as if it will dilute the talent pool. But expansion also helps make sure, in the long run at least, that more American players have the chance to develop into professional players. If we can make a 40 team MLS and a 60 team USL work, then I'm all for it.
     
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  5. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s my opinion that we are not oversaturated if we don’t have guys like Luis Gil , jack mcinerney, tommy Thompson , Harry shipp, ryan hollingshead, warren creavale types starting. I know those are uninteresting players they’re good enough to be mls journeymen in this league who are given a shot other than spot starts. It’s a pretty fair barometer IMO, perhaps more needs to be done to protect American players from being snuffed out , but that’s another thread and I don’t mean to thread jack , but there’s too man reasonably talented American players consistently riding the pine to say we are oversaturated
     
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  6. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I would be absolutely gobsmacked if that happened this year.
     
  7. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only thing is when MLS finally closes the door for good they make the pro/rel argument even more relevant. As long as they are openly expanding you can say pro/rel isn't necessary. Once you close the door for good the argument for it gains more credence.
     
  8. Traumer

    Traumer Member

    Feb 25, 2016
    Cincinnati
    1. I am not trying to fight. I like Sacramento, and have viewed them and Orlando as the model for Cincinnati to follow. I want us both in MLS. Always have.

    2. In regards to ticket prices, is it fair to say relative price of goods or services in California and Ohio are way different? From my experience people on the west coast and northeast are always amazed how cheap things are in the midwest and the south. Friend of mine pays twice as much to rent an apartment out in California than what I pay each month on my house.
     
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  9. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    #2484 Zoidberg, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    Gains some credence among certain individuals.

    Until there is a very strong USL, with numerous revenue controlled stadium situations, not just one or two, there will be a bit more noise, but it will still be a long way off to becoming reality.

    The logistics, legalities, stadium issues, ownership issues, municipalities who have given money for MLS stadium support issues, etc, etc, etc....are not insignificant.

    I doubt we see anything even remotley real for decades....even then depending on situation who knows. It will be good for internet debates, articles, talk shows, but there is just so much working against it. Just the way it is.
     
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  10. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    What can you afford to wager.....I will cover any amount you come up with against on this if you are willing.:p
     
  11. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    #2486 Zoidberg, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    All I can do is shake my head whenever the "dilution of talent" comments come out. Been dealing with them since there was 10 teams.

    ....the thought that there will be more interest, more rev, more knowledge spread, and more talent developed by limiting markets is simply absurd in reality. It may sound fine on paper/on the net....maybe in class....but in the real world it is kind of nuts TBH.

    Oh yeah.....why do folks insist on bringing up what Europe does constantly? We are not Europe in any way, shape or form. Historically, culturally, size wise when it comes to soccer. Not even close. WTF does Europe have to do with us? It is the biggest mental hang up that people have, and why they can't come to grips with what, and why things happen in the development of the game here. Sigh.
     
  12. mike4066

    mike4066 Member+

    Jun 30, 2007
    Chula Vista, CA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I got 20 on it. They will stay at 28.
     
  13. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    To be clear....you think they are going to stay at 28 in perpituity?
     
  14. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nothing will ever make the pro/rel argument relevant to anyone giving it more than a few seconds of critical consideration.
     
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  15. Lewis N. Clark

    Jul 1, 2014
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I agree that expanding the pyramid to more and more places is a very good thing for soccer in the USA. The NHL doesn't have a great TV deal, yet high school kids are filling arenas all over the country at the junior hockey level- building fans of the sport. I'd like large d2 and d3 as well as "d4" (amateur) leagues covering many towns.

    But I'm not convinced a huge MLS increases the value/respect for the league. I'd like the nation's d1 to be (someday) truly elite level soccer.


    PS. If MLS goes beyond 28 teams, I'll tie myself to a chair and watch a whole episode of "The View"! :D
     
  16. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kind of like those predictions that soccer is Un-American and will never succeed here.
     
  17. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    In what way?

    Apples and oranges. The very reasons that pro/rel existed in the first place, and the economic reasons that it continues today do not exist in this marketplace. Nor will they. In fact, basic economics makes pro/rel a complete non-starter under all but the most fantastic assumptions, none of which are grounded in fact or reason.

    Go ahead and put pro/rel in your local rec league. That's a great place for it.

    And, except for some romantic notions, there's nothing positive that pro/rel offers the United States that isn't offset ten times over by crippling ruin and disaster.

    On the whole, it doesn't drive player development. It doesn't drive fan engagement. It does dis-incent any municipality from investing in infrastructure or helping to facilitate stadium or training ground building/renewal. It disincentivizes teams from spending on anything other than player salaries - which may sound great if you want your team to win, but it's pretty terrible in pretty much every other way fathomable - Hillsborough? Heysel? Anyone? And wait until Adidas or Nike or Gatorade or ESPN or FOX finds themselves paying a bunch of money to a league that doesn't have a team in New York.

    Pro/rel is a fantasy. It doesn't hold up.

    I like pro/rel. I have run dart leagues with it. It's great. I'd like to see the NCAA pull football teams out of the conferences and institute pro/rel.

    But applying pro/rel to professional soccer in the United States makes absolute zero rational sense.
     
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  18. mike4066

    mike4066 Member+

    Jun 30, 2007
    Chula Vista, CA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes.
     
  19. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    I bet that eventually MLS goes to 32 teams. Under the current season format, that's the sweet spot where all the teams can still play each other at least once per year, yet play 3 other clubs in close proximity at least twice a year to keep the heat on their rivalries.

    As for what to bet, I'll bet a nice bottle of VQA wine from the Niagara region. Is someone willing to put up a bottle from Napa Valley?
     
  20. The Franchise

    The Franchise Member+

    Nov 13, 2014
    Bakersfield, CA
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm hard pressed to think the league will be at 28 any longer than six years. The longest MLS has ever maintained the same number of teams was four years at 12 (1998-2001), followed by three years at 10 ('02-'04) and 19 ('12-'15). At some point soon-ish expansion will stop, but I expect it to slow first. There are a lot of good markets and a lot of billionaires out there who want in.
     
  21. tallguy

    tallguy Member+

    Sep 15, 2004
    MoCoLand, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If MLS ever expands to 36 to 40 teams, it would make more sense to divide the league into two divisions with pro/rel only between those two divisions. I can't imagine how MLS & their major media outlets would market a 40 team league.
     
  22. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    And that's exactly why the league won't expand beyond 32. At some point the structure becomes unwieldy and spreads out the revenue too much.
     
  23. RaisedEverywhere

    Mexico
    Aug 9, 2017
    Detroit
    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/12/county_rules_out_jail_on_grati.html

    Just stumbled on this on a reddit MLS expansion thread. A lot of people on there seem to believe the Downtown Detroit SSS option is not dead. I was shocked when I heard that. So I read the article above, and it does indeed say that the company that Gilbert runs has not completely ruled out the stadium in downtown.

    Some believe that they pivoted to Ford Field because they knew they couldn't get the stadium deal done before the expansion announcement. Makes sense, just seems a little far fetched because I figured the fact that they have not completely ruled out a SSS would have already been reported.
     
  24. RedRover

    RedRover BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 15, 2007
    IF that's the case, then it might improve Detroit's chances of landing one of the two teams to be granted this month. I still can't imagine Garber and MLS would grant Gilbert and Gores (and the Fords) an expansion franchise to strictly play at Ford Field, unless they were guaranteed an SSS at the old jail site were to be built in the immediate future.
     
  25. Cincy Liverpool fan

    Fc Cincinnati
    Jun 16, 2015
    Cincinnati, USA
    Club:
    Cincinnati Kings
    Aloha from the islands, day late but...
     

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