@PDG1978 It's always nice when you come accidentally across some terrific stuff. This is Ron Atkinson, 13 December 1979. Who tried to objectively answer a subjective question. Of course there's a subjective element to it and if you read carefully there's a slight difference with Hill's interpretation on both players (but like I said, precisely because of Hill his all-round career it makes his analysis interesting, with the benefit of hindsight). Ron Atkinson was back then manager of West Bromwich Albion From wikipedia: In 1978–79, the team finished third in Division One, their highest placing for over 20 years, and also reached the UEFA Cup quarter-final, where they were defeated by Red Star Belgrade.[29] The team around this time was notable for simultaneously fielding three black players: Cyrille Regis, Laurie Cunningham and Brendon Batson; and is considered to be an integral part of the acceptance of black footballers in the English leagues. Longer article: http://sabotagetimes.com/football/three-degrees-men-changed-british-football-forever Keegan had - as said above - one of his best years and the more so for the England national team. Cruijff had just played with the Los Angeles Aztecs in September and October against e.g. Chelsea, Birmingham and PSG back on European soil. This article is a true gem imho.
@PDG1978 @comme Here's one from slightly earlier that year (October 1979) which provides a good idea of what he was doing. Hill had an occassional piece in there (see remarks at the bottom), that's why I found out. After this, they opened up to readers requests.
Yeah, nice to see that - I'd not have seen those sorts of things at the time as I was too young, but that was in Football Weekly and not Shoot anyway I think you mean? If the scoring seemed generous, it was still clear from his piece for two International class full-backs that getting towards maximum was reserved for great players so he's rated Keegan very highly there, and not seemed to knock Cruyff down many notches from prime version (not much scope for it with those marks). But yeah he did indicate it was Cruyff he counted as an ATG and say he was surprised he gave Keegan the same total for those (regular) categories).
Yes it was in Match Weekly. Maybe I had seen it before somehow but because J.H. had a regular piece in there I found it. Given that he rates both players still high for stamina it can be that his comments for 'temperament' and 'tackling' refer a bit to the "Gerrard 120mph" debate. Always dive in and go full throttle vs a slightly more considered approach, although Atkinson does seem to implicate a difference in the "big matches" (indeed, very good G+A assists numbers against e.g. Liverpool, Madrid, PSV in then-recent years). It shows Keegan was rated highly at the end of 1979 (although with reservations) and the other too until his departure to the USA at least. Anyway, we discussed those win percentage numbers, consistent semi final appearances, goals + assists in the advanced stages etc. already a couple of times but this was a nice article and dissection. A nice mix between trying to mention the consensus and his own view (I bet most, including Hill, would rate 'teamwork' the other way around and vice versa).
It's hard when trying to use only 10 grades (even though that is traditional at least in England especially for match grades); I am used to having 20 available on Championship Manager/Football Manager for example; and being restricted to those categories (no specific 'dribbling' for example) but probably from my own impressions/knowledge I'd just give Heading to Keegan and Temperament and Stamina might be debateable. Perhaps everything else to Cruyff, at least if more marks were used to differenciate more; although what exactly 'right side' means I'm not sure but Mills didn't get maximum on his best side. Obviously Atkinson was seeing Keegan in real time though to be fair, but does still hint as I said it's Cruyff he rates highest ultimately (even if he wouldn't adjust those scores for that exercise). But yeah Atkinson surprised himself by putting Keegan level on points, while in a similar exercise for Dalglish and Keegan that you posted, the German player (Bonhof was it?) felt he'd been harsh on Dalglish possibly - anyway I guess as you've hinted you've found different analysis/verdict from British sources as compared to that one which favoured Keegan. One way of seeing Atkinson's scores might be Keegan being among the best in the world and Cruyff still likewise - as although he doesn't seem to have knocked Cruyff down much from what his prime version would score (my comments above might be more about prime version but probably the differences wouldn't be huge), he does seem to be comparing them in the present tense (or 'recent' tense at least).
Re: 'Teamwork' though probably I was thinking also in terms of in possession team-work (Atkinson does give a nice description of the ways Keegan could also be good at this though - combination play etc) - I'd have to re-check but Football Manager uses some other categories for this - certainly for off-the-ball and ofc passing/vision etc already overlap for on the ball teamwork which might be separated out from workrate anyway. Concentrating on workrate, then yes for reasons you describe re: Gerrard Puck, Keegan might be ahead on my scorecard for that too even if only to illustrate his 'busy' style of play.
Of course you have seen Onze Mondial their 1995 readers poll, but I came across a January 1980 readers poll too, by the Onze magazine. Interesting is that they asked there two different questions. One was about "most popular" as the title on top of the page said, the other about "the best". In the "most popular" ('which player do you love the most?') Piazza, Keegan, Muller and Beckenbauer finished ahead of Cruijff. In fact, Muller and Beckenbauer were twice as popular as Cruijff (in percentage-points). But with the question, to the same 'Onze Mondial' readers, "who do you perceive as the best?" Cruijff made a jump in the rankings and finished one percentage-point behind Beckenbauer (but way ahead of the rest). Alas, it was just a readers poll and maybe I'll put it in the thread if I can't find something better. It's not exactly what I'm looking for in terms of 1950s to 1970s great players lists (with the 1995 results in mind too, where Platini ran away with 74% of the vote). So I make a note and photograph of it and will search further. edit: these recent comments by Stoichkov maybe fit into the same kind of idea? http://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2017/03/14/58c7f6ace2704eff4a8b4629.html
That's maybe slightly surprising to me, in that I might have expected their own players (Platini, Rocheteau?) and forward flair players (Cruyff, Kempes?) to come out on top for most popular in a French readers poll.
Platini and Rocheteau were not included among the foreign players. The French players got listed separately. Kempes was 3 percentage points behind in popularity.
Ah, ok thanks - I understand now and it probably makes sense to deal with domestic and foreign players with different questions. Kempes 3 percentage points behind Cruyff sorry, or Beckenbauer/Muller? EDIT - I realise it is behind Cruyff now (as only Piazza and Keegan were ahead otherwise I think - Piazza playing in France too of course).
I don't mean to annoy you but I got my hand on this surprisingly interesting yearbook (found in a second hand bookshop). Published May 1980. Some info about the author: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/s...ternet-there-were-the-complete-handbooks.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zander_Hollander https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/...r-sports-trivia-shepherd-dies-at-91.html?_r=0 It has some positively surprising tidbits, as well as a few lists in there (with an introduction that I like). Examples. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8697346.stm
It's ok - I don't want you to think you annoy me or feel you have to hesitate to share things when you want to. Sorry if at times I don't respond extensively enough - I maybe feel I don't like to just say something pointless when I don't have something to add value to a thread, and also that I might try to post a bit less (but sometimes surely fail on both counts lol!), but definitely at times for example I have read what you've posted when tagging me or replying to me and thought it was really good to see but just added a rep or something rather than a comment. Of course it's good when others get involved and I don't want to be too much of a regular contributor always, but feel free to keep on asking me things etc - I should be appreciative that you want to really. I didn't watch it all yet, but I had a look on Youtube and found this (I'd not heard of him before and it's good to find out about hidden stars etc - perhaps a top 5 player in the USA in some years at least then too judging by what you posted - the recognition for Cruyff is not surprising of course, but interesting Alan Ball was regarded so highly there too (above Beckenbauer and Carlos Alberto in that particular article at that particular time although their inclusions are intended in a positive way too I'm sure - for the latter it definitely seems to me it's a significant-ish part of his career/legacy at least).
I've never really known/read/heard anything about Ball in the USA previously to be honest. Obviously for someone like Trevor Francis I was a bit more aware - I see some positive comments from fans about him on this video now: I think you already saw this Goals of 1980 video? In general it does seem to me Ball (perhaps Peters too) was a bit more heralded when he was playing (thinking mainly of his time in England of course) compared to now retrospectively, judging by some comments in articles and lists of best players you and others have posted on Big Soccer. Perhaps part of that is the bonus factor of England being world champions, but maybe his qualities are a bit forgotten too (or not talked about by those who weren't born at the time so much anyway).
@PDG1978 Re: the 1985 - 1995 period. Some interesting compilations have been uploaded recently (sadly also many get deleted). He was 20 years old here and it were the playoffs for the 1986 World Cup. His team played for 86+ minutes with 10 men and he himself was suspended for the return leg (Belgium won qualification on away goals). Or maybe you had this already in mind when you discussed that you was impressed with his form in the 1985 year? (as with Laudrup for 1985 too I remember). Think above compilation (which might not be complete but I recognize the difficulty of the task in doing so) does show his slick control well, for example around 0:56 before his fatal ankle injury, but others might show his passing better. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x463wa5
Yes, I noticed that was there. Also actually vs Germany in 1989 I saw, which while not the same as vs them in the 1988 semi-final, does actually show well slick control and good 'team play' I think at various times too. I hadn't seen his play vs Belgium in detail before from 1985 so no that wasn't in my mind really (more the Ajax stats and highlights etc - and in them I think some of the goals and plays do show even more fluidity than later in his career although I suppose it could be variable depending on 'knocks' and general fitness condition at various times too but that once he'd had the major injury he was always a bit more vulnerable to injury and also not being in optimum condition sometimes?).
@PDG1978 When searching for the '1950 to 1970s lists' thread I came across this interesting take from an American perspective (at the time the 2nd/1st mag in circulation). It's in a few ways intriguing, for example the lack of reference to statistics or trophies won. And maybe, maybe, that's the correct thing to do. Published February 1975. They followed him for a while and placed him #2 overall. With signature this issue sells for massive prices! http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/sp...y-1975-edition-of-sport-magazine-jsa-loa.html It isn't a proper fit for the other thread but because of the interesting focus and the 'outside-in' perception to football I place it nevertheless. Agree that it is an interesting take? Not just on JC14 perse but on 'soccer' superstars in general (playing in Europe at least).
Yes, nice to see. Some comments seem very insightful, like the differences between the games and typical opposition of prime Pele and Cruyff. Also the description of him getting up and already thinking about playing the free-kick (although of course at times he did get annoyed by fouls we know, in Spain or in the 1974 WC Final). The description of his 'ideal' body type too - not that everyone with those basic characteristics wold play the same but I don't think they mean they would. Not sure I fully agree the 'apple' makes a great player always over and above the skills or the creativity (also referred to, with ability to think several moves ahead etc in the article - although the latter comment makes football seem more like chess and I'm not sure literally more than a few moves ahead would be considered by a player in such a fluid and varied game...but yes of course sometimes the 'clever' thing can be to open up possibilities for team-mates by forseeing how things might progress and I do think Cruyff was good at that) or physical qualities for that matter, of which speed can be a very useful one for certain players including Cruyff. And I wouldn't say football was the most difficult contact sport - in some ways it is the most simple to be able to play to some level, but I can see what is meant and do agree it's the most varied and unpredictable possibly which is also what makes it so popular to watch I think (even if the simplicity also makes it popular to play). I agree obviously that great players like him can make it seem simple to be great at the game, moreso than is the case! So they placed him 2nd best in 1975 eventually? Or for 74/75? I can see they refer to him in general as the best in the world in that article. It's interesting to see the American perspective, from a time when interest among some at least was heightened. Maybe they would be assumed to be 'ignorant' of some aspects and traditions of the game, but clearly they did have some interesting analysis to offer and had taken time to view and understand the game (even if using different terminology, some commentators and writers were clearly enthusiastic about the sport and developed good experience of it).
No, #2 overall across all sports (not only 'soccer'). They placed him 2nd overall behind 'their own' Muhammad Ali. I thought that this find doesn't really fit (or adds anything 'new' or noteworthy) to the other thread, but that the article itself was interesting enough (not the usual summing up of trophies or stats). Yes, there are many quotes by prominent figures saying that football is "a simple game but complicated by fools" or "it is simple, but the hardest there is, is to play simple football". Yet at the same time remarks as that details matter and other complicated babbling. He himself once elegantly commented on that paradox and duality of the sport, when he got asked for it. Meanwhile, for half a year there is a stalemate about possible renaming of the stadium (or something else). Everyone seems to be shareholder or an entitled rightsholder in the matter. Municipality, province, six multinationals, accountancy... Laughable. Maybe the best tribute would be if Ajax can reach the EL final. The things below have been mocked but it was indeed a good display against a team with a three times bigger budget and of course better contacts (example). http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/04/14/ajax-becoming-european-force/ Can we just take a moment to appreciate these stats on Ajax?Extraordinary! 🙌 pic.twitter.com/Exx77NSpMp— Match of the Day (@BBCMOTD) April 15, 2017
hello world! Here's my best idea of the top 3's from each year 2016 - 1) Messi 2) Griezman 3) Suarez 2015 - 1) Messi 2) Suarez 3) Lewandowski 2014 - 1) C.Ronaldo 2) Neuer 3) Robben 2013 - 1) Ribery 2) Lahm 3) Bastian 2012 - 1) Messi 2) Iniesta 3) Pirlo 2011 - 1) Messi 2) Xavi 3) iniesta 2010 - 1) Xavi 2) iniesta 3) Messi 2009 - 1) Messi, 2) Xavi, 3) Iniesta 2008 - 1) C.Ronaldo, 2) Messi, 3) Xavi 2007 - 1) Kaka, 2) Messi, 3) C.Ronaldo 2006 - 1) Pirlo, 2) Cannavaro, 3) Buffon 2005 - 1) Ronaldinho, 2) Gerrard, 3) Lampard 2004 - 1) shevchenko, 2) Henry, 3) Ronaldinho 2003 - 1) Nedved, 2) Henry, 3) Buffon 2002 - 1) Ronaldo, 2) Kahn, 3) Zidane 2001 - 1) Kahn, 2) Raul, 3) Figo 2000 - 1) Figo, 2) Zidane, 3) Totti 1999 - 1) Figo, 2) Rivaldo, 3) Beckham 1998 - 1) zidane, 2) Ronaldo, 3) Thuram 1997 - 1) Ronaldo, 2) Bergkamp, 3) Schmeichel 1996 - 1) Ronaldo, 2) Sammer, 3) Litmanen 1995 - 1) Litmanen, 2) rijkaard 3) M. Laudrup 1994 - 1) Romario, 2) Baggio, 3) Maldini 1993 - 1) M. Laudrup, 2) Baggio, 3) Cantona 1992 - 1) Schmeichel, 2) van basten, 3) M.Laudrup 1991 - 1) Matthaus, 2) Savisevic, 3) Papin 1990 - 1) Matthaus, 2) Baresi, 3) Maradona 1989 - 1) van Basten, 2)rijkaard, 3) Baresi 1988 - 1) van Basten, 2) Gullit, 3) Maradona 1987 - 1) Maradona, 2) Gullit, 3) Butragueno 1986 - 1) Maradona, 2) Lineker, 3) Butragueno 1985 - 1) Platini, 2) Maradona, 3) Elkjaer 1984 - 1) Platini, 2) Zico, 3) Tigana 1983 - 1) Zico, 2) Platini, 3) Dalglish 1982 - 1) Zico, 2) Platini, 3) Scirea 1981 - 1) Zico, 2) Rummenigge, 3) Platini 1980 - 1) Maradona, 2) Zico, 3) Rummenigge 1979 - 1) Keegan, 2) Maradona, 3) Rummenigge 1978 - 1) Kempes, 2) Cruyff, 3) Dalglish 1977 - 1) Cruyff, 2) Simonsen, 3) Keegan 1976 - 1) Beckenbauer, 2) Rensenbrink, 3) Cruyff 1975 - 1) Beckenbauer, 2) Cruyff, 3) Neeskens 1974 - 1) Cruyff, 2) Beckenbauer, 3) Muller 1973 - 1) Cruyff, 2) Beckenbauer, 3) Muller 1972 - 1) Cruyff, 2) Beckenbauer, 3) Netzer 1971 - 1) Cruyff, 2) Mazzola, 3) Netzer 1970 - 1) Pele, 2) Tostao, 3) Jairzinho 1969 - 1) Rivera, 2) Cruyff, 3) Riva 1968 - 1) Best, 2) B. Charlton, 3) Dzajic 1967 - 1) Albert, 2) B. Charlton, 3) Pele 1966 - 1) Eusebio, 2) Moore, 3) B. Charlton 1965 - 1) Pele, 2) Eusebio, 3) Facchetti 1964 - 1) Pele, 2) Suarez 3) Law 1963 - 1) Pele, 2) Yashin, 3) Rivera 1962 - 1) Garrincha, 2) Pele, 3) Eusebio 1961 - 1) Pele, 2) Garrincha, 3) Suarez 1960 - 1) Pele, 2) Puskas, 3) Suarez 1959 - 1) Di stefano, 2) Pele, 3) Kopa 1958 - 1) Pele, 2) Didi, 3) Kopa 1957 - 1) Di Stefano, 2) Wright, 3) Kopa 1956 - 1) Di Stefano, 2) Puskas, 3) Kopa 1955 - 1) Di Stefano, 2) Puskas, 3) Kubala 1954 - 1) Walter, 2) Puskas, 3) Kocsis 1953 - 1) Kubala, 2) Puskas, 3) Hidegkuti 1952 - 1) Puskas, 2) Kubala, 3) Kocsis 1951 - 1) Liedholm, 2) Nordal, 3) Di stefano 1950 - 1) Zizinho, 2) SCHIAFFINO, 3) Puskas
This is a quite good attempt I have to say (there is always 5%-15% where one might disagree, and it deviates at places from the others, but the individual effort is a fine one).
tnx I followed your comments and posts and the others like dearman here and in xtratime a long time but i registered just now because of some internet problem in my country "Iran"
@PDG1978 @comme @peterhrt @wm442433 As a slightly different theme I thought about opening a thread about which players at one point in time had the 'unofficial' media tag as "best player in the world" (not only from an English, european or south american point of view). It's a slightly different point of view, and some of these players had certainly stellar years - recognized by reputable journalists - outside the mentioned windows. As a rough sketch, which can be worked out. In order of appearance. Stanley Matthews (somewhere between 1945 - 1952) Gunnar Nordahl (somewhere between 1945 - 1952) Ferenc Puskas (1953 - 1956, 1960) Alfredo di Stefano (1957 - 1960) Didi (1958 - 1959) Pelé (1961 - 1971) Eusebio (1965 - 1968) George Best (1968 - 1969) Johan Cruijff (1970 - 1978) Franz Beckenbauer (1976 - I think the only 'defender') Roberto Rivelino (1976 - this is the one I'm most uncertain about) Kevin Keegan (1979) Diego Maradona (1980, 1981, 1986 - 1990) Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (1980, 1981) Zico (1981, 1982) Falcao (1983) Michel Platini (1983 - 1986) Ruud Gullit (1987 - 1989) Marco van Basten (1988 - 1992) Lothar Matthaus (1990 - 1991) Roberto Baggio (1993 - 1995) Romario (1994 - 1995) Ronaldo (1996 - 1999) Zinedine Zidane (2000 - 2003) Ronaldinho (2004 - 2006) Cristiano Ronaldo (2007 - 2008) Kaká (2007) Lionel Messi (2009 - current) Are there more possibilities? Maybe the pair Baggio/Romario need the most clarification; although their form was in the 2nd half of this period in widespread doubt, and the likes of Klinsmann, Weah and Litmanen were rightly perceived as excellent players, I also think/see that for a few reasons they didn't get the moniker 'world's best player' or 'world's greatest player' attached that much by the media. Bit similar to how the FIFA WPotY panned out with Ajax breaking a few notable European records. Maybe Weah can be inserted for 1995, 1996 but - for a couple of reasons - he shared it then in the media with a few other players. Anyway this is a slightly different perspective than looking at votes for awards (by journalists, players, managers), or expressed technical ideas by experts working in the field. As examples: Rensenbrink in 1976 (a sentiment noted by Keir Radnedge in WS), Stoichkov in 1992, 1994, Figo in 2000, 2001 - and there are many more of that ilk.
Yes, would be interesting to try to establish I think definitely. I did wonder about Figo for a short period but see the last paragraph is a good explanation as to why ultimately Zidane might have still been perceived as the best. I think there is a case for Rivaldo in 1999 though probably (once Ronaldo was accepted to have declined a bit, and Zidane hadn't conclusively continued his mid 1998 form....ditto Bergkamp perhaps). Although that could be another Figo-like case too arguably, or if not it'd be a very short 'reign' as media choice. Also on a similar note, whether or not some players can retrospectively be thought of as the best is not what you're looking for I suppose (Puskas perhaps before 1953?). And more vague sentiments like expressed here about Finney, also in retrospect although referring to views of the time, aren't really conclusive in terms of being hailed as the 'best' (although certainly in that Matthews period he was thought to rival him among English wingers): http://www.independent.co.uk/news/o...st-attacking-player-of-the-games-9131051.html I wonder about Ademir in 1950, when the World Cup gives chance for the world to form that opinion, rather than him being a 'regional' choice if it hadn't maybe.
Yes true - to all of that. Think that of the continental players Nordahl built a big reputation in Europe at least. From what I could read. It's easy to forget he was 6 years older than Puskas. As mentioned before I think Puskas before 1952 is hard to establish given lack of top-ranked opponents at club and national team level alike (top 10, top 20 level). Many regret that he didn't get it in 1960. Similar example to Figo, Rivaldo, Finney etc. - involving two famous players - is Keegan saying in 1980 as reigning EPotY that Platini and Cruijff are the two best players in the world. But I think in case of both players that falls outside the 'media window' so to speak. (esp. in case of Platini the opinion of Keegan was probably as reigning EPotY not too far removed from 'true' reality, but I don't think it was widely shared by the media no at that point) edit: changed 'younger' in 'older'