Daily Mail Top 50 players ever

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PDG1978, Jun 14, 2009.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Good post, but this tend to happen all the time with a variety of players.
     
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    While I agree with what you say, but I would add, it would be ONE among the requirements (or criteria) but not the only (= silly)

    In contrary, I would also add that it would be also "silly" to rate the player (and his ability) solely on his "trophies cabinet" ! That would be ONE among the criteria as well but NOT the most nor the only criterion

    =============================================================
    Example of the 1st paragraph:
    One can not say JorgeMagico was the best player since in his best form he was like a Maradona ( = but his best form was just a few % over whole career!)

    Example of 2nd paragraph:
    Zidane won almost everything in football and so he would be the best player (ever)? (but one may also add, BTW he was not that great in skills compared to other greatest (!)
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #1403 JamesBH11, Nov 23, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
    Related to this topic, and not sure if someone posted this before (somehow I did not recall, and please ignore if it was)

    Guardian UK made a great list of GREATEST XI players in history (right after WC2010 event) ... also the most controversial one with some names that we would see * English bias as usual? (but it was an ONLINE vote in UK so they did admit it ...)


    Steven Gerrard – the one man tracking back in our World XI?
    The Liverpool captain was a controversial choice among readers, but in an attacking team Steven Gerrard's tackling could prove his worth


    [​IMG]


    And here close up of the VOTES in each category:

    1- Strikers:
    Please choose two strikers for your Greatest Ever Football XI

    23%Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima
    18%Diego Maradona (confusion here with his name )
    15%Pelé

    1%Jimmy Greaves
    0%Hugo Sanchez
    3%Ferenc Puskás
    1%George Weah
    8%Marco van Basten
    4%Gerd Müller
    0%Just Fontaine
    0%Jean-Pierre Papin
    1%Eusebio
    8%Dixie Dean
    5%Dennis Bergkamp
    2%Alfredo Di Stéfano
    1%Samuel Eto'o
    2%Gabriel Batistuta
    1%Bobby Charlton
    1%David Villa
    2%Gary Lineker
    1%Filippo Inzaghi
    1%John Charles
    0%Nándor Hidegkuti
    2%Romário
    0%Emilio Butragueño

    2- Midfielders
    Please choose four midfielders for your greatest XI

    18%Zinedine Zidane
    1%Bryan Robson
    11%Johan Cruyff
    6%George Best
    4%Michel Platini
    5%Xavi Hernandez
    2%Michael Laudrup
    1%Paul Gascoigne
    2%Ruud Gullit
    1%Bernd Shuster
    9%Steven Gerrard (edged over G Best)
    5%Lothar Matthäus
    2%Cristiano Ronaldo
    1%Alan Ball
    0%Marco Tardelli
    1%Figo
    4%Roy Keane
    2%Georgie Hagi
    2%Patrick Vieira
    7%Lionel Messi
    3%Socrates
    10%Diego Maradona
    0%Demetrio Albertini
    1%Johan Neeskens
    1%Dave Mackay

    3- Defenders:

    Choose one right back

    21%Lilian Thuram
    4%Berti Vogts
    52%Cafu
    5%Giuseppe Bergomi
    16%Carlos Alberto
    2%Djalma Santos

    Choose one left back
    68%Paolo Maldini
    8%Bixente Lizarazu
    8%Andreas Brehme
    6%Paul Breitner
    6%Ashley Cole
    4%Ruud Krol

    Choose two centre backs
    32%Franz Beckenbauer
    21%Franco Baresi

    6%Marcel Desailly
    4%Laurent Blanc
    12%Bobby Moore
    2%Ronald Koeman
    2%Claudio Gentile
    1%Daniel Passarella
    9%Paul McGrath
    3%Lucio
    5%Frank Rijkaard
    1%Giacinto Facchetti
    2%Jürgen Kohler

    4- Goalkeeper:
    Choose your favourite goalkeeper
    9%Iker Casillas
    11%Gianluigi Buffon
    31%Peter Schmeichel
    6%Gordon Banks
    1%Rinat Dasayev
    8%Lev Yashin
    4%Dino Zoff
    3%Peter Shilton
    2%Sepp Maier
    8%Neville Southall
    4%Pat Jennings
    5%Oliver Kahn
    2%José Luis Chilavert
    0%Jan Tomaszewski
    1%Petr Cech
    1%Fabien Barthez
    0%Jean Marie Pfaff
    0%Andoni Zubizarreta
    0%Roque Maspoli
    0%Anton "Toni" Turek
    2%Edwin van der Sar
    0%Gilmar
    0%Thomas Nkono
    1%René Higuita
    1%Michel Preud'homme
     
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  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Who?
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Even happens with the Peles, Garrinchas, Maradonas and Cruyffs in history. E.g. for judging best dribbler ever they look at how much juggling with the ball they can find in videos.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Also peculiar how you rate Klinsmann as high as #29 while he has only once in his career a goal-tally of more than 20 goals... For Tottenham Hotspur...

    Or how eight dusty Hungarian strikers gain an inclusion. Or Hernan Crespo or Pippo Inzaghi for that matter.
     
  7. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Football is a funny sport, because the population of a nation is by no means proportional to its footballistic acumen. Countries like China, India, Indonesia and USA with 3.5 billion people have produced less great footballer than tiny Denmark with 5 million (or Sweden with 9 million).

    The problem is that some small countries' TV broadcasters - for the lack of economical profitability - didn't cover their own leagues the way that "big" countries always did.

    In 1980, when Torbjörn Nilsson was playing at a very high level, he wasn't even included in Guerin Sportivo's list of the most expensive players of Europe, while some fairly average British players - wellknown from TV-broadcasted matches - , were extremely expensive: Trevor Francis', Tony Woodcock's and Laurie Cunningham's price tags were apprx 600,000 euros (but none of them have been among the more than 200 players voted as all time top 50), while truly great platers like like Platini, Sócrates, Falcão and Passarella were real bargains in comparison.

    To get "balanced" votes in a poll like this one, we would need a good share of people who have personally experienced the 40s, 50s and 60s (like Bengt Grive) to participate. Unfortunately there are few of them left and those who are still among us are not likely to find their way to Bigsoccer.com.

    When Platini ended his carreer, Guerin Sportivo wrote he had been one of the truly great players of the game, at the same level as a Juve legend like Karl Aage Præst. Karl Aage Who? 99% would say today.
     
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  8. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    #1408 Krokko, Nov 24, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
    Not being included in anyone's top 50 when you have 70 people naming more than 200 names is quite extraordinary when you were the best goalscorer in European Cups the last decade where all nations were still competitive on club level. At least, that's how I see it.

    I don't think anyone with some football knowledge is "artificially" surprised by not seeing Piet Keizer, Larbi Ben Barek, György Sárósi, Ronald Koeman, Rob Rensenbrink, Jari Litmanen, Jean Tigana, Wim van Hanegem, Alain Giresse or Igor Belanov being included in one single top 50 - or even top 100 - list. The astonishment is probably very geuine.


    In Sweden, where people have actually seen him play, Nilsson is ranked at the same level as Liedholm and Gren and higher than Hamrin. Only Ibrahimovic is ranked clearly higher, while many people - who have seen them both - consider him on the same level as Gunnar Nordahl. The same Nordahl that was f i v e times Serie A top scorer and the second best all-time scorer in the Serie A, despite having played many of his top seasons in Sweden (Norrköping).

    Is it your opinion that Nordahl also would need "a real push" to make it into a top 500?
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Is Ibrahimovic considered the best Swedish player ever?
     
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  10. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Until one or two years ago there could have been some discussion, but now he's definitely considered #1 by at least 60% of people.
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Baffling. That someone delivering so poorly in the greatest club competition of his time (knockout CL) is considered the greatest. What has changed with a year/two years ago?
     
  12. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    He's scored some sweet goals against Anderlecht
     
  13. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    I think he showed a committment in the NT that was often missing before. He seems to be more consistent than before and he has also - finally - dropped some bad habits, like getting red cards and insulting crowds.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Last season he was red carded against Valencia in the knock-out stage (February 2013) plus other acts like kung-fu kicks.
    Maybe it is for NT different or the Swedish public doesn't care much about how he acts outside the national team (which I also see in my own country btw; see the difference between how Philip Cocu is viewed inside this country vis-a-vis other midfielders like Davids and Seedorf, and how he is seen by all other nations).
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    After reviewing the other topscorers I can understand Krokko his rebuttals. Ofc Nilsson his topscorer titles were aided by goals over Luxembourg teams but so were the ones of Puskas, Papin, Müller, Eusebio (among others with multiple topscorer titles).
    Reminds me of a similar discussion in the Ballon d'Or thread where biased people point at the 'weak' teams Cristiano Ronaldo scored against in the Champions League, without applying the same logic to his competitors.
     
  16. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Nilsson's title as the best EC goalscorer of the 1980s was remarkable, since he only played until the 1985/86 season. He was still at the top when he quit in the summer of 1986 and he could very well have continued scoring with the same frequency also in in the following seasons.

    The problem here is - of course - that most people don't have enough visual impressions to be able to rate him.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    But yours add up to 1988.

    What if the range is extended from 1979-1990?
     
  18. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England



    But it's been established that at least 40% of those people are sadly mistaken... ;)
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe it is also related to other things like the status of countries...

    Example: because (Brazil fan) James was so adamant in claiming that Didi played an outstanding 1954 World Cup, I looked at various teams of the tournament that are posted on the internet and published elsewhere, but Didi doesn't make C or D teams really.

    This is also for 'Peru FC' who has blindly repped James his posts about this subject.
     
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  20. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Well to be fair .. I heard your point and it was good , but NOT good enough to back Nilsson to be in the "best all time"

    For your last bold: yes I think you're right that most people did not have a good live watching games to rate Nilsson to certain degree. HOWEVER, did it ever cross your mind WHY?

    Because it was Nilsson fault (or fate? or bad luck?) whatever it is that he DID NOT SHOW the world what a player he was ... except a brief performance at UCL85 ... well near his career end!

    Twice, his performance was poor when he went abroad (PSV and Germany) and he had no international record good performance!

    Sorry, Nilsson was even behind Ibrahimovic, and let along Liedholm, Nordahl, Hamrin... who ALL SHONE in big stage of Europe and world ...
    ================================================================

    Your claim was just like some SA fan who tried to beef up El Magico (Jorge) into high status ... and even I have to admit Jorge was a better skills footballer than Nilsson
     
  21. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England



    There's always that RoyoftheRovers bastard that blindly reps "Puck" as well... ;)
     
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  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I had to smile. Often I like your humour mister Roy...
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    And I am sure that you two (blindly) rep each other ... without validate the context and true situation!

    First I did NOT say Didi was "outstanding" at WC54 like Puck said (??) I ONLY replied to his comment about Didi having JUST a WC58 as great performance, so I jumped and said, besides that Didi was good at other competitions like WC54 and copa 57 ...

    Secondly, then Puck "twisted" the context and claimed (blindly) that Didi was JUST an "traditional forward" ??
    I am not so sure if he knows the FACT that Didi was NEVER a forward (in any sense) to start with. Didi was always a "traditional #8" (AM) or a classic playmaker (#10) in MIDFIELD

    So ... Let's DOUBLE REP for his 2 counterfeits
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, sorry. You used the words "very good" for that. Depends on how you see it but "very good" wasn't good enough for making C or D teams of the 1954WC (as a Brazilian player).

    I never denied or argued against that he wasn't good at a few Copa America tournaments. I did not say either that he was 'just' great at 1958WC. See my post at page 54 here. What I said is that 1958WC (where some saw him as the best player of the winning side) cemented his status. See page 54. I did not say that it is the only thing he has.

    However, when you started to say that 1954 was "very good" (among other things), I replied to that part. Page 55.

    Sorry but I just disagree with this... Nothing more, nothing less. One thing though: I did not say "traditional forward". I said: "Around 1954 he was as 'traditional' inside-forward [...]".
    Certainly he played at the 1954WC in a more advanced position...
     
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  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Lets' roll back the years with the formation and some nomenclatures

    From 40-50 most teams following the PYRAMID formation, here only two class of players: ATTACKERs and DEF playing in a SIMPLE TACTIC games: 5 attackers and 5 defenders to form a 2 3 5

    Outside L(#11)-- Inside L(#10)-- Center FW (#9) Inside R (#8) Outside R (#7)
    -------- L half back (#6)-- Center Half back(#5)-- R half back-(#4)
    -----------------Fullback L (#3)--- Fullback R (#2)----------------

    Didi always were an "INside Right" or #8 (most his life) according to 2 3 5 classic definition (like Moreno, Kocsis)
    (or Pele, Puskas, Pedernera .. were Inside Left with #10 while Di Stefano, Cruijff were center forward with #9)

    ==================================================

    Now in Brazil 50's, they adopted the WM formation and modified a bit so called "diagonal W-M" (not flat)

    This is WC54 Brazil team in 3 2 2 3 (W-M DIAGONAL)
    (diagonal -- for both N Santos and Didi have free role to roam in attack, while Pinheiro and D Santos and Brandaozinho stay back )

    Rodriguez(11) ----Baltazar(9) ------Julinho(7) ---------
    -------------Pinga (10) ------ DIDI (8) -----------------
    ----------------- Pinheiro (6) ------Bauer(5) -------------
    NSantos (3) -----------Bradaozinho(4)-----DSantos(2)--
     
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