2017 MLS Week 29 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by bhooks, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    09/20/2017

    Atlanta United v LA Galaxy
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (7:00PM ET)
    REF: RICARDO SALAZAR
    AR1: Joe Fletcher
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Jose Carlos Rivero
    VAR: Christina Unkel

    Toronto FC v Montreal Impact
    BMO Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: JAIR MARRUFO
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Frank Anderson
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Fotis Bazakos

    09/23/2017

    New York City FC v Houston Dynamo
    Pratt & Whitney Stadium (3:00PM ET)
    REF: ALLEN CHAPMAN
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Craig Lowry
    4TH: Jorge Gonzalez
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr

    New England Revolution v Toronto FC
    Gillette Stadium (5:00PM ET)
    REF: ALAN KELLY
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Kyle Longville
    4TH: Chris Penso
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr

    D.C. United v San Jose Earthquakes
    RFK Stadium (7:00PM ET)
    REF: MARCOS DEOLIVEIRA
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Hilario Grajeda
    VAR: Matthew Franz

    Philadelphia Union v Chicago Fire
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:00PM ET)
    REF: ROBERT SIBIGA
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Ted Unkel
    VAR: Jonathan Weiner

    Columbus Crew v New York Red Bulls
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: FOTIS BAZAKOS
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Peter Balciunas
    4TH: Ricardo Salazar
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic

    Minnesota United v FC Dallas
    TCF Bank Stadium (8:00PM ET)
    REF: ALEX CHILOWICZ
    AR1: Mike Rottersman
    AR2: Jeremy Hanson
    4TH: Kevin Stott
    VAR: Katja Koroleva

    Real Salt Lake v Seattle Sounders
    Rio Tinto Stadium (9:30PM ET)
    REF: SORIN STOICA
    AR1: Jeff Muschik
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Drew Fischer
    VAR: Jon Freemon

    Vancouver Whitecaps v Colorado Rapids
    BC Place (10:00PM ET)
    REF: JOSE CARLOS RIVERO
    AR1: Eric Boria
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Dave Gantar

    09/24/2017

    Sporting Kansas City v LA Galaxy
    Children’s Mercy Park (2:00PM ET)
    REF: MARK GEIGER
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: CJ Morgante
    4TH: Armando Villarreal
    VAR: David Barrie

    Atlanta United v Montreal Impact
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (5:00PM ET)
    REF: ISMAIL ELFATH
    AR1: Kermit Quisenberry
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Juan Guzman
    VAR: Jorge Ramirez

    Portland Timbers v Orlando City
    Providence Park (8:00PM ET)
    REF: BALDOMERO TOLEDO
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Eduardo Mariscal
    4TH: Baboucarr Jallow
    VAR: Drew Fischer
     
  2. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    First MLS whistle for Alex Chilowicz this week, and 2 female FIFAs (Katja Koroleva and Christina Unkel) get VAR assignments this week
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chilowicz already had a whistle this year.

    Ramirez has his first VAR assignment, I believe.

    Note Dave Barrie (and all "guest" Canadians) now have their names appear. Wonder how that happened.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sunday will be regular season whistle #100 for Ismail Elfath.
     
  5. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    Wow really nice bit of refereeing. Min 42 Atl vs LA.

    Atlanta player slides Jermaine Jones in a reckless fashion and Jones, on his way down, kicks out at the Atlanta player. YC for Atlanta, send off for Jones.

    The play was bang bang and I thought it simply awesome that he picked up the kick out and addressed it properly.
     
  6. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    Any thoughts on ATL Vasquez send off? Definitely reckless, but I'm not sure about red. But the next time I work a game at that level will be my first.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought Salazar refereed an excellent match overall tonight. But I have no comprehension of what happened with the Atlanta red card.

    A foul gets called for Vazquez clattering late into an LA defender who had just kicked the ball. Contact is leg on leg. Looks like a pretty standard yellow on first view, but LA defender stays down and LA is asking for more (important to note they are playing 10 v 11 due to earlier red card on Jones). Salazar has yellow out and is calming situation. Calls Vazquez over as he is clearly getting input on comms. Vazquez comes over and then Salazar produces and shows the red card, all while he has the yellow in his hand. Vazquez leaves the pitch but hangs out with Rivero, the 4th. Salazar now makes the VAR signal and goes to the monitor to check the decision with an OFR. Salazar returns to field of play, indicates the red is upheld, and Vazquez departs.

    Two things. From a process standpoint, for the OFR to be triggered the VAR must suggest the on-field decision was a clear and obvious error. So, unless I'm missing something, the decision process went:

    1. Salazar yellow
    2. 4th of AR red
    3. Salazar red
    4. VAR yellow
    5. Salazar red (or, technically, "not obviously yellow")

    That alone is pretty crazy.

    Second, the decision itself mystifies me. I always thought it was yellow but I could see how a challenge like that would be red if the studs were exposed or there was a ton of late force. Neither of those components seemed to exist and, in fact, Vazquez deliberately and obviously tucked his studs in to ensure he didn't hit his opponent with them. If I had given a red for something like this and got to see this replay, I would think I was lucky to correct my mistake (particularly if my original instinct was yellow!). The only thing I can think here is that Salazar believes the standard for a clear and obvious mistake means there has to be absolutely 0% case for a red card and he felt the force alone was enough to say the call was justifiable. Still doesn't explain how he was okay with yellow originally and the VAR obviously felt the red was wrong. No mater what, it was a mess. Will get less attention because it was a midweek game and the aggrieved team won 4-0. But it was a mess.
     
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I still don't see how this won't turn into hockey with their offside reviews. It started with the idea of fixing the big errors, but now you have reviews that look frame by frame attempting to determine if a skate was off the ice by millimeters or if the puck crossed the blue line 1/30th of a second before the skate did. The definition of clear and obvious is not so clear...nor obvious.
     
  9. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Personally, I'm pretty much ok with the Vazquez red. He had every opportunity to avoid contact, but it sure looked like he wasn't interested in anything but getting a shot in. I see no real attempt to play the ball, either.

    Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but I'd see an attempt to play the ball in this manner to be reckless at worse, but with the ball out of the equation, this looks violent to me.
     
  10. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You've got it pretty much correct.

    Salazar went yellow
    AR2 (Greeson) insisted on red
    Salazar puts his yellow away and shows the red
    VAR is still talking to him, and he decides to look for himself, and he stays red.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017...0-la-galaxy-4-minute-highlights?autoplay=true

    Insane decision. Not even close to red. Vasquez completely pulls out, no studs exposed and ankle to ankle contact. Easy yellow. Just a young kid who sees little to no playing time and is fighting for minutes so @ManiacalClown you're definitely wrong on that point. Vasquez probably one of nicest kids I've refereed. Shows his class accepting the red (twice!) with no dissent even after Salazar had pulled a yellow. Definitely not looking to get a shot in, just looking to see the field more than 2 minutes at the end of every 4th game.

    Outside of that, Salazar had a great game. Thought LA had a legitimate PK shout or maybe just outside PA early on. Hard to tell if he applied advantage or just didn't think it was a foul. Allesandrini chased him up the field and gave him an earful for a while.
     
  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm wrong a lot don't worry.
     
  12. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 jarbitro, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    Honestly, Salazar didn't have a good view of it. AR2 had the best view. I got the impression Salazar was going yellow based on the reaction more than on what he saw. But Gresson could see across. And in 4-0, you don't need to leave your trail leg out like that. I'm not saying ATL wouldn't win an appeal, but I am saying that its reasonable how that played out.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can see you saying that it's reasonable how it played out if VAR wasn't in play. Like you said, if Salazar's instinct was yellow but he knew he didn't have the best view, he could and would rely on Greeson to tell him it's red based on having the better angle.

    But with VAR, I fail to see how this is reasonable. It's a dumb challenge, but not all dumb challenges are SFP. Vazquez realized he was late, tucked his leg, and mitigated the contact. The video shows it. We would never say this is SFP in the classroom. And the VAR felt the decision to go red was obviously wrong. So for Salazar to uphold the red, he had to simply feel his hands were tied and that, despite SFP not being the optimal call, it did not actually fall into the "clear and obvious" error threshold. And I just don't get that.

    Dawns on me now, also, that if this was Greeson, this is now the second high-profile situation within a month where the Greeson-Salazar pair had discussions that led the color of the initial card pulled to being changed. PRO lauded them last time for the DOGSO situation; wonder if there will be a public verdict this time.

    EDIT: as a corollary to all this, it appears Salazar and Greeson have been together five times since the end of July. Given the crew concept, more or less, is no longer a practice, that's either a huge assigning coincidence or Salazar trusts Greeson so much that he requests him.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  14. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FWIW, I didn't think it was SFP, either, but my interpretation was unpopular.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting situation on the first caution in Vancouver last night:

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...ps-fc-vs-colorado-rapids/details/video/135529

    I would argue that once you allow play to advantage and the shot on goal to occur, even if you haven't visually signaled advantage it's not advisable to go back and give the DFK here. The card needs to be given, but this seems like a situation where your hands are tied as advantage has been applied and realized, so you have to wait to the next stoppage. Colorado players obviously agreed. Wonder if anyone sees it differently.
     
  16. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. As MassRef points out in the post after yours, pre-VAR I don't have a huge problem with how it played out to start.

    Salazar was stuck with the worst angle possible from 30-35 yards away and 'guessed' using his years of experience to go yellow. He recognizes he has a terrible angle and relies on AR2 who has a perfect angle, albeit from 70-75 yards away. Pre-VAR I'd say Vasquez was unlucky but put himself in the unfortunate position of forcing the referee crew to make a difficult decision. Don't put refs in that position and they have nothing to think about it.

    The issue is just how Salazar sticks to his guns and keeps the red after review.
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  17. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think a Grade 9 straight out of an entry level course, and every referee in the world would argue the same sir!
     
  18. oldmanreferee

    oldmanreferee Member

    Dec 28, 2005
    Mountain View, ca
    Mass I agree with you... the advantage was realized and they got 2 bites of the apple and we cannot help that shea cannot shoot.. :)
     
  19. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's a weird one...

    VAR awarded a penalty to NYRB against Columbus last night -- incident in the 69th minute.

    Veron gets to the endline and cuts it back towards the middle, but his momentum carries him off the field of play. Crew's Mensah slides in, and winds up taking him down with his arms. VAR awards the penalty for a clear takedown.

    But it looks to me like the contact took place beyond the endline, and off the field. Isn't that technically supposed to be a dropped ball, not a penalty?
     
  20. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    Not with the recent changes to the laws of the game. Contact off the field can now be punished with a free kick or a penalty kick as appropriate.
     
    rh89 and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  21. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you have a link to that? I was looking at a 2016-2017 version. Maybe it's brand new, or maybe I just wasn't looking in the right place.
     
  22. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    KCbus repped this.
  23. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanks for that.
     
  24. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Not sure when video will be available, but in the LA-KC match, 1st minute, extremely hard studs up tackle by J Dos Santos on Espinoza. Geiger only goes yellow but he's in perfect position. My gut tells me if that foul happens in the 40th min instead of the 1st it is red. Seemed like pretty clear SFP to me. Geiger had his finger to the earpiece for a while but I suppose that means the VAR was checking but didn't think it was a clear error.
     
  25. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    ATL vs MTL min 25. Cross made by ATL in far side of PA, hits widely outstretched right hand of defender. CR Elfath, just off vertical from the play, waves it off emphatically.

    No VAR review. To me, the left corner is a weak spot for the team to see handling (Thierry Henry), as the AR is more than 50 yds away and has people to look through, while the CR is very close but poorly angled. I believe players know this and are more likely to risk handling in this area- in this case, the defender had his arm extended straight out at 90 degrees, and sure enough there’s no call. Seems like refs should be more willing to use VAR in this area if they realize the limitations of the diagonal system of control there.
     
    Bubba Atlanta repped this.

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