U.S. players who are college graduates?

That's a good point. The height thing in Holland is noticeable. The working theory is that dairy intake during certain critical growth periods helps drive height and the Dutch take in a larger-than-normal amount of milk and cheese. My theory is that players of all height are playing, but it's the smaller, quicker players that advance to the top ranks and thus national team.

FTR, Edwin Van Der Sar is 6'5 and Ruud Van Nistleroy is 6'2.

 

By the way, this part has already happened. http://www.fcdallas.com/youth/teams/academy

The MLS clubs are forming their own funded academies and some are doing quite a remarkable job. The main thing they do is provide top flight coaching and opportunities for skill and athletic development. The pay-to-play system where it costs an athlete's parents thousands of dollars effectively limits the talent pool before you've ever picked a player. The MLS academies identify potential talent and get them in a position to develop for the long term and best of all, it's free. Which means it's open to kids whose parents may not be able to afford it. That's more important than most realize.

 

What I find weird is tat even though I believe they have the tallest population in Europe the American sport that is popular there is actually Baseball and not Basketball( a sport that really rewards height).

 

so the kids don't pay to play for club? and club pays for all those expensive out of country trips???

 

I'm being polite when I say they suck tremendously at basketball. They just don't have the facilities. Soccer fields are scarce as it is, building gyms are out of the question. Someone will get smart and start a basketball school someday..

I think the baseball thing is overstated. Most of those players are from the Carribbean!

 

Don't quote me here, but it's my understanding they don't. But at the same time, they aren't playing in every tournament either. The club academies are a wholly different proposition than simply the 'other' academies and they level the playing field for talent development. Example: In Dallas, you've got the Dallas Texans franchise. Their head coach Hassan Nazari makes around 160k.(quoted in the Dallas Morning News) They have some good coaches, don't get me wrong, but I think the philosophy/approach of player development takes a back seat to development in some of the purely 'for-profit' As mentioned in the article on soccer development in Holland, one game a week is plenty. Particularly for 10-15 year olds. But you talk to kids here in the US and 3-4 games a week isn't uncommon.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the Dallas Cup youth tournament is a good barometer of where our program lies. In my opinion, it's probably a better gauge of where we are right now than our performance in this World Cup.

http://www.dallascup.com/

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know there is some straight bs that goes on with developing players in the US. There are a lot of questions that could be asked of this..

 

well... i am going to quote you. and i saw on their little team website that they traveled all over the place...europe, south america, mexico, etc... near and far in search of quality competition. so even if that club is free to join... it costs money to travel. i am highly doubtful FC Dallas has the money to send 3 travel teams (it said they had 3 age groups that fell into this category) all over the globe. so that's a LARGE barrier to any family without money.


but beyond that, i'm highly doubtful that FC Dallas waives club fees... maybe they do for those specific players... but ONLY a handful of players are picked for those and theyre relatively old. the youngest age is 14 and by that time in order to be a top player in texas you're going to need really good coaching.. that costs money.

the fact is... having an MLS club with a euro style developmental youth and reserve side is a really really tough task. why? money. the reason clubs do it in europe is because it can make them money. but if you're not churning out big time players that you can sell to big time clubs in a big time league... then it doesn't make financial sense. you can't tell me that FC Dallas breaks even on this or even comes remotely close to breaking even IF they were to subsidize everything... training, gear, travel, etc... there's no way. which former youth player have they sold to make money for this thing?

 

I know for a fact there are players that pay nothing. That may not be every player, but I can assure you some are free and that does include travel fees. And I can also tell you not every venture has to be a profit center, either. If FC Dallas for example gets kids wearing it's jerseys, it gets more done marketing from that standpoint than it does with highway billboards in a lot of cases.

I'm not sure what the bias is against MLS managed Academy clubs, but I can tell you they played a big part in fielding competitive teams in the Dallas Cup. There have been a few good clubs compete in the Dallas Cup from the US, but if you want to see the development gap in terms of individual skill, it's right there for all to see.

 

You're missing the effect of marketing the brand in a local area. And I doubt they send EVERY player on trips around the globe. I guess I'm not sure why you think a youth soccer club has to be profitable and can't benefit from the support of an MLS franchise. You're discounting sponsorship and advertising quite a bit as well, plus the fact they are getting cost free use of MLS facilities.

The biggest costs are insurance, facilities and the coaching staff. When an MLS franchise can spot you two out of three, you have a big advantage right out of the gate against an organization that has to pay for everything else.

Morever, the MLS academies are getting good coaches. If they corner that market, the players will follow regardless..

 

Btw, any time a player is sold to another league it hits the clubs books. It doesn't have to be an Academy player vs. a first teamer. Money is money. So you could make the case that this is about getting player roped into MLS before they might get snatched up by other leagues.

To give you an idea of the numbers, it was my understanding that Phil Anschutz bought individual franchises for around $2 mil, sold them for $10 mil. He made his money and was gone. Lamar Hunt bought the rights to the Dallas Burn, err FC Dallas, but now it's his kids that manage it and they have a war chest to invest more, if need be. They aren't hurting for $$. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Dallas is a well run franchise(IMO, it isn't), but the key is simply viewership. Right now, stadium attendance for sporting events is starting to dip a bit, as most of us would rather sit in air-conditioning and watch it on a flat screen TV. But the MLS brand is fine in terms of TV revenue.

I'd also say that I think you can see the strength of professional soccer in the US not in MLS, but by the sheer number of regional semi-pro leagues....

 

Agreed. I remember going to a park in the Hague and everyone was playing football on the grass. Only guys using the basketball court were some Polish guys.

 

I definitely agree. But it is quite odd how many players they have on the squad below average. For the equivalent to our boys (US height is nearly 5'10) we'd have a bunch of guys who are between 5'6-5'9. And thats the height of nearly all of Spain's roster and a lot of Latin American/Asian squads. De Jong is 5'9, Kuyt is 6'0, Huntelaar is 6'1. Heitinga with 87 caps is only 5'11 yet played CB. Now it's just height but it would seem if you're a shorter player, your possibility with an inclusion with their squad doesn't count against you. Whereas can u imagine a 5'5 guy playing for USA/England and starting?

 

Problem is with our 5'10 number is that it's still an average in country with over 300 mil. That leaves a lot of room for variation. I'm more surprised the tallest player is a 6'5 guy named Gonzalez.

 

let me tell you a story. i played competitive club soccer growing up... continued in high school... played in college... afterwards i did some coaching at the club level.


i coached a U16 boys team... one of the better ones in the state. in our club there was a remarkably athletic 13 year old who also played on our team along with his U13 team. he typically played up top for his team but we played him in a defensive mid position because of his athletic ability. although he was about 6 inches shorter than everyone else he could run faster and jump higher than just about everyone else on our team.

we were playing the best team in the state in a tournament that year and we typically played them fairly tight. our team and theirs had a handful of future college level players. in particular they had one kid who was above average... went on to play and contribute at top 10 div 1 school.

i can tell you our 13 year old shut down this future big time player just on pure athletic ability alone. completely taken out of the game. physically dominated.


that 13 year old went on to play defensive back at a top 20 div 1 school.


my point is this... this is a common story in america. there are probably hundreds... maybe thousands of kids who have his athletic ability and would fit the appropriate build to play soccer... think db's and rb's in football... pg's in basketball... anyone who played at an reasonable div 1 level at those positions is extraordinarily athletic.

if those guys played soccer... started a young age... continued through the club ranks at elite clubs like the dallas texans or chicago magic or socal united... or whoever else there is these days... and then went on to play college soccer together... we wouldn't be having this discussion today. the US would be an elite national team... forget about your little euro developmental clubs... they don't matter. what matters is athletes. the US has a ton of really incredible athletes... they just don't play soccer. getting those athletes to choose soccer should be USSOCCER's main goal. that's all they should focus on. how do they get elite athletes to pick soccer at a young age and stick with it... to get involved with elite clubs.. and get into college. that's what we need to do. euro style clubs will NOT get elite athletes to do this.

the fact is... i played in college... i know a ton of people who did as well... i also know a fair amount of guys who went on to play in the mls. when i compare this groups athletic ability to those of the college football players i know it's not even comparable. not even in the same universe. and i'm ok with that. i'm ok with where i fit into that. i'm ok with where my sport here in america fits into that. when or if soccer overtakes the NFL and the NBA in popularity here in america... we're going to have an amazing national team. until that happens... this is where we are and it isn't changing.

 

I agree that the US isn't getting the NBA/NFL quality athlete to play soccer. Like your situation, I split an apartment with a future NBA'er that played over a decade in the NBA and lived on the same apartment block as an NFL db who played in a superbowl. We both agree that is a much higher quality athlete than MOST playing soccer in the US. While I agree that it will help when those athletes choose soccer, I don't think that will close the gap completely.

You're discounting the quality of athlete that is playing in Europe and certainly Africa. Africa has athletes by the thousand who fit the same mold as the NBA/NFL athlete you describe above. Even in England, France, Holland I've seen athletes that were elite in terms of speed and agility. We saw kids in Holland that were strong, quick powerful AND capable of controlling a football(soccer ball). You and I are both older, so the guys our age were perfect representatives, but for a long time there was a drinking culture that followed the athletes in Europe's top leagues. It's crazy to imagine, but plenty of top players would pound beers after games. Little priority was placed on conditioning and the mantra was, "you play your way to shape." Even in England, there is still quite a bit of resistance. But that's changed quite a bit. Particularly because coaches like Klinsmann copied things he learned in the US. Most notably, he hired Athletes Performance to help the German team prepare.
http://www.athletesperformance.com/blogs/in-the-news/athletes-performance-inc-becomes-exos-in-global-corporate-rebranding-ap.html
And when the Germans dogged everyone physically, the rest of the world jumped right on that bandwagon.
My point is, we led the world in training our athletes and preparing them physically. But the rest of the world is starting to catch up, not only by steering better athletes but by training just like we do. So I doubt just having better athletes isn't going to get us there, because they are starting to do the things we've done for years.

And I think you're discounting the skill development and the environment necessary to develop soccer skill.
I'm not sure I agree that athletic ability alone will carry us and I see that here in Texas all the time. The kids from Latin America are generally a step down from the AVERAGE kid playing soccer in the US. But their skill development and confidence on the ball is excellent, and as a result you see some GREAT teams made up of kids from Mexican neighborhoods. It certainly isn't going to hurt us when top athletes choose soccer. But that's happening around the world, too. And I'm convinced that our environment doesn't put skill development at the top of the priority list...

 

And one other thing I think matters is motivation. Particularly economic motivation. There is a world of difference between playing against someone who wants to take your lunch money so he can eat and a player who is simply content. In the US, there is a complete bell curve of economic circumstance. We have the richest of the rich and we have 3rd world poor. Historically, soccer has been played in the suburbs. But give it time, it's going to branch out and you'll see soccer being played in far more economically diverse neighborhoods. Both matter. You need it at both ends of the spectrum.

We both agree that our superior athletes in the US trend towards basketball, football, baseball. But I'll also contend that those athletes are not only talented but extremely motivated to succeed. They hear and feel pressure from their family and friends to be successful in their sport and they enjoy cult-here status when they start to get a taste of it.

I practically got shelled and banned from this board for suggesting that a certain former MNT player wasn't as hungry as professionals in other sports, but I'll stand by that claim. The elite athletes in this country aren't just great athletes, they are extremely competitive and motivated people that are hungry for success.

 

the difference between the US and those other countries is population and money.


greater populations mean more athletes... it means more competition... it means a greater chance for a once in a generation type athlete. whats the population difference between germany or the netherlands and the US?

you talk about africa... they don't have money to support training that would reach all their citizens. if you think our current system lets a lot of players through holes... what do you think it's like in cameroon or the ivory coast? in a lot of these places they struggle just to get basic human requirements for life to everyone... forget about training athletes.

 

this is my point all along. we don't have a soccer culture. if we did... like we do in football and basketball... all the athletes would play soccer... it'd be popular... there'd be money involved. of course they would choose it. but creating a euro style developmental club under pro teams is NOT going to do that. that happens naturally over time... and if the NFL gets sued out of existence...

 

A little O/T but hey it takes brainpower.

Bradley may not be a college graduate or have attended but dammit he's multi-lingual which is incredibly impressive. Fluent in Dutch, German and Italian. Maybe Spanish. Heard that somewhere. Jozy is fluent in French/Spanish and apparently Dutch. And Donovan in Spanish and German.

 

But...you could take the best American athletes and put them through the most common arc that an American soccer player would take: youth teams, college, MLS. And when they come out of it they won't be elite soccer players.

Yes, its a problem that many of our best athletes aren't playing soccer but its equally a problem that we don't have the system in place to produce elite players.

 

Did Guzan not graduate from South Carolina?

 

We have plenty of good players - but not quite good enough training/development. There are loads of physically and mentally talented kids playing soccer, but there are not enough of them getting great training. Look at Rossi going to Parma or JOB to Ajax. Two "normal" American kids, growing up steeped in soccer - end up as two of our most technically strong players. Take about 200 or 300 of your top prospects from the top 10 U12's in the US, ship them to Ajax or Lille or Clairfontaine or Barca academy or Santos or Sporting or a good German academy - or split them up and ship a group to each - in 10-12 years we would have a very, very different soccer team. Now, who is going to write the check?

 

We have had plenty of players move to European clubs at young ages and not amount to much. There are more Vincenzo Bernardo cases than there are Giuseppe Rossi cases.