@poetgooner If you want to notify any inconsistency next time, I'd prefer you to comment directly on my blog (you can write without registration) not to interrupt other people discussion here.
That approach is reasonable but I may think you are actually over-engineering it. For example, if Rial's parents were both born Spaniards and everything else remained the same, your formula would classify him as a Spanish player. To me, even with a different nationality for his parents, Rial himself is always Argentine - he was born and became a footballer in Argentina. Also, previously it was a very strange custom for South American nations not to cap players based abroad, which explains their lack of NT games for the home nation as based on external circumstances rather than a real preference for a nation. Cesarini can be considered Italian under strict rule, but I think as a a more natural view to see him as Argentine, it is where he grew up since very young and became a footballer. While he was a very good player, his biggest impact for posterity is as club manager in Argentina.
I would say Perfumo had more footballing quality than Ruggieri, beyond what any club or NT success could indicate. Ruggieri was downright awful against both Colombia in that fateful match and at the entire WC94, he should have been dropped in favor of defenders in much better form such as Nestor Fabbri or Eduardo Berizzo. Or rather move Roberto Sensini to his natural center-back position and play Hernan Diaz or the young Javier Zanetti, already making headlines in Argentina, at right-back. For me, Roberto Ayala and Walter Samuel must be considered all-time great center-backs. Ayala gave a great international performance at WC06 which should elevate him for your standards.
I am sure Omar Sivori is a seventh name written permanently on the list of Argentine legends, he has a profile of all-time greatness placing very high on rankings including those by @Dearman , @Perú FC , @Excape Goat. I always regarded Stabile as the default greatest manager for Argentina NT, am surprised to see an Argentinian fan not think too much of him.
When you disagree on my criteria, you interpret that it is over-engineering. So what if I set table point with agreement by you on my criteria. It will not be over-engineering, that sounds funny for me. Definitely there is no existence of over-engineering in this world since we are talking about criteria of nationalization that need to make it clear, not talking about the intangible materials like which hair between Redondo or Gullit is more beautiful. Parent nationality (race) is undeniably one of factors to identify players' nation. Eusebio also born in Mozambique with African parent (although in colonized era but it is still an African territory) and he became a footballer in Mozambique but he played for only Portugal. Would you not name him in all-time Portugal XI ? In case of Rial, what if he played for Spain in World Cup and won title and he never played for Argentina before ? you remain identify him as an Argentine in all-time national squad ?
When we have disagreed before I didn't interpret it as over-engineering, but this time I must. Ultimately, the best (only?) criteria is asking the individual themselves a question whether he identifies as Argentine or Italian/Spaniard/etc. For example, Mauro Camoranesi always calls himself Argentine despite having won the World Cup with Italy and never been capped by Argentina. Had Rial been able to make an all-time Argentina squad, I would clearly have included him.
Well, now it is quite clearer for me that you can’t imagine how can engineering design cover the criteria properly so you just misinterpret it in very strange way (over-engineering). It actually does cover and the true issue is that you just disagree on my criteria on each factor and race seems not be important enough for you. Identification of citizen is depend on both the born-place and race. Gentile obtained dual citizenship in both Libyan and Italian as he was unexpectedly born in Africa to Italian parent so I think criteria between born-place and parent is fairly equal. Growing nation is also not less important since they‘re absorbed into the culture of that nation. Now let start with football nationalization. To first become club footballer in any nation is not a point since player can be transferred to another nation when they’re young as common when their parent moved to live in another country or they’re offered to play in youth club as a foreign player. First caps is quite important because today you can’t play for more than one nation. The NT appearances must be more important since we’re discussing about all-time national squad that is directly related together. I’m not sure that you’re still in the way if the discussion purpose. Camoranesi said he is more argentine not means he should be considered in all-time Argentine team that is much based on NT football contribution. He was succeed a half of Italian blood so he is endorsed legally as an Italian. My criteria is studied from many cases combined ad it allows Eusebio to be appear in all-time Portugal team, Orsi is all-time Argentina, etc.
Agree with you about Sivori. But I also think that the first argentine superstar in Europe was Raimundo Orsi. I'm with vegan about Stabile, I don't remember him as an innovator or something like that. He had the largest trophhy cabinet, but any good coach will do the same with that core of players.
You are trying to standardize a social concept such as nationality which is a difficult task when conditioned by immigration. In fact it is of a similar constraint as the standardization of education that the US News and World Report attempts every year, although in their case many factors are not formulated anywhere to their true value (the opposite of over-engineering). Rial learned to play football at San Lorenzo de Almagro during all of his youth, along with having been born in Argentina this is enough to deem him completely Argentinian. By the way his parents were both Spaniards, thus according to your formula he should be considered a Spanish player. Mozambique was a Portuguese colony during Eusebio's childhood/youth but I would like to know how you work him out as Portuguese? Mozambique = 3 points ( 1 point each for birth, parents race, growing up) Portugal = 3 points (1 point for first cap, 2 points for NT most frequently represented) It's even score but for me Mozambique has the more significant factors.
This topic is enjoyable for me for discussion. I calculate 50-50 between France and Mozambique for born and growing-nation for Eusebio during the era of colonization. Not likes the behavior study of social influence that many undetectable mind-materials were inaccurately transformed to the survey poll, this social case is considered as an unequivocal tangible task when the regularity of those behaviors is existed. Born-place is nothing to discuss. Race is also implicitly approachable. Growing behavior can be debatable for its periods if any player was growing in more than one country but it is still matched to criteria of time proportion. The learning football in youth career is also experienced by all players and easy to taken into the system. First Caps and NT appearances represents their assumable eligibility and contribution in football, respectively and every factor you mention is also not out of my criteria. At this moment, the discussion should be progressive about how should each factor be weighted.To born in any nation and growing with football learning should not be automatically qualified and that should be highly depend on how much have they impacted on the capped nation. Specially consider about the weight of growing nation that you emphasis, the growing process under a national culture developed your internal identity while race partially represents an external appearance and the born-place is neither internally nor externally influenced on your natural identity and just important in term of law endorsement that is social identity . Now, I set Human internal development in growing process is more identified than race which is as important as born-place in citizenship requirement. In football identification part, I think the weight should be as important as the pre-football period identification since I already said many times that it is directly related to performance consideration in all-time national squad. Previously I set only 10 games to obtain full 2 point but the adjustment will make it more balance. So my new approach sees the increment of growing nation from 1 to 1.5 point and also increase the minimum appearances from 10 to 20 to get a full 2 point. This revision saws Hector Rial as a Argentinian. For Cesarini, the score is way equal so I consider the period of club career and Cesarini played around 6 seasons for both Argentine and Italian club (No appearance record for his club career in Argentina). Anyway his prime was spent during his career in Italy so I finally go for Italy for current assessment. Camoranesi also obtained the same score and he spent his career in Italy as a main part so he is named in Italian squad.
Now I become agree to replace Ruggeri by Perfumo in all-time Argentine XI. I admit I forgot to check the club rating for Perfumo in a related thread here although it is not available in all seasons. Roberto Perfumo 1976 International-Class (Rating below 6.5) 1975 World-Class (3rd Best Player of the ARG League) 1974 Missing 1973 International-Class (Rating 7.4, 5th Best central defender of the BRA League) 1972 Missing 1971 International-Class (Rating 7.2, 3rd Best central defender of the BRA League) 1970 International-Class or National Level (Below top 8 best player at 6.4 point but not know exact rating) 1969 World-Class (2rd Best Player of the ARG League) 1964 - 1968 The period is his NT apperances but no El Grafico rating in the thread Oscar Ruggeri 1985 Missing (made only 13 appearance) 1986 At least International-Class (South American team of the year and 9th South American footballer of the year) 1987 Probably International-Class (He appeared only 18 games below El Grafico standard for calculation). 1988 national Level 1989 World-Class (Don Balon Rating) 1990 national Level 1991 World-Class (South American and Argentine footballer of the year) 1992 International-Class (Rating 6.22, made only 24 appearances) 1993 National Level Although Ruggeri is clearly better in national team performance, his club performance is too fluctuated and got some injury that effected on his body condition. For Perfumo, if all seasons will finally be provided here, I'm inquisitive whether he will be named in top 50 defenders of all-time after re-implementation. As I check Placar thread, I also found to overrate Ancheta, Wilson Piazza and Clodoaldo. Anyway, I'll try to find the 1972 and 1974 season that is unavailable in the thread here.
Very accurate revision as this is in line with the usual standings by Argentine football specialists.
That assessment of Sastre seems me interesting. I agree, of course, but nowadays I think his popularity is quite rundown for being so old, even only by a narrow margin in comparison to the emblematic Moreno and Pedernera. To complete a possible top 10 I'd also mention to Sívori and Passarella as possible very strong options according to the mentioned criteria and then a larger group to take the last 2 places. By the way, Dearman ranks Riquelme as the 13rd best Argentine footballer of all-time, what's your feeling about that and from media in a historical context? I find difficult to see him ahead of Batistuta (15th in his ranking) and I don't think he would have an easy case against Bochini (16th), Labruna (19th) or even Kempes (20th). I'm not sure of how accurate I'm with him, even knowing his entire career in detail.
Sivori might be a good call if we take into account what criteria is applied. I'm not a fan of players that switch to different NT's but that is not what Dearman is interested in. In terms of overall career and skills Sivori is in the discussion. To the question. Riquelme had a remarkable career at Boca Juniors but I feel the league in his days was watered down as it is now. He never settled at Barcelona but did excel at Villarreal. As a playmaker and free kick specialist he was brilliant. For the NT he never left any special mark for Argentina in my view. He had his moments but nothing that really stood out. In my view Kempes is in a different class as world champ being the main weapon that delivered the title. Plus he had a successful career abroad and at home even if he declined relatively young. Labruna was a legendary scorer with incredible longevity. He marked an era at River. Batistuta is also in a different class at NT level. Two different type of players but Batigol performed well and decided finals for the NT. He was also very good in Italian football when Serie A was stronger than it is now. I find it difficult that Riquelme was better than them. Maybe he can have a case with Bochini but again el bocha was the driving force behind Independiente's success in an era where Argentine football was probably stronger.
Riquelme is rated below Batistuta is both domestic career and international country while he is also far better in international club football and enough to get equal rating in my evaluation (Batistuta to be rated higher is easily acceptable). Riquelme led the team to win the 2000 Intercontinental club and was defeated by Bayern in extra time for the 2001 competition. He was really a main reason why Villareal was incredibly successful in the 2005 UCL, almost reaching the final match. Batistuta had few opportunity to play in int.club, he will be too lucky if anyone think it is not his guilty and ignore to issue the disadvantage of him for the limited chances. Bochini is even a worse case. He had not much opportunity in int.country part and a few games he played didn't indicate his potential enough to make a tend that he should be more superb than what Riquelme did if he was given more chances. I think Kempes is one of the most loved player in Argentina should not be represented his entire career well. If anybody have a preference to rate player mainly based on people's recognition through the succeeding cultural regard, that is fine if you're happy to do, I'm afraid that it will not be matched to what I have worked and let understand we're talking in different minor topics.
Everything is fair. I understand your rating system, tends to be much more pragmatic and it's difficult to refute in that sense, but the comment had to do with the feeling that leaves a punctual result from outside your structure. My feeling is that Batistuta reached higher levels even in international club football level (especially in 1999-00 UEFA Champions League), but it only makes sense if I separate them of the progress of their teams and I understand that this is a complicated idea to introduce into a classification system. On Bochini, apart from what has been said, my conflict is subjective, of course, but I can't ignore it and has to do with his abilities, more or less the same as Riquelme as pure playmaker, but with more speed (even in a slower context) and better adaptation to different tactical systems (he could play for the center, for the side or even as a dominating support striker), all that on the basis of as or more regular career in terms of longevity (1973-1984) and in an apparent better daily competition (idea that I share with Vegan10). I agree that the love for Kempes due to his World Cup hero status tends to overrate his prominence with respect to his entire career in the popular opinion, but even being more drastic I think it would be complicated to say that his level in Spain wasn't equal or better than that of Riquelme (even if Valencia didn't reach the same historic instance in the European Cup as a "smaller" club). It's not my intention to divert the focus from your work and, yes, we're talking in different minor topics, but it's just quite interesting to me to review feelings starting from your rating system.
Kempes is also rated higher than Riquelme in both Domestic and Int. Country but likes the case of Batistuta, he was not a legend in int. club football. Note that the limitation of opportunity in my rating system neither overrate nor underrate players since the criteria is applied to players only amount based on to their appearances. For Example, Kempes's int club criteria is just 12.5 %, Batistuta is at 16 % and Riquelme obtained its maximum capacity at 25 %. The study remains indicating Riquelme is a higher rated player. The score and criteria structure for each player can be found in http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-evaluated-scorecards.html
Overall I agree with your rankings, however, I think that Juan Roman Riquelme does earn some points for NT performance, winning the Youth WC, the Olympics, and at senior level, he was the second best playmaker at WC06 after Zinedine Zidane, and a great CA07 which unfortunately ended in disappointment. Still I would not include him in a historical top 20 for Argentina. I am a fan of the @Dearman 's work, it's a unique undertaking in football history. I do agree with your point that possibly Gabriel Batistuta's international club career can be regarded at least of similar level to Riquelme's. It's a crucial requirement to distinguish individual level from club achievements. Batistuta played in Serie A during its heyday for a small team, Riquelme found success at a Boca Juniors that was overstacked in relation to the rest of the Argentine league, featuring players of international projection such as Jose Basualdo, Oscar Cordoba, Nolberto Solano, Jorge Bermudez, Mauricio Serna, Walter Samuel, Rodolfo Arruabarrena, Hugo Ibarra, Diego Cagna, Julio Cesar Caceres, Claudio Morel Rodriguez, Martin Palermo, Sebastian Battaglia, Fabian Vargas, Rolando Schiavi, Marcelo Delgado, Guillermo Barros Schelotto, Roberto Abbondanzieri, Nicolas Burdisso, Carlos Tevez, Rodrigo Palacio, Fernando Gago, Ever Banega, Clemente Rodriguez, Federico Insua, Daniel Diaz, Federico Roncaglia, Agustin Orion, Neri Cardozo. No other team in the league had such consistency of talent across several seasons since at least the 1980s. I could not find the scorecards for any of Kempes, Bochini, Batistuta or Riquelme.
What would be your top 20? I couldn't be so accurate to do a ranking right now, but I could speculate on some tiers: 01. Alfredo Di Stéfano 01. Diego Maradona 01. Lionel Messi 04. José Manuel Moreno 05. Antonio Sastre 05. Adolfo Pedernera 05. Omar Sívori 05. Daniel Passarella 09. Raimundo Orsi 09. Luis Monti 09. Ángel Labruna 09. Ricardo Bochini 09. Mario Kempes 09. Ubaldo Fillol 09. Gabriel Batistuta 16. Carlos Peucelle 16. Rinaldo Martino 16. René Pontoni 16. Félix Loustau 16. Néstor Rossi 16. Amadeo Carrizo 16. José Sanfilippo 16. Omar Corbatta 16. Luis Artime 16. Norberto Alonso 16. Fernando Redondo 16. Javier Zanetti 16. Hernán Crespo 16. Juan Sebastián Verón 16. Juan Román Riquelme I couldn't rate accurately to Manuel Seoane neither any pre 1920's player. I've doubts about Bernabé Ferreyra, Francisco Varallo, José Salomón, Enrique García, Silvio Marzolini, Roberto Perfumo, Miguel Ángel Brindisi, René Houseman and a few more for the latter group, but is the best representative I can imagine about my own feelings. I'd have Riquelme in a borderline for a top 20-30. I also.
I guess that's the hard part, to separate both ideas when that depends almost exclusively of a personal taste, which departs from what is a pragmatic system (what needs more group success data as facts to set arguments and ordered calculations). I also find interesting his positions for Brazilians. Riquelme (29th - Offensive Midfielders): 76.1 Bochini (31st - Offensive Midfielders): 75.8 Batistuta (13th - Striker): 75.8 Kempes (36th - Forwards): 75.2
Your ranking is very akin to how I would rank the all-time Argentine greats, a rough draft below. Diego Maradona Jose Manuel Moreno Lionel Messi Alfredo DiStefano Antonio Sastre Adolfo Pedernera Omar Sivori Daniel Passarella Luis Monti Manuel Seoane Amadeo Carrizo Ubaldo Fillol Fernando Redondo Raimundo Orsi Felix Loustau Enrique Garcia Silvio Marzolini Ricardo Bochini Mario Kempes Osvaldo Ardiles Javier Zanetti Roberto Perfumo Angel Labruna Claudio Caniggia Daniel Bertoni Gabriel Batistuta Nestor Rossi Guillermo Stabile Carlos Peucelle Rene Pontoni Rinaldo Martino Juan Roman Riquelme Juan Sebastian Veron Hugo Gatti Jose Salomon Ariel Ortega Roberto Ayala Carlos Bianchi Ernesto Lazzatti Jose Sanfilippo
His system accounts for team success by the "limitation of opportunity". I just wish @Dearman was not so Euro-centric. They are all very close to another, which is also my view but I would rate Riquelme with the lowest score overall.
Now it's a little early time to update world annual award of the century of the 2016 - 2017 season after Portugal was defeated in semi-final match, no Chilean or German player is considered to be one of top three best players in this seasonal year. http://xtrahistory.blogspot.com/2013/01/Annual-Best-Player.html Messi's score is highest for this year. The main point effect on Cristiano Ronaldo is his injury, making 29 appearances in La Liga and only 2 games in Copa Del Rey. The criteria allowed 90 % of total league appearance to get the full amount and if not just calculate the mean value (For Example, 90 % of 38 games = 34, Cristiano Appearances = 29, % participation = (34+29)/2/34 = 92.5 % However, the ranking is highly depend on criteria designation. I set Quarter-Final in 85 % of participation. If I reduce it to 80 %, Cristiano Ronaldo will turn to win the first place but I think 85 % is fair to prevent international-class players with a superb teammate circumstance take advantage of participation amount too conveniently. As usual, European and Americas annual best player are updated. http://xtrahistory.blogspot.com/2014/01/Europe.html http://xtrahistory.blogspot.com/2014/01/Americas.html Another revolutionized update is "All-Time Turkish Squad" that is rare in knowledge transfer. Anyway, I think it's time that Arda Turan is deserved to be the greatest Turkish footballer of all-time and only Can Bartu and Zeki Riza Sporel could be debatable as strong candidates. The all-time Turkish XI has been alternated by 4 midfielders and changed formation from 3-4-3 to 4-1-3-2. http://xtralegend.blogspot.com/2013/01/Turkey.html