Kaka as good as Ronaldinho in 2005/06?

With the money they have they havent been competitive in the CL for more than half a decade now. No club no matter how big or rich is guaranteed to compete, just look City after 10 years almost with all that oil money they arent even close to the elites of Europe.

I havent kept up much with Pogba this season however it seems like he isnt being used properly by Mourinho similar to Deschamps. Not to mention he doesnt have world class midfielders such as Marchisio, Vidal, Pirlo, or Khedira (world classish) to dictate the game for him.

 

i do watch juventus games but i am pretty sure you watch them much more consistently than i do. so i can't judge pogba based on his performances week in, week out.
however, asking pogba, still a relatively young player to cover the gap left by vidal, pirlo, and marchisio, that's asking a lot!!! and i don't think we should confuse winners mentality with ability. because as much as vidal has a winning mentality, there is no way in hell that he could carry a midifeld on his own. pogba has a far better chance in my opinion. honestly, i can see a player like vidal, and i often do, losing his cool and getting too caught up in fouling and arguing with other players, when he is playing on a team with as many starts as bayern munich has.

i did see some games where Pogba and Dybala played very well together at juventus. at times, where the 2 of them would take over the offense

 

off the top of my head i can give you 3 performances from 05-06

05/06
vs madrid at bernabeu
vs osasuna at camp nou (4th place in league)
vs chelsea r16 at camp nou

 

The ones in bold, with all due respect, do not impress me much. Certainly not at the same level that Ronaldinho displayed vs. Real Madrid (one time only, but still), AC Milan, and Chelsea.

Furthermore, one of my big problems with the premise of this thread is that Kaka at his best was basically arguably as good as any player that has ever played the game. Same for Ronaldinho. Any differences between Kaka at his best and other players at their best, are created on the basis of vague and at times subjective factors such as: (1) Kaka never showed his best at the World Cup; (2) Kaka's technique was not as great; (2) Kaka depended too much on his speed and the space to exploit said speed; (3) Kaka's dribbling was great because of the speed, but take out the speed and he actually wasn't a great dribbler; etc. And my opinion is as follows: in terms of the arbitrary and subjective policies that are used to elevate players like Zidane, Pirlo, Maradona, and other players who fit that criteria--Ronaldinho certainly was a greater peak than Kaka. On the other hand, if we're honest with ourselves, there's close to nothing non-subjective that can separate Kaka at his best from Messi at his best. It's only when we begin to play the role of know-it-all-critics, that all of these rather pedantic difficult-to-measure factors come into play. Technically speaking, Ronaldinho was a superior dribbler, passer, and technician. Objectively speaking, Kaka at his best didn't really needed to be a better passer, nor a better technician, nor a better dribbler: he was as good as anybody's ever been at the Champions League.

 

and when you said performances, i'm not just talking about playing a good game. i'm talking about performing all over the pitch for the majority of the game and clearly outshining everybody else on the pitch. to the point that there is no debate about it. apparently, your standards for kaka are different.
i just don't see any way that kaka came close in the liverpool match in 04/05 or manchester united in 06/07 or against munich 06/07 in milan. i don't remember deportivo 04, i have to see that match again

i understand that kaka scored 2 vital goals against man. u in 06/07 but there is a reason, i did not put ronaldinho's performance against chelsea in 04/05 where he scored 2 goals and had a pretty good performance. or the match against ac milan in 05/06 at the san siro where he also played well. i'm talking about performances where he was unanimously the best player, even in addition to goals scored, if any.

honestly, it seems like you are merely stating games where he scored rather than games that were on a caliber that ronaldinho could not reach or rarely reached

 

that's not saying much. in any case, i highly doubt you will find one person on this forum who will say that kaka had a supreme perofrmance in the 2005 CL final. as a matter of fact, i'd like to know of any source who even gives kaka a 9/10 for the 2005 CL final.

are we talking 2006/2007 or are we talking about the greatest performances of each player??? i agree he played very well. but he didn't have a single performance that i would rate on the same level as ronaldinho's best performances.

you cannot be serious

 

I've got to be honest (and consistent with what I already said, but pretty much what I thought live too albeit without thinking of a number) - I do/did rate Kaka's 2005 Final as a 9/10 performance to be honest. Maybe there are arguments it might not be (the first half was a better display of course) but I do think that one was a really great performance by him.

Not wanting to get involved really, but thought I should say that. I'd tend to be on the side of the fence which sees Ronaldinho as a better player even so I suppose.

 

I've registered in this forum just to join this conversation.

I've seen that people went from Kaka to Cristiano Ronaldo, and even Pogba. (Why is that, by the way?)

Unfortunately I do not agree with you, I do not think football specialists agree with you (nor even in Brazil) - Kaka was not as good as Ronaldinho was, Kaka at his prime was not as good as Ronaldinho was at his prime, there is no such comparison, whether at passing, shooting, running - he was not as good as Ronaldinho.

I do understand your point there but in such context that's somewhat of a bogus comparison 'didn't really need' - these things have to be measured correctly, otherwise we will begin comparing Weah to Adriano - and believe me, nowadays people knowledge regarding football is so mediocre that we should not estimulate these perceptions.

Just to ensure that we are having a serious conversation, I do believe Ronaldinho was a great player, one of the best of his generation, he was extremely popular and is probably responsible for a lot of football hype and interest after 2007, but he is not someone that should be considered better than Rivaldo, for instance, popularity does not count when talking about the professional person he was.
(The comparison with Rivaldo is for everybody to understand how a popular player compares with a less popular player with same or even better skills and historical impact)

If you should give a number for the following skills, from 0 to 20, comparing Kaka and Ronaldinho, how would you do? At their peak.
(It's just a small research I'm doing regarding overall perception of player skills)

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Code:

Type		Ronaldinho	Kaka
Acceleration		14	17
Top Speed		13	15
Speed dribling		17	14
Passing accuracy	16	15
Passing vision		16	16
Passing speed		17	14
Passing risk		17	15
Passing impact		17	15
Shooting accuracy	16	14
Shooting speed		17	15
Shooting decision	18	10
Shooting risk		11	15
Shooting pattern	6	18
Pace impact		16	17
Match impact		17	15

Speed dribling - how good at dribling in high speed
Passing decision - how fast takes the decision to pass
Passing risk - how much risk is put in the passes (is it common to try harder passes and/or bad positioning passes?)
Passing impact - how often does these passes lead to an important event
Shooting decision - skill level of verifying goalkeeper and or defender positioning and how it affects the shot
Shooting risk - how much risk is put in the shots (is it common to try harder shots and/or bad positioning shots?)
Shooting pattern - how predictable the shot is (just like Robben index: right luring, left cleaning and shooting)
Pace impact - how the match pace is affected if player receives the ball in midfield (defenders desperation?)
Match impact - how the player impacts the match in favor of the club

 

on some level, i understand the point your trying to make. at the moment, i wouldn't say that there has been any one player that has been the best player for the majority of games that his team has played in the knockout stages of the champions league. however, i would say that Messi comes closest. in 14/15, in the R16, both games against Man City, you could easily say that he was the best player on either team. In the semifinal against Bayern Munich, the 1st leg? we all know that story. in the final, he played well but did not stand out as usual. However, he did have the dribble and the shot that gave suarez an easy tap in for the winning goal. and if it isn't enough, he gave the 3rd assist to Neymar who ended up scoring the 3rd goal.

the performances of kaka in 06/07 generally stack up as a campaign that is up there with the best. however, when you say that at his best, kaka, didn't need to be a better passer, technician, or better dribbler, i'm not sure that's the case. of course, every game is different and in some games, you won't get plenty of space to create dribbling opportunities for your team. just look at ronaldinho's pass against ac milan that decided that game. i think 06/07 is a different story as ronaldinho was downhill since world cup 2006. i'm not saying kaka can't pass because he definitely can but not on the same level as ronaldinho. and take nothing away from kaka because overall, his performances in the champions league at his best, probably rank among those of the highest level.

maybe i am misunderstanding you or i don't get the point you're trying to make.