Review: Dutch Moroccan and Dutch Turkish players who choose country of heritage over the Dutch NT. Analyses.

And so was Christianity. I read that the majority of the lawsuits and cartoons were related to Christianity. Insulting a religion is very good as it is very powerful in the world and power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolute. We see many muslim majority countries ruled by state legitimized terror where critics, feminists, gays, lesbians, apostates and atheïsts are being prosecuted or even killed.

Insulting and ridiculing an idea that depends on respect is the best way of dealing with it, in order to make people less scared for it. Religion makes people afraid. Islam scares them with eternal torture if they do not submit to it. They scare people for leaving once they join. They scare them with blasphemy laws if the religion has really found a food on the ground in a country. They are configuring social circles in such a way that it makes it for people harder to leave the religion (loss of friendships and relationships happen a lot). What religion is scared for is that people will not take it serious anymore. So the best way to dismantle this scam and end mental polluting, is to ridicule it.

I mean try that with gravity. What if somebody says "I think all people that believe in gravity are clowns" or "gravity is something only losers believe in". Would that upset me? I would laugh and ask him him if he was ready to tests this opinion with some real life tests that I would come up with (no worry, I would make it safe). Religion can't do this. They can't prove anything. They depend on people's willingness to throw their critical thinking out of the window, only for this fairy tale. Just this once, only for them and get it done like the proper salesmen they are. Since they can not depend on proof and have really contradictory stuff printed in those holy scriptures of theirs, what are they then of course afraid of ? Ridicule. It's their arch enemy, as they depend so much on seriousness, respect and imagination. If it was real, they would brush it off and continue worshipping their "real" God.

So, they have come up with ways to tackle this danger in society's where they are not all that powerful, using shaming labels like Islamophobia and bigot. Or they drive their followers crazy and make it out to be something super horrible to witness if their religion ridiculed. So much so, that it makes some of them prepared to kill. Then they of course condemn the violence, but that is often a hypocrite move to me. They damn well know that they shape the climate in which the crazy people will open the hunting season.

It is needed and I will tell you exactly why. In the West we need to mature Islam. The country's from Morocco all the way to Indonesia they have neglected to do this. Islam has not gone through reformation, enlightenment and all the scrutiny Christianity has gone through in modern times. Islam has proven to be very good in catering the laws around it's needs. It's need to be respected and feared (the only way the scam really works). So we see in every islamic country blasphemy laws, apostate laws and laws that places it above other religions. It is a monster that craves for special treatment, that craves to silence critics and conforming people to it's will. It is a tyrannic spoiled little child that has always gotten what it wants. So, what these countries have neglected to do is our job now in Europe. We have to slam it like a pinata. Islam needs to go through the same process as Christianity. Taking insults and rather than responding with aggression, learning to get desensitized to it. The rage machine needs to be worn down and muslims need to learn to carry on and focus on what they like to believe in, without claiming that others need conform to it or respect it. I acknowledge the existence of Islam, I don't respect it as I respect human rights and everywhere I see Islam dominating, human rights are not respected by Islam. If Islam is not respecting what I respect, then why would I be willing to respect it? As I have asked so many times before. Show me an Islamic country that has the same level of political rights and civil liberty's as the Free West?

This is the only way that we can tame the beast. The only way that it has a future in Europe without getting into a war IMO. Islam and Freedom can not coexist, or one of the two has to bend to the other. It has to be Islam, not Freedom. Islam is not getting special treatment and will be dealt with as just a set of ideas. Nothing more.

Now we also have to take a closer look at where insult and disrespect actually starts. Because muslims don't have the monopoly to be insulted. Actually they start with the insults. It starts with the holy scriptures and the claims it contains. People who read the Quran from a certain background can actually be appalled by the verses it contains. This critique on Islam does not happen in isolation or without Muslims holding certain claims that are highly offensive for óthers. I am always amazed how muslims think they can just worship highly offensive stuff and then think that others will just take it. Put yourself in my place and try to read it as somebody who sees it as just another scam:

* The Sceptic Quaran

Let's just focus for a second on the theme of cruelty:

* Cruelty in the Quran

Let's just look at what these muslims are worshipping:

http://quran.com/4/56

Torture (open) Torture (close)

4:56: Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

I mean what kind of sick f*ck worships something like that? Torture me as an atheïst forever? Acting like the Dnepropetrovsk maniacs, but then like forever? Would make those psychopaths actually look like amateurs. What kind of sick idiot are these people putting forward as something to worship? Worshipping somebody that says he will go all Dnepropetrovsk maniac on me and then getting all defensive when they get some insults back. Every time they prey to such a monster, every single time, they insult me deeply as an atheist. That they would go with somebody like that over me, makes me question their sanity and a whole range of other things.

We can move on to a load of other verses that indicate more cruelty, female inequality, injustice and what not, but that is not needed I think to make my point. The holy scriptures are deeply offensive for many people outside the religion. We also see this in practice in muslim majority countries. Keep in mind that when you want to know somebody it is important to see how he or she acts towards somebody with lesser power and status. Everybody can be nice, respectful and forthcoming towards people of more status and power, but we get to know a person when they interacts with people that have less of it. What does a person do once it holds power over others? Same way of testing can be applied to Islam. Not judging it when it only has reached 10 or 20% in a country. No, what does it do when it hits high percentages? What does it do when it is powerful and comfortable? Then we can see it gravitating towards it's natural state. So what do we see? Theocracy, tirrany, intolerance, unequal treatment of women, unequal treatment kuffars, apostates prosecuted, civil liberty's plummets, political liberty's plummets, freedom of speech plummets and human rights in general not respected. It suppresses everything I care about. To call this an insult would not come close to doing justice to what I feel. From where I am standing, Islam is constantly insulting me. Muslims can rage about Palestine, but I am angry at all the state legalized terror it performs and the constant violation of human rights all over the world. Please consider all this when talking about who (starts) insulting who exactly.

That looks like they hit the panic button and came up with the wrong reflex. I already read some comments about France on Reddit that it was dealing really poor with certain cases and I think I start to understand what they were referring to. This is bad for the maturing process of a religion as they now can pull the hypocrite card. The rules of the game must be applied in the same way to all. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech and only stops where it tries to make people violent towards other groups.

 

I am glad you make this point. You say it like you know for certain that all muslims are of the same opinion, but a lot actually still treat it as the perfect text that contains the truth until the ends of time. If you say that it is an old book that must be seen in the context of it's time, then we already made a huge leap. However that is you and me. We are talking about a massive religion that contains huge percentages of believers that do not see it as a work that is so dependable of circumstances and era. Many believe it literally and many do not see it dependable of time. Actually that is the whole problem and a main reason to attack it. This step is a fundamental step that in many cases still has to be made and that demands a dynamic where the people that hold these ideas are challenged. The group that takes it literally needs to become far smaller.

Regarding context, it has occurred to me that there is a huge group of apologetics that simply place it against a background to a peace me. They just tell me what I want to hear. The things that sound non violent and nice are of course pushed forward, but the violent parts are being purposefully camouflaged. This game looks like this:

* Context!

But this is where muslims always get into this Orwellian world and start to tell me that battle is means striving and a whole lot more. If it was such a perfect book then people should be able to understand it clearly. That rule is just another cop out.

When I was in school, my math teacher was never interested in the final answer, but in the process that lead me towards that solution. He wanted to see how I solved an equation. That is something I now say to all people that want to sell me some kind of interpretation from the Quaran on the internet. If you want to sell me this totally Orwellian version of a holy book, then I want to see all the steps that take it to come to this one.

Besides there are sources on the internet that do this and they do not make me calm, but strengthen my conviction that Islam is a catalyst for inequality. Let's take this random example:

* Source

Is wearing jeans imitating the Kuffaar? (open) Is wearing jeans imitating the Kuffaar? (close)

Praise be to Allaah.

Imitating means trying to be like someone, which the fuqahaa' understand to mean being similar in a certain way to the person whom one is imitating. The Muslim is not permitted to imitate the kuffaar by wearing clothing that is unique to them and for which they are known, like the belt worn by Christian monks, or the distinctive headgear of Magians (Zoroastrians) and Jews, because of the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "Whoever imitates a people is one of them." (Reported by Abu Dawood, 4/314).

The scholars have specified that the prohibition of imitation applies in two cases:

1. Where what is imitated is clothing that is characteristic of the kuffaar, not things that are worn by others too or things that used to be distinct to them but have now become widespread among other groups too - like the jeans referred to in the question.
2. When the act of imitation happens at a time when the clothing in question is characteristic of the kuffaar. This is because al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) reported that Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) saw some people wearing shawl-like garments over their heads and shoulders, and said, "They look like the Jews of Khaybar." Ibn Hajar commented: "This could be used as evidence that this kind of garment was characteristic of the Jews at that time, but this is no longer the case, so that garment is now counted as something that is in general permitted." (Fath al-Baari, 10/275).

The scholars also made an exception concerning Muslims wearing the distinctive clothes of the kuffaar when living in daar al-harb (non-Muslim countries which are at war with Muslims) or for purposes which will benefit the Muslims. Shaykh al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

"When a Muslim is living in a non-Muslim land (whether or not it is hostile to Islam), he is not expected to differ from them (the kuffaar) in his outward appearance, because of the harm that may result (from dressing as a Muslim). It is preferable, even obligatory, for a man to look like them sometimes, if that will achieve some religious purpose such as calling them to Islam, finding out their secrets in order to tell the Muslims about them, repelling their harm from the Muslims, and other worthwhile aims. But in the Muslim lands where Allaah has caused His religion to prevail, and where the kuffaar are in an inferior position and are paying jizyah (taxes paid by non-Muslims living under an Islamic government), it is obligatory for Muslims to look different from the kuffaar." (Iqtidaa' al-Siraat al-Mustaqeem, 1/418).

It is clear from the above that jeans are not clothes that are characteristic of the kuffaar or worn only by them, so they are not haraam. However, it is more befitting for the Muslim to try to wear distinctive Islamic dress wherever he is, in obedience to the way of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Muslim should feel in his heart that he hates the kuffaar and the way they look and behave. This hatred will motivate him to avoid looking like them at all in the way he dresses or in other ways. Do you not see that a person who despises a people or tribe, or people from a certain country, will hate to dress like them, especially if they are poor. As Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) said: "Looking like them in external appearance indicates that one loves them in one's heart, and vice versa." And Allaah knows best.

Laurent, what kind of sick ideology is this? Can't you see how this ideology is the one actually promoting to look down on people that do not believe in the same fairy tale? That it's splitting groups of people and classifies people on what they think, which will result in a different treatment? Does this strike you as an inclusive way of looking at other people or as a separating one? You like to point to the Dutch government if integration fails and you are right, putting muslims together in in neighborhoods is not wise (though the intentions were to not offend them and their culture). Part of that now is also their own fault. If a Dutch family leaves in an islamic neighborhood, it get's replaced by a muslim. That is their choice. They clit together. No wonder. If we read their holy scriptures and the advice they get, it promotes looking down on others. It promotes not seeing the Kuffaar as an equal being. That of course results in bad integration as the whole ideology aims to not let that happen, but to spread their doctrine into Kuffaar country. It's their intentions that are not pure. All we want here is equality between all groups and people. Defend your rights to be who you want to be and defend that of others. That is not doable if people fill their hearts with hate towards people that are not like them. There is a conquest vibe to what I read above and that was not the condition with which we took people in.

My second point would be that it actually does not matter that much who has the exact right interpretation. It is about impact. You have a to weigh it. This one scholar can be right or wrong, but if Osama has a bigger following, is very popular and stays damn close to the fundamentals of the religion (which he did), then that is something that matters. The democratic structure of Islam, contrary to the hierarchical Roman Church (where there is a pope on top) is a huge problem, but a problem they need to own up to. It can no longer be used as an excuse to not feel responsible for other muslims. If others are running away with your religion, then speak out and make efforts to organize things in such a way that it no longer happens.

If you read such a version as the Skeptic Quaran, you get a sense of how I see such a book through my secular atheist eyes. It's gross and totally backward. There is also a chapter that contains all the good stuff that is in the Quran, but why elevate such a vile book to the status of holy or perfect? And last time I checked, most, if not all muslims, believe in a hell and heaven. What do they do in hell? Organize some football games and grab some bears afterward? No, torture, for a damn long time. For what? For not acknowledging a psychopath? What are these people on? Not just a small percentage of them, but all people that think that a guy who says he is going to torture people for the rest of times are offending me. Worship something like Dnepropetrovsk maniacs? Never. They worship a petty, small psychopath.

This is a good series on the emotions that we see from the God in the Bible. I am sure a lot of it is applicatble on the God of the Quran:

* God's Emotions: Why the Biblical God is So Very Human

I see there is another series now and I am sure it is worth it as well (not seen it yet though):

* Christian Belief Through the Lens of Cognitive Science

Religion and certainly Islam is holding us back. If you worship petty psychopaths, and actually find any justification for the reasoning of their actions, then you get the destructive advice as you see above in my added Spoiler button about wearing Jeans. The fact we are talking about such a question and even inequality comes into play with such a subject, holds a very important reason of why integration is not working also and that is placed firmly at the feet of the muslims, not western society with their left liberal ideas of equality and human rights.

This is how I think about all the Abrahamic religions:

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Alright?

Maybe you don't know this, but Netherlands is relative very non believing. Over 50% do not really believe in something specific or believe at all according to an article from Trouw. I speak more for these people. First we battled Christianity and turned into a somewhat normal ideoligy that acppeted it's humble place among others (not above!) and now we have to deal with Islam. Referring to other religions does not do it with me. In the era of the reformation and enlightment they went all ISIS with theiur inquisitions. They even had a which burning ritual in place. It took a long hard process of calming it down. Christians fo not take the Bible so literall anymore here in the Netherlands and that is alos true for many parts of Europe. Tora is more seen a piece of reflection than something to act on very strictly IIRC. Hell yes do these holy books contain crazy stuff. Islam is different though. Both in the way it is written and the process it has gone through. This is something we still have to deal with concering Islam. Too many people take the Quran still too literall.

If you do that, then you open up a whole cann of worms for Islam. Islam did a lot of plundering and conquest. Genocide of the Hindu's, genocide of the Armenians. The awkward thing though is that they are not very good at admitting it. I was recently in Berlin and they have like a whole square dedicated to remember the Holocaust. They own up and say never again. There are now a lot of troubles in the Netherlands in schools since mulsims in the class want to deny the Holocaust. How about that? For me it is about admitting it and design ways of how to live better together for the future. Pulling the shamefiles from file drawer about who did what does not bring us forward. What are good rules, good attitudes, good rituals, good mindsets to promote equality and living in peace togther? Who does best now in this ragard? Who holds the best designs for that now?

Claim for 3 is too big. There is no freedom to anything we have in the Free West. Actually Turkey is in reverse and is heading towards a theocracy. That is a risk lingering with Islam. How long can you contain it before gravitating towards it's fundamentals. Democracy does not mean a state is secular and free by the way. There are so many morre loopholes to jump through if a country wants to earn the term free. Here are 100 points to take into account according to an organisation like Freedomhouse:

• Freedom methodolgy

Sure. Christianity also promotes backwardness. It was us the secular modern guys who put them in their place in Europe. The 3 Abrahamic religions are all the same to me (look at my picture above), though Christianity has been tamed, Islam has not been tamed. It is still a childish litle tyrant that has to mature. I have seen quotes from Kezman (formarly PSV) about gays that are aweful and made me happy that he failed in his football career. Those regions have still to make a lot of steps to reach equality for all members of society and I think a lot is obstructed due to the Christian believes they have. Same goes for many other Christian regions. Even in the USA, same sex marriage is still and issue.

Because there are 1 million muslims in the Netherlands and not 1 million Venezualans. Because there are 50 million Muslims in Europe and not 50 million Venezualans. Because we try to answer the question why these Turkish and Moroccan players choose for their country of heritage and not the Netherlands. Besides violence is not the issue concering Islam, at least not for me in this discussion (many others take this angle, not me as I have said time and again now). Every sane being agrees that violance should be brought down. The problem is about values. Can islam coexist with human rights? With freedom? If muslims are taught to look down on Kuffaars, then how can you ever get to this ideal of equality?

But the Venezuelan criminality does not threaten my freedom or the freedom in Europe. Notice how I did not mention any terror issues involving Islam in all my posts. You come up now with body count numbers, not me. I am not one of those guys. I am much more a guy that sees religion as bad code. I want a country that operates with the best rules avaiable to let people become who they want to be. The media knows of the huge number of muslims in Europe and look at what majority muslim country's do.

Besides you name now 1 parameter for society, but there are many more:

• Football

How come all mulsim nations are so bad, excpet maybe a few? Better even is to point to the Moroccans able to produce quality once they are in Kuffaar country, but are not able to produce top talent from their own soil. I will never understand how people come to Europe to then think that is so imperfect yet, since we don't have the perfect Islam. Well maybe that society software is actually the problem, don't you think? Indonesia loves football, biggest sport, biggets muslim nation, yet they can't do anything when it comes to football.

• Olympics

Why do the muslim country's suck so much?

• Nobel prices

Only 2 Nobel prices for hard science. Often we are led to believe that there was some Golden Age of Islam, but I bet that was despite Islam, not thanks to it. Also all the claims about discoveries must be inspected closer: How Islamic Inventors Did Not Change The World. Lot of it is nonsense.

Besides, if there should ever be a golden age of Islam, now is the time. Never have there been more muslims. Where are they with all their scientific discoveries of the Islamic Golden age was thanks to Islam? Where is the revival? Nowhere. We are typing and using machienes that are all developed and invented by Kuffaars. We use software from Kuffaars. Even in talking to me you use Kuffar language. When you are sick, you use Kuffar medicine as pretty much everything is invented by Kuffaars in that area, as all other areas. Don't just look at Nobel prices, just also look at intelectual property applications. Look at at these lists. No muslim country's. Muslim country's are ranked damn low when it comes to innovation. Look at the global innovation index. I bet that we see the same as in football: maybe there are now some good muslim scientists, but that is as of a result of being educated in a Kuffaar country, not in a muslim country.

• Freedom

I have covered this and it is for me the paremeter that I like to use in order to discuss the problems concering European society. I have showed you rules in Morocco that simply puts the Islam over other religions. I have showed you advices from scholars that are pushing their flock to distance themseleves from Kuffaars when they are abroad. I have showed you the pact of Umar that was used to marginalize other religions in the past, but to this day also exists in some fundamental islam country's. If an ideolgy treats others unequal from the start, then how do you want to create a society with freedom for all? It will mean that Kuffaars have to look back all the time whether the muslim group does not become too big in European country's, as in all country's that know in the world, a muslim majority creates an envirement at the cost of freedom. Muslims can build their Mosks and express their religion here, but their doctrine is one of expensionism and inequality. All islam majority country's indicate that we will see blasphemy laws, apostate laws, special treatment laws in case Islam becomes big. So forget the terrorist attacks in the news, I am talking about the danger that islam rewrites the rules to give itself a special status at the cost of other peoples freedom. Thát is the issue.

• Human development index

This tells a whole lot. Why are the islamic country's so undeveloped if they contain so many people that follow the true religion? The perfect word of God?

• GDP per capita

Some islamic nations do well, but that is just from sitting on a mountain of oil. That is not developing a complex economy. To undscore this point you can just look at the Fortune 500 list. Muslim country's don't have big company's. They just sit on oil and if they are luckey having a smart leader is reinvesting it in some other areas, like tourism, then they probably ask western nations to develop stuff.

• Happiness report from the United Nations

This is also a parameter and a bigger one than just homocides. Do people feel happy in a country? Kind of important. I don't see a whole lot islam nations ranking so high.

How can Islam country's do so poor in all these category's? If we should judge religion by it's people, then oh dear. Does it optimize the quality of their life? Elevate them from poverty and ignorance? Do they contribute a whole lot to optimize the conditions for human kind to live in? Do they excel to promote equality and innovation? Promote freedom? Why do they suck in sports so much? How come they suddenly are able to perfrom when they are developed in those free country's?

I am not saying that the Free West is perfect or don't have a whole lot of problems to solve, but what claim does islam have when it comes to being a good designer to produce happy, balanced people and society's? Yeah, maybe balanced when they have bullied other thinking people into submission or made them leave the country. That is probably the reason why some are able to not end up at the bottom in some of these indexes. They are so homogeen and oild rich, that feeling tension towards others is basicly impossible. All neighboors are muslim after all and if not, they will probably feel reasons to be angry or grieved about for some futile reason, rather than look for commen ground. That has nothing to do with being a catalyst for freedom and equality.

I think that the claim that islam spreads, as if their religion leads to some kind of better society or people is bullshit. I think that it shoud lay off the arrogance and stop looking down on Kuffaars. I think that an ideoligy that classes people as islam does (muslims, dhimmi's, kuffaars) leads to inequality, suppression, violation of human rights, group thinking, rather than having a universal approach. Just look at Palestine. All mental energy goes to the "brothers", but where is the outrage for Thibet? Where is the application of care for all humans? You see what I mean? How can a society create integration if a group puts itself above others and only think about their own group?

This is all related to Dutch Moroccan and Turkish players wanting to represent the country of heritage over the Netherlands. Maybe the Dutch goverment did not use the best methods to integrate muslims and I think the USA has done it a lot better. However, there is also a mental infrastructure in place with muslims that reject their adoptive country. A mental infrastructure that is shaped by a religion and a direct social circle that subscribes to the same religion, feeding into this even more, that pushes the rest of society away as it wants a special status as it thinks that it is so much better than other ways of thinking. I hope you see how this creates big problems for integration in a country like Netherlands (or any country for that matter).


Cheers

 

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Apart from your rambling being off by a mile or so in addressing the points that have been made in the valuable contributions so far , you are also wrong on a more fundamental level:

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You make a mistake that has actually suppressed and hurt all the minority's within Islam that were cornered by the blasphemy laws of their country and or social circles they grew up in (religious social pressure which also takes place here in the free western countries), while wanting nothing more than having the progressive rights that the progressive movement in this country fought and secured for themselves. Now that same group of social justice warriors has abandoned them so that they can ejaculate all over themselves for being oh so political correct. Stroking their ego. You are disgusting if you think about it and on the wrong side of the argument once again.

Well come to think about it, you were actually not part of any argument when Roma fans came into this forum. Even Ajax fans were semi defending your club fans despicable behavior when they were running ravage in one of the cultural most valuable city's of the world like a bunch of barbarians. Good to see you suddenly choose to pop up once that was behind us. Brave.

Now go on playing the SJW again and take a seat on that high horse of yours. At least it save over there. Brave soul

 

These are Molukkers in the Netherlands mostly and Molukkers are Christian often I think. I am not sure.

Only 7% of the Germans were Nazi's that really acted on the violent side of their ideology, maybe less. Look where it got us. However Islamic extremism is not just a product of a certain culture or linked to any specific race. People of all color and all cultures do it. What they have in common is the religious doctrine. Read this post I came across on another forum. http://i.imgur.com/KcHG0ad.png . Tell me what you think.

No it is us that keeps them from imposing their line of thinking. Check this report and tell me how anecdotal this polling is. See the end game of Islam in all Islam majority countries. All of them. We are not better then the people there. The same can happen to us. You immediately link freedom and the resistance to it, to violence. Violence is acute resistance. It is: I want my rules applied now. I am not saying all muslims are anti democratic. I am saying many are anti secular and freedom and long for the moment that they can put their religion above both concepts. To facilitate their religion with blasphemy laws and in doing that, granting it a special status. A status that puts it above other ways of thinking, while those other ways of thinking did accept Islam as it's equal (Islam does not and has more ambition than that). Both other religions and non religions have a problem. This way, democracy enables a non tolerant ideology to strip our freedoms from us. We see it right under our noses if we look at Turkey. Apart from that we see the same pattern in all Islamic nations if we look at the map from Freedom House.

That is very possible. The same can be said about muslim country's concerning the numbers they provide to the UN. They have very high corruption as well:

• Corruption in the World 2014

Islamic nations are ideology states and those are in the business of advertising their system as well as possible. In the Netherlands we are all about getting it right and being transparent (in general). Calculations provide the best starting point to improve. Also goes foe other more progressive European countries. For example Sweden has very high rape numbers, but that is the result of how they calculate. If in other country's a woman is raped during the year by the same man, it counts as 1 rape in the reports. In Sweden they count every single time it occurs as a rape. So 1 rape dynamic between a man and a women can lead to 300 rapes in a year, in case of Sweden. They do this as they want to solve it and want to emphasize the severity of each time that it happens. Ideology states are in the business of telling the rest of the world how great they are. Needless to say that I trust a government like Sweden a whole lot more with fair representation of their numbers, than many other countries that behave as guardians of Islam.

About the homicides. Report:

• Source

It does not paint the whole picture. Casualty's during war and civil unrest are not counted. Think of all the sectarian violence between sunnis and shiites. Think about casualties during revolutions and wars that are going on like the one now in Syria. In a recent report from the International Institute of Strategic Studies, 70% of all the fatalities in armed conflicts around the world last year were in wars involving Muslims. In 2013, there were nearly 12,000 terrorist attacks world-wide. The lion’s share were in Muslim-majority countries, and many of the others were carried out by Muslims. I think that a large share of that is not accounted for in these numbers.

Concerning the perception of violence that is bothering you, maybe I have a theory that can explain it partly. It is very revealing to know why people would go to such an ultimate thing as killing. Is it a result out of poverty, bad childhood or mental illness? Those are managble entities in the Netherlands. We can make mental illness treatment better and are not a poor country. I just read a report that we have brought back the amount of deaths per year on inter city roads (but that are not highweighs) with 100% over the past decade. That is something we are good at. Tweaking an improving stuff to elevate the conditions of our habitat. I am sure that there are improvements in the field of homicides as well. In England they have this program or so I heard, that they are already screening for potential criminal tendencies when kids are in kindergarten. I can imagine that we will see more of these programs. The earlier you are able to intervene by knowing what to look for, the better we are in preventing somebody taking the turn for the bad. Saves him/her and the potential victims.

It is something else though if people are just different in the way they value things. If they place their honor on things that collide with a free society. Nobody would ever consider killing for cartoons being worth it, or killing for others having a blasphemous opinion (Theo van Gogh). It is not just the kill, it is a line that is being drawn through the whole of society. A new "don't" has been formulated. Not by law, but by never feeling save anymore ones you have crossed the line that got van Gogh killed. So people have to consider their words and that shapes a perception. If the tongue is bitten for Islam on daily basis, but not for other religions, then the person doing that knows he is giving special status/treatment and it occurs to him that he does that out of fear. This fear realisation is connected to Islam. Hence they think that moslims are violent as he self censurs for them. It will not cover it all of the reasons, but I think it does cover part of why people have a certain perception.

Of course media and their clickthrough rate interests have figured also out that any headline with: TERROR on top does better than anything else. Clicks, means more advertisements being seen, means more money. All journalists have their rent or mortgage to pay. This is also part of the explenation of course.

Sure, though I do remember an escalating situation between the Swiss and Turks. There was also aggression from the Swiss, but the grim conditions made them feel threatened. Also, I have a local snack bar in the street with a Turkish owner and he did tell me about beatings of players after the game. Of the opponent, but also own players if they were considered not giving their all. Turks always have 1 explenation for losses. The own players did not work hard enough. Generalisation on my part, but I am always amazed how many times I hear this tossed around in their circlesas the all explaining factor. Anyway, your general point of muslim violence taking central stage in western media is well taken. It annoys me as well, since I always try to point out that it is about the ideas of human rights vs Islam that should be discussed more. So I feel that also for my concern this terror narrative is hijacking a sensible discussion about the subject I want to discuss, over and over again. This is where I normally come up with my Freedomhouse map again, which I will not do this time

I was not awere of this. In my circles China is more on the agenda. I personally have an interest in Germany and Berlin now. If I read IslamQA, then I am struck about the plain discrimination that it sells as religious doctrine. That stuff is poisonous. I am not sure if I agree with your categorization by the way. There is also a conservative group between the extremists and the street bands (who are really acting like they own the place). That is the group that wants to live in 1 neighborhood together. You suspect that it is all Dutch government who created muslim dense suburbs, but we are talking about third generation now. They move to their own also. They cocoon and shield themselves from others. That signals a disengagement with the rest of society and that does have to do with us being Kuffars. Inferior. Not to be infected with. Strange that they come to live here, but their behavior does communicate that for me. There are a lot of them.

Well, maybe the wealth and social security when they still live in their own country, but once they are here, I see little to no pride. Rarely/never do I see a Dutch Turkish or Dutch Moroccan just saying he is proud to be Dutch. I bet the same is the case in France. I don't know. I am not aware of this phenomena you speak of. There is no love for more universal values and human rights. However we have discussed how they fell back to conservative version of their religion after identity crises at the end of the nineties. Just amazed how few/none have made the jump the other side. To join the camp of universal values rather than being in the own group and do daily rage about Palestine. That has not only to do with Dutchies not accepting them (push factors), but also with strong own pull factors of their culture and religion.

I was actually raised in a time that being called a racist was a pure knock out. The thing that I was never supposed to let happen. Hirsi Ali also spoke about this in her book. How the Somalis (IIRC) in her time got away with anything by calling people racist and everybody backed immediately off as a result of that. This idea of under/above is something of the generations before me maybe. The colonial times and WW2. I think I was molded in a time that can be considered as a reaction to that darker time of inequality. Of course WW2 with it's fascism and silly ideas about race and stuff was a huge motivator to get as far away as possible from that area.

That was not to point out they were losers, but to make the point that they might consider that we do some things well here in Kuffar territory. I am just amazed at the arrogance of muslims being so sure that Islam would be such an improvement here. That it is the word of God that must reign in every corner. My point is that a bit more modesty and consideration would be justified when thinking about wanting to implement blasphemy laws and stuff. The way we have set things up here allowed us to excel. Maybe it is worth studying that, rather than throwing it away.

• Example

Well Russia has been shaped by another collective totalitarian doctrine. Communism. My battle is actually not with Islam. It is with collective extremist doctrines. Communism, Fascism and Islamism. It just so happened that we have beaten the first 2 and the collective doctrine of my time is Islamism. My whole point in all these posts has been build around individual rights. About Civil liberties, Political rights and the lack of secular credentials on the part of Islam. All their country's are not free. Looking at Turkey, I get seriously worried. The example of Russia does not surpise me. If you do not live and breath the culture that treats every human as precious and equal (no, their communism was a disaster in what it tried to achieve) and so do not facilitate that idea in every sense of the way, then you create a climate where scenes as you describe can happen. I find this actaully supporting my point. Maybe our point if you agree with my categorization.

Yes, The Copts are killed and chased in Egypt and actually there are now also in Pakistan all kinds of attacks on Christians. There is a lot of sektarian violence between muslims. It is not so much race, but there are supremacist ideas that lead people to go as far as killing the other as they are considered as not worthy of living with.

Your point about media exposure is well taken. I also understand that poverty and (geo)politics plays a role concering violence and that from a homicide perspective things are much worse in South and Middle America and actually pretty good in quite some muslim country's. However I feel that my point about human rights and the danger of apostasy laws, blasphemy laws and the reflex to give Islam special status still stands and will be the outcome of a numbers game that is going on in the Netherlands and Europe as a whole. The current group of Islamic immigrants have chosen for a large part for the conservative version of the religion of their country of heritage (you see more traditional clothing in Amsterdam than Casablanca) and are partly cocooning in our society, which leads to bad integration.

To go full circle. Living in this own cloud of culture and religion within the Netherlands leads eventually to football players preferring to play for their country of heritage, rather than the Dutch NT. Not all, but a part of them do. Especially football should function as an integration vehicle. If those players would represent Netherlands, then they can become role models and positive examples for others to follow. Bit of a shame. Orange14 has also made remarks about the power of sports in this regard. If that is the case, the reverse is also true. Many examples of players representing their country of heritage is quite damaging for integration.


Cheers