CSA launching Canadian Premier League

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by fuzzx, Jul 10, 2014.

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  1. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001

    I would say that Toronto is big enough for a second team. Ottawa, obviously. I would think they put one in Windsor and try to play into the empty Detroit market. I wonder if they shouldn't just accept the second teams of the MLS franchises. Sure, it would be a bit of a problem of perception. But that might be better way to go rather than fighting for Canadian talent.
     
  2. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Never heard of Detroit City FC?

    [​IMG]
     
    Stuart95 repped this.
  3. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    That was my thinking as well. It's not like the USL carries a huge amount of prestige. Except that it starts with a U instead of C, which for some reason seems to be an issue with a lot of Canadian sport fans.
     
  4. GunnerJacket

    GunnerJacket Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Gainesville, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    While I'm sure I've heard this idea before I haven't given it much thought, but upon reflection I do think this would be ideal. The CSL isn't going to challenge for D1 status or compete with MLS, so harboring the B squads of their MLS peers not only gives the league extra weight and a presence in those major markets, but it offers the MLS sides a chance to deepen their roots within the Canadian sports landscape. In other words, they get the best of both worlds and the CSL doesn't have to fight a war with them or MLS for casual soccer fans.

    I'm all for it if the league wants it.
     
  5. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Not that cold here in the summer.
     
  6. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Sometimes it is in Calgary.
     
  7. The Franchise

    The Franchise Member+

    Nov 13, 2014
    Bakersfield, CA
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Personally, I'm all for taking the MLS reserve teams, and think it would be good PR for the teams as well, as one of the criticisms often seen is that the Canadian MLS teams are insufficiently committed to improving the state of Canadian soccer. It would also add a greater degree of stability, as the MLS reserves would not be so reliant on their own gate revenue. However, the down side would be potentially damaging the prestige of the league by including teams which are subsidiaries of a much larger organization.
     
  8. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada

    This is why I think the current world cup qualifying cycle is vitally important.

    If Canada can make the hex and have meaningful games throughout 2017 and 2018 or even (perish the thought) qualify for Russia, then the league will have an enormous catalyst to base itself on.

    I doubt many (or even any) of the players making up the current squad would play in the league, they are all too good. But the simple idea that Canada is a competent soccer playing nation may energize the markets and help this league really succeed.

    Also, in terms of the player pool Canucks abroad tracks every single one.

    According to http://rednationonline.ca/Articles2015/CANMNTPlayerPool.aspx There are over 300 individuals eligible for the national team playing professionally all over the world (including the US).

    Apart from that you have everyone on the Fury's current roster, as well as myriad amateur private academy and college level players who could join a squad.

    In a recent interview, I heard that while 75% Canadian quota is the target, they may very well start the league with a lower value. This makes the job even easier. But it needs to be reiterated that the quota will be rigid and will be expected to rise to 75% at some point.

    Recent experience from the 3 USL teams (which has 50% quotas) shows that they are serious about enforcing it.
     
    The Franchise repped this.
  9. hot potato

    hot potato Member+

    Feb 21, 2014
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    i dont think the Canada Soccer Association wants to be a part of USL- it wants its own national identity and its BIG aim is to host WC 2026

    we have had 3 really successful FIFA events in the last 13 years = 2003 under 19 WWC, 2007 under 20 MWC, 2014 WWC

    i think as co-host with the USA
     
  10. hot potato

    hot potato Member+

    Feb 21, 2014
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    although one can hope that the WC 2022 is taken from qatar and moved to the usa or england and the one left out gets WC 2026
     
  11. Tom Ado

    Tom Ado Member

    Jun 25, 2015
    That would go a long way toward solving the "should the Canadian league put teams in MLS markets, or in a neighboring metro like Quebec City or Victoria?" question. If the reserve teams do come in, I wonder if they'd take steps to drop the "II/2" in Toronto FC II and Vancouver Whitecaps FC 2, and go with a name that makes them sound less like an MLS reserve team, like say, Toronto Reds or FC Vancouver.
     
  12. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's premature to think about the MLS 2 teams playing in this league. The quota could present a problem, but I think this league would have to prove itself in terms of quality of play. The USL is a known quantity and offers a wider variety of opponents.
     
  13. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    #913 Initial B, Feb 24, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
    I argued elsewhere that the Canadian USL teams would be a good fit for this league, but it was pointed out to me that having MLS farm teams pretty much automatically place the CPL at a lower division than its supposed Div1 status.

    I think the league should be set up like the MLS model, supporting all the franchises from under a single entity structure. Player salaries would be paid from the Head Office while each franchise was responsible for local operations and infrastructure. I'd also put in place an international limit of 8 players per team (including americans and maybe 1 DP paid by the club itself) so that at least 18-24 Canadians would get a chance to play in a CPL game every week, further increasing the prospective CMNT player pool. These teams should probably be stocked from the best players from the Div3 L1O, PLSQ, and maybe PCSL as well as players poached from the MLS USL clubs.

    They're going to need to get the money to run the league from somewhere, though. The league will probably require roughly $120-150 million in cash for the first 10 years of a 6-8 team league to cover expenses. A TV contract with TSN and Sportsnet would help, but i'm not sure how much they can be expected to get. If it's lower than expected, then the league should not try and have more than 8 clubs for the first ten years to provide as much cost certainty for the clubs as possible. Don't expect more than 3000 average attendence for the first few seasons, hopefully reaching ~10000 average attendence by the end of the decade.

    Teams should probably be placed in pairs relatively close geographically to build rivalries between the two clubs and their supporters can more easily travel to away games. Footy Soldiers had the good idea that team names should be based on local communities or clubs, not necessarily the cities they're based in (such as Sigma/Blizzard FC in the GTA or Foothills FC in Calgary), in order to differentiate themselves from other NA leagues. In my ideal world, I'd like to see the following 4 pairs of cities in a league to start: Calgary/FC Edmonton, Regina/Winnipeg, Hamilton/Sigma (GTA), Ottawa Fury/Montreal (or Quebec City). Then after 10 years, if the league is stable and growing (and a decent TV contract), slowly add pairs of teams in Vancouver/Victoria, Moncton/Halifax, London/Quebec City (or Montreal), or Saskatoon/(St John's or Thunder Bay). A 12-16 team league would have a 28-30 game schedule run with a NASL-style season with CFL style divisions and playoff structure. It would end up being a feeder league (like the Eredivisie) to MLS and Europe, with transfer fees going towards building further soccer infrastructure in Canada.
     
    Bill Archer and FootySkeptic repped this.
  14. FootySkeptic

    FootySkeptic Member

    Sep 24, 2015
    Club:
    Cardiff City FC
    Ideally, after the first few years the MLS clubs might pull the plug on their reserve sides & put academies in their respective D3 leagues. Currently only TFC has their academy in the local D3; presently IMPFC has no academy after 18U and there is no solution for the Whitecaps out west. With a solid D3 and MLS academies in place at that level then it leaves room for the players on the USL reserve sides can play among the teams across the CPL.

    I don't know if the CSA has the balls to do that a few years in, but I'm hoping for that over absorbing the current reserve sides. I'd rather have the MLS clubs loaning players out across the whole league than keeping their own squads and hindering the possibility of CPL teams in their respective markets.
     
  15. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True, but also has a wide variation in terms of quality.
     
  16. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely, just pointing out known v unknown. I also wonder if travel is cheaper in the USL.
     
  17. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    TFC Academy has their U-18s playing in L1O against those other clubs' mostly U-23s. TFC U-23s go and play for TFCII. I thought I heard something about the Impact putting a team in PLSQ like the Fury did with their U-19 Senior Academy team (the Fury U-17s play in the PLSQ reserve league). I'm not sure what the whitecaps are doing.
    It's going to take a while for the Ontario and Quebec D3 leagues to get to the level of technical expertise where it would not be a significant development step down for the MLS reserve teams.
     
  18. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    You bring up a number of very good points. I'd like to emphasize two of them:

    First, the CPL players aren't going to feed the NT directly. The CPL will be USL level. So we'll need a concrete system for advancing promising CPL players or else all that potential will be squandered.

    Second, you correctly point out that the CPL will need something like $150 million over ten years to become sustainable. (I personally suspect more like $200 million but let's not quibble.) Some of that will come from sponsorships. Some of it will come from ticket sales. Some might come from TV. No matter how I crunch the numbers, however, I don't come up with a realistic scenario that doesn't leave us several tens of millions short. As you pointed out, that money is going to have to come from somewhere. So who will be the Anschutz or Hunt of Canadian soccer?
     
  19. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    There's also revenue to be had in selling players from their development systems, but I don't imagine it'll amount to a significant amount. Still could be good for a couple million a year.
     
  20. GunnerJacket

    GunnerJacket Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Gainesville, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I thought MLS was already designated as Canada's D1 division?
     
  21. hot potato

    hot potato Member+

    Feb 21, 2014
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    with a population just 10% of the usa, finding sufficient talent for 8 teams that will make people want to go to games will be a BIG issue- and if the better players are with the 3 MLS teams academies/USL teams, what will be left over will be very few and less talented

    also, coming up with the millions to begin and sustain the huge loses for the canadian league- someone here said $150 000 000 to $200 000 000 over 10 years- is the proverbial, when pigs fly

    am i hopeful for a sustainable canadian professional league- NOT- unless there is a promise of a MWC being awarded and then maybe the federal government would step up to the financial plate, much like they have done for the 2010 Winter Olympics in vancouver
     
  22. FootySkeptic

    FootySkeptic Member

    Sep 24, 2015
    Club:
    Cardiff City FC
    ^This is wrong, look at the numbers of Canadian soccer players in the systems you mentioned and you'll notice most don't get enough minutes and are not paid more than would be available in the proposed CPL. Even if the talent pool is diluted at first, which it certainly always is when a new domestic league starts, the idea is to grow the pool the same way the MLS did for USA. As mentioned by others here as well, much of the overseas talent would likely be drawn to this league for the same reasons; comparable if not better salary and more minutes + hometown lure/exposure.

    Additionally if you want to look at population for comparison, take a look at the FIFA big count and you might be surprised to find out that Canada has more people playing soccer per captia than USA.

    To the money issue, I think it is safe to say let people with that money decide when pigs fly...
     
  23. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    To be clear - we are not predicting losses of $100 to $200 million over ten years. That figure represents the total revenue needed to sustain the league (i.e. depending on what assumptions you use, the league needs total revenues of $10 to $20 million per year to survive).

    Every ticket that is sold, every jersey sponsor that signs on, every advertising dollar or merchandise sale brings in some of that money. It's just that when many of us make what we feel are reasonable estimates about ticket sales, etc. we tend to come up short on the revenue side. So the "flying pig money" is no where near $200 million over ten years but it is likely in the low millions per year which means a few tens of millions over ten years.
     
  24. sawillis

    sawillis Member

    Apr 24, 2007
    Smyrna, TN
    That looks like a miserable way to watch a game.
     
    harrylee773 repped this.
  25. hot potato

    hot potato Member+

    Feb 21, 2014
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    granted that there are a lot of young people playing soccer- but in the final analysis, can you name me 5 canadians that are actually playing as regular starters for any of the canadian MLS teams that have been around for 5-9 years? the only sure bet is will johnson for TFC who came from portland; a few others, such as russell tiebert, kyle bekker, an aging patrice bernier and jonathan osorio are semi-starters; another handful are glued to the sub bench for MLS games and might be starters in the canadian championship games

    where do you think a promising young player will go? MLS reserve team in montreal, vancouver or TO that offers the hope for a professional connection to a growing and prosperous 24-28 professional league- the MLS-, or a new 8 team CSL in possible places like regina, winnipeg, halifax or victoria??

    the idea of creating a prosperous and significant only canadian-made brand, while a noble idea, will be a recipe for financial disaster IMO-edmonton has been in the NASL for 3 years and still has an attendance average of under
    2 000 and the owners have lost millions! how about you start a founder's club in your city and start raising money to invest in the club/league? when you reach even $1 000 000 (or even 10% of that), please let me know

    i am not against the idea, but canada is a long way off from being able to sustain its own league- this idea of a national league is being promoted to attract a MWC, probaby for 2026 or 2030- its one of FIFA's conditions to getting a MWC- when i see significant, committed and wealthy investors coming forth in the proposed 8-10 cities and active, vibrant supporters groups in each city, then i will start to be a believer- the bidding/awarding for MWC 2026 begins in 2018 and coincidentally that is the year that the CSA says it is targeting for the launching of the CSL

    maybe your pig can fly! but its hard not to be pessimistic of seeing it happen by 2018 or even 2020
     

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