Wow. The two of you write a lot. Not that much of it makes sense. Besides stop it... you're turning it into a another Messi vs CR7 bashathon. This is supposed to be a thread about finally getting past that era. This thread is not about Messi vs CR7. I repeated it just in case you continue spamming. I honestly don't remember a single post from either on you on the subject of the thread title.@
The "one game = miles ahead" idiot makes an unfunny joke, as usual. And LMAO at artielange84 - does he ever actually say anything worth-while? I only ever see him complain and bitch and moan, via the rep button mostly, as he doesn't even appear to have the energy to complain with actual words (let alone with actual arguments).
It's not just one game. It's a lot of games, Ronaldo being on track to winning La Liga and possibly the CL, Ronaldo scoring 5 goals vs Bayern, while Messi flopped hard in the CL knockout stage. All that combined means CR7 was miles ahead. Messi made up some distance, but unless CR7 throw their minimal La Liga lead Messi will not win this dual. It's called realism, mr Fanboy Eyes Wide Shut.
You mean Barca and RM...you are speaking about individuals as if they were teams . In La Liga Ronaldo has 1 more open play goal than Morata.
Not Zahzah's exact quote but Ronaldo scored 5 goals vs. Bayern Munich and Messi scored 0 goals against Juventus, both games were in quarter finals of the biggest football competition in the world. How does this relate to Morata scoring against the likes of Deportivo where ironically Ronaldo doesnt even make the bench? Are we at that stage of just throwing random facts that got nothing to do with anything. A year ago it was a sin to score against poor teams now it is a good thing as it shows consistency!!! Can we use the same logic for Aubemeyang, Lewandowski, and others, I'm sure every now and then the score in crucial league games.
That's irrelevant. First off no-one makes distinctions between open play / non open play goals when voting. Secondly Ronaldo is being rested much more in La Liga. He's not playing against scrubs where he would likely score some goals. Ronaldo is very much being played for trophies, not for Pichichis. Secondly CR7's CL form in the knockout stage far outweighs Messi's contributions. You guys are blinded by fanboyism. Just prior to the Real Madrid - Barcelona game CR7 was odds on favorite to win. And like I said Messi caught up ground after the Bernabeu win, but CR7 was still ahead. As it stands the only thing Messi can do to catch up on Ronaldo is pad his stats and he's doing just that. Even the La Liga is beyond his control - Real win all their remaining games and the deal is done. CR7 meanwhile can't catch up to Messi on stats, but he can win meaningful team trophies. Besides - stop it already. This isn't a Messi vs CR7 thread.
I've already shown that Ronaldo has scored very little open play goals vs the top 10 in La Liga. Most of his goals are already against the bottom 10 clubs. I called out @zahzah on it when he said, dishonestly, that Messi was stat padding. You can check my post a few pages back. Before the Bayern game, Ronaldo was probably miles behind Messi. Weak La Liga performances and basically no show in CL. With one tie, he is suddenly miles ahead. How is that any logical ? I guess we can just say the only thing that matters is the CL and everything else is irrelevant. Because that's what it sounds like. Sorry @zahzah, but you said this isn't a Messi vs CR7 thread and then posted this right afterwards. If you're going to say let's stop talking about it, you should stop yourself.
come on guys im not a Ronaldo fanboy but he definitely did not pull a no show in the CL this season. Had he not scored that free kick vs Sporting Real probably wouldnt make it out the group.
Quiet by his standards is certainly not the same as "no show", and I'm not even sure that "quiet by his standards" is an apt description. He's not being consistent this season but he is consistently turning it up when it matters most. @Afghan-Juventus's reference was mention of that, his performances against Bayern, and he was pivotal in the tie against Napoli, with a great game in the first leg (although nobody will mention or know this because he didn't score). Against Barca you mentioned yourself that he played well despite not scoring. Considering all that, in reference to your point of it being illogical, I don't disagree it being illogical with CR7 now being considered "way ahead". That I'd disagree with but CR7 being ahead is not illogical due to his direct importance/contributions to Real's success this seasons, as noted in the previous paragraph, of which was clearly noted when he scored 5 goals in a tie against arguably their most direct rivals to regaining the CL title. Naturally, this would elevate general opinion of his Ballon chances considerably, with this contrast with Messi pushed even moreso due to Messi's performances/results at the same stage of the competition, which only served to significantly lower his chances.
Fair enough. He wasn't a no show in the CL. Messi's group phase was stronger, but Ronaldo was good vs Napoli without scoring and then put in striker goals vs Bayern (although 2 of those goals really shouldn't have stood). I just don't agree with disregarding individual league performance so easily. Even if RM wins La Liga, Messi has been head and shoulders above Ronaldo there. Without Messi Barca probably wouldn't even be in 2nd still with a shot at the title. Without Ronaldo I could actually argue RM could still be leading.
He's scored or assisted as much goals as Messi: 13. But 7 of those were in the knockout phase, while Messi only had 1 and it was a doubtful PK (as you so love the open play thingie).
And again... CR7 vs Messi in a non-CR7 vs Messi thread. OBSESSION! No one said he was a no-show in the CL. He was a no-show in the CL knockout stage. Barca was always making it out of their group. Way too easy. Besides it was last year. Messi's group was easier? ROTFL. Barcelona had the easiest group save for A and G. Celtic was making up the numbers, Borussia Monchengladbach was the easiest oponent from Germany in years and Manchester City their only real opponent. Ronaldo had Borussia Dortmund which has more CL pedigree than Man City, Sporting which has more CL pedigree than Monchengladbach and Legia, which was like Celtic. Ronaldo is of an age where he isn't expected to get mad scoring stats. What counts is when and where he scores them. p.s. One of those goals.shouldn't have stood. And they were not all 'striker goals' (whatever that means, but I gather it was a poorly hidden jab).
I think you made a lot of good points in the whole post you made in particular. however, from what i remember, Cr7 ''consistently turning up when it matters most'' is relative to the champions league. i definitely agree that Cr7 has been the most decisive and memorable player in champions league. in terms of the league, that's another matter and messi would clearly win in that category. however, the vast majority of people will remember champions league games and not league games unless it's an el classico. so even if messi was the best player and difference maker on 6-7 occasions in the league against lower opposition not named madrid, Cr7s 2 performances against bayern munich would completely blow it out of the water for the vast majority of people because of the perception of what the champions league in the QF means, regardless of the team. we can see Cr7s performance last year against wolfsburg, despite barcelona winning the league and Cr7 not showing in the SF or Finals of champions league. the world player of the year award is a subjective award and there is no clear criteria for how people should vote, or it has not been stated. so if madrid win the champions league, then i may not agree that he should win it (world player of the year) but i would not say it is undeserved. all this depends on the criteria we use. if the award is about consistency week in, week out then Cr7 should not win it. but if it is being stand out in the most memorable matches, then Cr7 would deserve to win the trophy. and for this reason, i believe that there is so much arguing going on between us which can honestly never be solved because we are not looking at the core reasoning for our stance. i suppose the tricky part is trying to determine how much weight does a champions league knockout tie deserve over a league match and how many league matches. is 1 or 2 ties in the CL worth more than a player who has been by far and away the best player in the league?
I feel the narrative so far has been pretty much pro-Argentinian over at Juventus, but I think Buffon would be the most deserving.
to be honest, i just don't see it. not because you are wrong but rather because of the perception of the media and the general population as who should be the best player in the world. remeber, neuer had a pretty good case in 2014, and that was after winning the world cup. oliver kahn also had a case in 2002. both keepers were immense, and i believe both keepers had more publicity than buffon currently has. and even after all that, they fell short. i think if buffon were to win it, he would have to have a far greater showing than what he has had so far. and the problem is, when you are in front of a defense that is very stable, you are not likely to make a huge number of saves that puts you far above the rest of your teammates. and for this reason, even if juventus won, i still think either messi or ronaldo would have a better chance of winning the world player of the year over buffon. honestly, even if juventus won it, so far, i don't think any juventus player would have a chance of winning it so far. however, things could change. and stepping away from facts and entering into the world of reality, media, and perception, which can be false at times, i only see dybala having a chance of making the top 3.
Not a shot. No way is the player to usurp the unprecedented Messi/CR7 dominance a 40 year old goalkeeper, a position that hasn't won the award for half a century now, who doesn't even have an absolute claim to being the best in his position. Plus, how will anyone make money with Buffon? The world is just looking for more reasons to cash in on the Mbappe speculation. If Monaco win the CL AND Mbappe plays a decisive role, especially in the final, AND Barcelona lose La Liga, then I would go as far to say he'd be the front runner. At that rate, CR7 and Messi would both lose the competitions where they clearly contributed the most, CL and La Liga, respectively. This all while assuming Monaco will pip PSG to the title, a very impressive feat. I currently think they have the potential to win the competition but will wait for their first leg against Juventus before being fully convinced.
I would only remind people that the award has split again. This means that journalists could very well vote for someone else to win, much like they did for Sneijder in 2010.
I'd think Lewandowski has a chance. He regularly scores for Bayern and Poland, and almost never misses a competitive game. I read that he missed only 5 point matches in the last 10 years, one of which happen to be first semi v. Real, which proved quite crucial. However, he may need to either propel Bayern to finally win the CL (for which I think Bayern will not be a favorite next year - Robben and Ribery are only getting older), or make incredible WC for Poland (on Euro he disappointed a bit, but his role was a bit different during this tournament). If neither happens, another Bundesliga top scorer crown may just be not enough. Another guy to get it could be Grizmann, but I am not sure where will he move next year, and if he moves. However, if Atletico wins CL this year, I would not exclude him even for 2017 title, especially, if France does well in qualifiers for WC. Mbappe probably has to be on the circus some longer before he has a go at it, even if Monaco was to win CL this year...
Well, like I said, it's the journalists voting and no players/coaches, so the chance of something different happening is higher IMO. Like I said, a number of things would need to happen. Juve winning the CL with Buffon making some key saves. He already got some media from his Barca games. You're right that he does have a good defense in front of him. If RM lose in the SFs or Final and Ronaldo doesn't do much after the Bayern game, I can see it happening. Even if RM wins La Liga, if you look at it, it will be his weakest season stats wise and you will have a player who outperformed him by a good margin there including in the head to head game. I don't think Monaco wins the CL, but Mbappe would need to go nuts in the next 3 games and still I don't think it would happen. He'd have to make fools out of defenders R9 style. How will who make money ? Why would journalists give a damn ? I can see them giving it to Buffon as almost a life time achievement award and the "overexposure" of Ronaldo/Messi winning the award.
Messi is the only player in history who can play like the video above demonstrates, but still be (for some reason) regarded as "going downhill early." I'm pretty sure that nobody would be saying the same of Cristiano Ronaldo, if Ronaldo could still dribble like he did in his 2011-2013 days. But with Messi, anything below "best season ever" is disappointing and/or evidence of his decline.
R9 2002/03 was better than CR7, both in La Liga and the Champions League. Nobody was speaking about Ronaldo being "way ahead" after R9 scored 3 goals against the best team in the world at the time, Manchester United, at Old Trafford to add. Ronaldo then scored a crucial goal and produced a PK in the Semi Finals vs. the second or third best team in the world at the time, Juventus. Luis Figo failed to score from the PK spot, which is why Real Madrid didn't win 'La Decima' in 2003. Again: nobody was elevating R9 to "miles ahead of the rest" status before the Semi Finals were played, nor after the Semi Finals were played. My opinion is: within the irrational modern context, it is rational that Ronaldo is "ahead" in the race for the Ballon d'Or. But in objective terms, in realistic terms, and in 'common sense' terms, Ronaldo has not been a Top 3 player this season, let alone "miles ahead" in the race for an award that is supposed to go to the best player in the world. As a fan of the sport, I refuse to enable irrationality for the sake of rationalizing irrationality: it is objectively irrational that Ronaldo gets the credit he gets because he can do something that prime Inzaghi would also do without a problem. It is without precedent and irrational that a player who can't dribble and who can't score a lot of open-play goals, certainly not enough open-play goals to even begin to entertain the idea that his lack of dribbling ability and his lack of "create end product out of nothing" ability, should be ignored or downplayed because he is so great at scoring goals. It is without precedent and irrational that such a player is considered "miles ahead" of Messi and Hazard, who have been very superior throughout the season. NOTE: How was Ronaldo 'good' against Barcelona? Not scoring any goals, not assisting any goals, and failing to score an easy 'tap in' goal, is good now? Nobody before CR7 would get 'good' qualifications for such a performance. Bottom line: if CR7 vs. Barcelona 2016/17 (home game) was good, then by the same logic Messi vs. Chelsea 2011/12 (home and away games) was great. I'm pretty sure that Ronaldo fans would object to Messi vs. Chelsea 2011/12 getting a 'great' qualification, for what clearly was not a 'great' performance. Ronaldo is basically getting 'good' grades, for doing what Romario did vs. Italy at the World Cup 1994 Final. The difference is: Romario didn't get a 'good' grade. Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 didn't get a good grade. But when Cristiano Ronaldo does it, it somehow gets a good grade, i.e. he worked hard; he was involved throughout the game; he looked like he could've scored at any point in the game, looked dangerous throughout (even though he failed to score an easy tap in goal); etc. I honestly cannot remember any other player, past or present, who consistently was as easily excused as Ronaldo is. At this rate, it's impossible for Ronaldo to be bad, because he needs to be invisible and do nothing if he is to have a 'bad' grade. And it's difficult to be as great as Ronaldo is, and play on the best team in the world, and be invisible and do nothing - therefore Ronaldo will be 'good' provided he looks like he looked vs. Barcelona. Honestly, I challenge you to mention me any other player whose role is (or was) primarily to score goals, who (1) failed to score an easy tap in that would've likely decided the game, (2) didn't completed one single dribbling run, (3) did not scored any goals, (4) did not assisted any goals.