ok, so let's say your point makes sense. even, if that were the case, have you ever heard anyone speak of how kuyt was regularly the first to training and the last to leave??? counter to your argument, we could also make the point that there were players just as talented as messi and/or ronaldo but because of the lack of drive and commitment they were not able to reach that level. as i have heard many times, that quaresma in their teens was regarded as a higher talent than ronaldo. just to use that as an example. im not saying kuyt and other players who are at the top are not amazing professionals but i just don't think they have the mentality of ronaldo and messi to be the best in the game and to ACTUALLY PRACTICE these habits. if there are players out there who have had such habits as being the player who was first to training and last to leave then we can make a case, or something of the like. for example, alexis sanchez may be one of those players??
It depends on the phase of career I think. Which years would you describe as their "ball hog" years? (to the detriment of the team?) Cristiano is a poor FK taker but a true and genuine penalty specialist however.
Messi now has a mental block when he faces South American defenders. He can't really shine like he does with Barcelona.
Poor fk taker? Only since mid 2014 and in fact his penalty ratio is going down steadily if I'm not mistaken he missed one already this season and 4 last(but before that he went on a "penaldo streak' where he hardly missed any pens in open play for Madrid between 2011-2014) If we are talking only last couple years than I agree Ronaldo is shite at FK but before NO WAY His peak period for freekicks 08-10 was pretty epic to say the least(he scored from any distance/any angle) A while ago I calculated he had 20+ free kicks by 2009 with at least a half dozen in the champions league. He even had a 2 games during this period where he scored 2 freekicks in a single match
I'm hoping to start a new thread, specifically about that subject, which I think deserves a separate thread - but essentially, in conclusion: I disagree with your "no mentality, becomes a Balotelli" argument. I think that past eras had their own Balotellis, and I think that most of the great players from the early 1990s, would still be more or less just exactly as great today, in fact, I think they would be perceived as greater players today, as a result of the greater TV exposure that highlights their ball control and their flair, etc. In contrast, many of the great players of today would be more or less as great in the early 1990s, but I think that the lack of TV exposure (of the early 1990s) would have a big impact on the midfield players who aren't statistically great but are qualitatively great (Iniesta) - a lack of TV exposure would greatly reduce the perception and popularity of such players. Basically, I think that most of the great players from any era would have no significant problems adapting to modern football. And as for your "natural talent" point - why do you think it is, that when you look at the great midfield players from the early 1990s and/or late 1980s, you get players like Ruud Gullit, Michael Laudrup, Carlos Valderrama, Robert Prosinecki, Chris Waddle, Gheorghe Hagi, Fernando Redondo, etc. I mean, all of those midfield players are physically stronger and/or physically bigger and/or physically faster, than players like Scholes, Beckham, Pirlo, Deco, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Verratti, etc. So when you talk about past eras favoring "natural talent," was natural talent inherently physically stronger and/or bigger and/or faster, as it applied to midfield players? Or was that merely the result of an era that required or favored bigger and/or stronger and/or faster athletes in the midfield? And the arguable increase of midfield players whom are relatively small or average sized, and/or relatively slow or average in speed, and/or relatively weak or average in strength -- does that not arguably point to the conclusion that actual talent, and not raw athleticism, is a bigger factor for midfield players of the modern game, than it was for midfield players of the early 1990s? What exactly is "natural talent" when the "natural selection" of each specific era, depends on the nature (tactics) of each era? How does a faster game, produces physically slower midfield players? Overall, I tend to have difficulties when defining what "natural talent" is, because each era identifies or defines "natural talent" as something slightly or significantly different.
I think you have not yet fully understood how the game has evolved; all-encompassing players who do everything (like the "team players" you are referencing) from long balls, to dictating the tempo, to scoring goals, to dribbling runs, to skills here and there; etc. That type of player has largely been replaced by insular specialists, so you get Pirlo or Alonso delivering amazing long balls, instead of Zinedine Zidane producing a good long ball once per every dozen he tries. Football is a much more compartmentalized sport today, you get the relatively selfish players who enjoy a surplus (over past players) as a result of tactics being more efficient in the creation of goals, and you get the insular experts who play rather boring “system player” type midfield roles, and very rarely do you see players like Mesut Ozil. In any case, given Messi's role, I just don’t understand what you think it is that makes Messi “unprecedented" selfish. Messi was a huge reason in Suarez winning the Golden Shoe. Messi combined extremely well with Eto’o (who actually was very selfish) and Thierry Henry. Messi combined extremely well with Suarez and Neymar. He transitioned successfully from being the main goal scorer, to being the main playmaker, in the space of no time at all – which a truly selfish player would not be able to do at all, let alone at the GOAT level that Messi displayed in season 2014-15 and season 2013-14. And so, what exactly makes Messi not only selfish in your view, but “unprecedented” selfish in your view??
How the hell was messi performing at a goat level in 13/14(as a playmaker or even goal scorer)? He repeatedly choked against atletico Madrid throughout the season(1 goal in 6 games against them) xavi was already in decline,iniesta was pretty bad and neymar was adjusting to a new league/style of play etc it was a world class season no doubt but it was his "worst" since 2007/08. Throwing around the term goat level when it comes to Messi has almost become fashionable the truth of the matter is he had 2 seasons in his career where it can be said he performed at a level that arguably no over player in historyhas reached or maybe one or 2 others. 10/11 and the second half of 14/15 were definitely all time 11/12 was a historic goalscoring season,he was still a alien dribbler but he choked at the most crucial moments of the season(the last classico of the season and the semi vs Chelsea) As for Messi being selfish well the best players have to have an element of selfishness no doubt so was Maradona in his pre 86 ball hogging days,Zidane was even a more prolific ball hogger and to make things worse had no where near the same amount of end product as Diego and there are many others I could list what I have tried to explain to @SayWhatIWant but to know avail is even if messi was supposedly a greedy player his selfishness is fully justified (Did he forget about his 100s of assists many of them legendary in quality,his many 100s of goal chances created etc) If messi isn't a team player than frankly not many are
His "mental block" wasn't a factor when he scored a hat trick against Brazil in 2012 he had a stinker against them the other day and that's it. there is no need for any elaborate excuses.
Carlito, you repeatedly make the mistake of thinking, "Messi was GOAT in 14/15, but not in 13/14," and it's quite irrational. Messi 2013-14 is the same exact player he was in 2014-15, except in 2014-15 he didn't get injured, and he had Neymar in better form, and he had Suarez (not Pedro) in front of him. I concede the point that I might possibly be overrating Messi's 2013-14, but honestly, some of his "passing" in that season was amazing, playing for a team that was largely out of form. If Messi "choked" in many of the games you referenced - then CR7 has choked pretty much 70% of the time that he's played important games i.e. you have a fairly unrealistic standard for "chocking." Totally agree with the above. Honestly, I think that SayWhatIWant is obsessed with Zidane (more so than he is with any other player, clearly), obsessed with nostalgia, and he repeatedly says things that are simply not logical as they apply to relative modernity e.g. he said that "Juventus Zidane was a better dribbler and also dribbled more, than prime Messi..." I mean, who in his right mind, would ever be under the impression that Juventus Zidane's dribbling was at any point comparable to Messi's dribbling?? I don't want to offend him, but he clearly needs to be BIASED to even begin to entertain that idea.
There is nothing irrational about thinking Messi was at an all time level in 14/15 but not in 13/14 If you can bring yourself to remember messi's great form started around December 2014,for the first couple months of the 14/15 season things weren't looking so great for Barcelona(suarez was banned at the start and even when he came back he took a while to adjust) real Madrid was the team to watch,they were firing from all cylinders and Ronaldo was in superlative form(at the beginning of 14/15) Barcelona even suffered a rare 3-1 loss to Madrid and then...messi clicked and as they say the rest is history there was a article I read at the time(I can't find it at the moment) but messi attributed his surge in form to hiring a new personal chef,he lost a few of the added pounds he had been adding on since his 2013 injury and was in great physical shape(like he was during the "guardiola era") He was running more,dribbling way more and it looked as if he rediscovered the passion he had for the game a couple years earlier yes it is true that messi didn't have a lot of support in 13/14(relatively speaking of course)but you can't also deny that in many a game that season he looked uninterested and he went from being one of the players who clocked the most miles on the pitch to one who walked in many games.(there was also a conspiracy theory floating about that he was "saving himself" for the 2014 world cup like you claimed Romario was in 1994 ) Messi's passing range has increased year upon year since around 2008.in 10/11 he was one of if not the best playmaker in the world so it is perfectly understandable that in 13/14 he had more then a few top tier passes. In 14/15 he became even greater(he had the dribbling of Maradona play making of platini and all time goalscoring ability it was pretty epic) While last season his passing stepped up another notch and I would argue he was an even greater playmaker then he was in 14/15(difference his goalscoring and dribbling took a major hit) there was a video that lessthanjake posted a while ago of only 3-4 months worth of passing from messi's 15/16 season and ill be honest with you I've never seen anything like it you can be sure he pulled of more stunning passes that season than iniesta and Zidane did in their entire club careers(and that's not an exaggeration) As for c.Ronaldo being absent for 70% of big games he has played...I can sense this another one of your traps the difference is this time I choose not to fall in to it.
i agree with @leadleader on this one. if you ask me, 13/14 for messi is when he started to revolutionize his game (for lack of a better word). in terms of being an all round player, i agree that was one of his best seasons. yes, you are correct, @carlito86, in saying that messi did look disinterested in a number of the games he played that season. however, as leadleader said, don't forget that messi had i think 2 recurring hamstring injuries in this season, he was repeatedly throwing up before games, and there were a few matches that he had a black eye (perhaps it was an allergic reaction). and of course, players are always going through things that we don't know about. in the grand scheme of things, if any other player in the world had that season that Messi had in 13/14, he surely would have won world player of the year.
In 13/14 he scored 33 non penalty goals in 46 games:0.71 This was well below the standard he set over the previous two seasons where he scored over 130 goals in 2 club seasons(Inc pens) His 13/14 season would've won wpoty competing against any individual year of Zidane,del Piero,Thierry Henry,Figo and it was probably greater than any season Romario/Rivaldo played in Europe (I am aware this may hurt the sensitivities of certain posters but it's the truth) the funny thing is 13/14 was legitimately the worst season messi had since he was 20 years old(2008)
I agree with you that both of them are evidently strong-willed and mentally resilient, as well as courageous. I'd say Cristiano epitomizes this slightly more than Messi, but this is besides the point. I just sincerely believe that they could have scored less goals, while winning more trophies - which would have had the biggest impact on Cristiano's club career and Messi's national career.
Not so much now as in his earlier years, that much I was very clear about. I don't think Messi is as genuinely obsessed with his goal tally as he was years ago. I don't at all agree with your assertion that football is more compartmentalized. To me, the reality could not be further from the truth. Without meaning any offense, I must say that I think you are completely off the mark in this leadleader. Rather, the expectation is for players to be all-rounders more now than ever before, with a tremendous emphasis on the ball-playing capacity of all players on the fields, esp. CBs which was not the case a decade ago. Everybody is expected to be technically proficient in order to participate in the build-up/offensive phase. Players are generally more reliable passers across the board. Total football is the name of the game. What we have witnessed is an overabundance of midfielders, because everybody on the pitch, to a certain capacity, has to have the basic faculties of a midfielder. Training emphasizes first touch and quick release. I think you are conflating better offensive organization and more developed, rigorous attacking schemes with compartmentalization. These are two different things.
I'd say Messi from 2007-2014 and Ronaldo from the beginning of his career to 2013ish. These are rough ballparks and shouldn't be cross-examined rigidly. I think they could have contributed more to their team's success despite seeing their overall G+A decrease. There's a reason why a big proportion of their respective team's goals went through them, and more parity, and a more even distribution is healthier and better for a team's success. Plus, it just translates to worse play on the field which has deleterious consequences as can be seen with Messi's NT career.
When he was fit in 2013-14, he was as great as he's ever been. Both his passing and his dribbling were at their absolute best. In 2014-15 his dribbling wasn't quite as aggressive as in 2013-14 (when he was fit) I'd say.
2014-2015 Messi was still a very incredible dribbler. But yeah his agility,acceleration,dribble speed weren't on his 2010-2013 level imo. 2013-14 is the time Messi changed his style i think
Thanks for the reply. If you ask me I'd say Messi was on the selfish end between 2006 and 2008 (you showed/argued this previously), sometimes to the detriment of the team. Then he was again between 2011 and 2013 I'd say, but in a different way as the 2006-2008 "ball hog" years. Of course, like most forwards he's still somewhat selfish because he is still the primary shot taker and does little/nothing on defense (the Sevilla performance was one of the best in a while but it showed '0' in interceptions and such like). Neymar and/or Suarez create the wonderful spaces to make wonderful passes into, but the reverse doesn't happen (sometimes the idle Messi closes spaces). If you look at Brazil NT, that is a different situation and scenario for Neymar. Cristiano Ronaldo was certainly selfish and 'blind' between 2003 and 2006. 2006-07 was most probably his most team oriented year, as also Ryan Giggs said. Thereafter it regressed until he left ManUnited. In recent years he has become less selfish again, I agree. But he should stop taking free kicks though (just as Messi has taken way too much penalties, if you look at that facet objectively).
Some interesting stats here on comparing their international record. They've been criticised so often in the past for not replicating club form at international level but the numbers are still incredible when compared to mere mortals! http://www.thestatszone.com/article...as-the-greatest-impact-at-international-level
i would actually agree with leadleader in the fact that football in modern day is more compartmentalized. i think players are expected to specialize more so in one position than in the past. i still don't think that footballers today are more technical than the past. i would also disagree that today total football is the name of the game, assuming that 'total football' means every player has much more freedom to move in any position. and about their being an abundance of midfielders, i think thats due to the fact that there is always an abundance of midfielders because the most difficult thing to master and consistently deliver is the end product in the offensive third. which is why it is so much more amazing when you look at the numbers that ronaldo and messi have put up year after year
They have solid NT numbers, but "incredible"? Nah. They both score at about the same rate as Pauleta (~0.5 GPG) - Portugal's main goalscorer before the CR7 era, but not an incredible player. Additionally, int'l scoring records need to be taken with a large grain of salt. Especially in UEFA with all the weak teams in that region.
Not to dismiss Pauleta(he was a very good striker in his own right)but you simply cannot compare the role he played for the NT to what Ronaldo and Messi have been doing for 10+ years Ronaldo and Messi for at least 90% of their nt careers were never strikers to begin with(bar the odd game here and there. Ronaldo has had to do the job of two players due to Portugal not having been blessed with good enough strikers (Pauleta retired when Ronaldo was in his early 20s and since then he has had to play the role of both winger and striker) Messi has always had good attacking options to play with(ie tevez,aguero,lavezzi,di Maria etc)but the downside is he had to contend with a flimsy defence since the 07 copa America at least(the only genuine world class NT Messi has been part of was the 2006 argentine world cup squad(which was a phenomenal team but Messi was way too young) Put c.Ronaldo in the Brazil 97-02 NT or Messi in Spain 08-12 and you can bet your house they would've surpassed puskas/Pele/mullers NT goal records while they were still in their mid twenties
Yeah, that's a factor. More true for Messi than for Ronaldo. Messi literally plays as a midfielder sometimes for Argentina, unlike with Barca. Ronaldo is a forward 100% of the time for Portugal though.