An NFL every other year, if marketed correctly should be able to get a TV deal. I understand your frustration. As an MLS fan I know about "completely irrelevant fringe product" all too well.
No. Not unless the NFL pays for it - otherwise there is no reason for any channel to put NFL on TV in prime time. Maybe a minor channel - but those on the other hand wouldn't be able to pay big bucks to show the game. However... the much bigger issue is - without a deal for the whole league (which might be what he was getting it), there's nothing to gain for the BFL. There might be a small chance to get that one game... but the NFL would gain nada in the long, as those viewers won't become regular viewers (as they can't).
A very short-sighted view. Especially when one knows that two of the biggest German American Football hotbeds are Hamburg and Braunschweig. If the NFL ever held a regular season game ANYWHERE in Germany, it would sell out without a problem. Enough Americans and Germans would travel to sell it out. As far as keeping it near American bases, I believe the old Rhein-Fire had very good attendance when they played at the Arena auf Scheisse. I believe they wouldn't have a problem selling out Dortmund, Frankfurt or Munich. And as far as I know, it isn't the NFL that's considering a European Division, it's the NBA. Well, at least the NBA is closer to making it actually happen. But if the NFL did have a European Division, you can bet the majority of the teams would be Germany-based. To you guys talking TV contract. Are you just talking free TV? Because the NFL is already shown here on ESPN America. And I believe for the past few seasons the Conference Championship Games and the Super Bowl have been shown on ARD/ZDF....... The Super Bowl has been shown on ARD/ZDF for quite a few years now.
Both in trouble, though - Hamburg left the German Football League voluntarily last season because of financial difficulties, and Braunschweig has constantly declining attendances for years now. They already discussed moving in the past, as sooner or later (unless the trend is stopped) they won't be able to afford playing in the stadium anymore. Yeah, on some mainstream channel. ESPN America is watched by hardcore fans - but to make the NFL a real success in Germany and grow the sport they'd need casual viewers (and isn't ESPN America in English too? Or do they have German language commentators?). And yeah, the Super Bowl is already on - and gets decent ratings considering it's shown at night time. But again, due to when it's shown it's not the casual viewers they get. All assuming that the NFL would be more interested in marketing the sport to the mainstream viewers.
Dude. That doesn't mean those fans wouldn't come out for the best football. Going back to "fussball." Do you think someone like Real Madrid would sell out the Braunschweig stadium if they played a few matches there?? The best. There's a big difference between amateurs and the best. Most Americans here don't even know where Braunschwig is. But if you told them the Dallas Cowboys were going to be playing a game there, people would come from all over for it. And it would be sold out before an American ever stepped foot in the place. These people may not go to GFL games, but you put an NFL game in this country and watch how quickly it sells out. Anywhere. Am I saying the NFL is some colossus here? No. But I am saying that they already have a bigger fan base than you seem to believe they do. I don't get this. The Bundesliga doesn't even have a "free TV" contract, but the NFL has to have one?? And as I told you, they don't just show the Super Bowl on ARD/ZDF now, I believe the last two seasons, they've also shown both Conference Championship Games (semi-finals). According to ESPN, their NFL Ratings on NASN/ESPN America have skyrocketed since they started showing the NFL here in Germany again. That's not Americans as most Americans here still watch the NFL on the Armed Forces Network (AFN). And that is despite the fact that the commentary is in English. I do remember back when Premiere dropped the NFL. They used to have German commentary which you could switch to the original English commentary. Premiere didn't drop the NFL due to lack of interest. They dropped it due to their overall general financial problems. You can bet that if the NFL thought they were going wrong by keeping their German rights with ESPN America, it would be changed, but it would remain Pay-TV. The NFL will never be big enough here to secure rights on a "mainstream network" as you call it. There's only one major sport in this country. Fussball. Again, they don't have a contract with a "mainstream network" anymore, why must the NFL?? Especially when the NFL and ESPN are already very happy with the ratings numbers they get on ESPN America...... They feel they already are doing just that. Who do you feel the "mainstream viewers" are? People who just watch ARD, ZDF, Sat1, RTL and Pro7?? The NFL will never approach "fussball" numbers, but it probably can give tennis and track and field a run for their money in the future. But it would take playing a few games here, whether they be late pre-season or early regular season. NFL Europe won't happen again. Waste of time and money. I think it is only a matter of time before the NFL tries to stage a game somewhere here in Germany to gauge the fan interest. And it will do well.
That was sorta my point. Frankfurt is a bit too small, Dortmund a bit too far away from the American bases in the south I think. Dunno how much of a factor they are, but a London and Dortmund game at the same time could be an overkill. Alternating could work, or have it really spread out through the season (one at the beginning, one a play-off or so).
As I said dude, if there's an NFL game here in Germany, it doesn't matter where it is, the Americans will find it. I know quite a few Germans with that mentality too. BTW, I'll use myself as an example. I allow the distance between Garmisch-Partenkirchen and Dortmund to limit me to going to one or two BVB home matches per season. It's too far to drive regularly and I have no desire to fly. However, if the NFL were staging a game or two in Dortmund, my ass would be there each time. Fullstop. And that goes for most Americans in this region. BTW, most of our people are in central Germany these days anyhow....... I believe the real jist of the main conversation is how many Germans would get out and support it, right??
Footy, I don't doubt those people exist. I just doubt that they would sell out the Westfalenstadion, given normal NFL prices and a game in London not too far away timewise. And even if so, at normal NFL prices you will not draw a lot of the German audience to the game, which we established should be the goal for the NFL to broaden the appeal of football. You don't have to win over the hearts of the die-hard fans, thier hearts are already won over. The only way to make that happen would be to give the broadcast rights for said game away to ARD/ZDF/RTL or Pro 7 for free (maybe in a package with the TV rights for the super bowl). Even then I guess it is more likely to be broadcasted by NDR or VOX... I am not saying they will beat football, but gaining the popularity of team handball or ski jumping, or even just Basketball, on TV would be an worthy aim. They tried the hockey approach (established small pro-league, almost nothing on free TV), and failed. They need free TV to reach a broad audience, as the PayTV market is so small that they won't win a lot of new fans. It is not about financial viability, it is about establishing themselves. That's why their situation in regards to TV is not comparable to that of Fußball, I'd rather compare it to Hockey or Team Handball (both of which are driving different strategies). It also lacks the exposure those sports get at big events like the olympics (I am not saying the super bowl isn't big, but it'll never be very big over here for timing issues alone).
You just don't know man. You just don't know. Do you really think those nearly 90,000 who sell out Wembley every time the NFL shows up are just Brits???
Well, the local fanbase here (in Braunschweig) isn't that big (that's not relevant for a possible NFL game - those would sell out anywhere in Germany. That wouldn't be a problem - btw, not sure if people know that, but the NFL used to play regular pre-season games in Germany (during the 90s). Those sold (or nearly sold) out the Berlin OS. For local football, probably much bigger possible fanbases in Frankfurt, Berlin etc. than in Northern Germany. However, as for the local fans - there the difference was that Hamburg and Braunschweig had top motch marketing during the 90s. The problem is that they couldn't make money with that. The people who stay away now don't stay away because of the quality of play (those who still go are those who possibly could judge this in the first place), but because of the lack of marketing. During the 90s, the football team in Braunschweig was better run than the soccer club. By far - the marketing was just huge. They had Herbert Grönemeyer or Nena come in and play [music, not on the team ] there for league games [Note for Americans: for German musicians that's major league]. Now that's hard... possibly, as the stadium isn't that big. Would be harder to sell than NFL, especially if it's an exhibition against some other random European team. Still, they would only need to get 25.000 which is possible (I don't think Hannover would sell out such a game, that's too big a stadium already). Well, I'm usually the guy who says that American football has a decent siced fan base in Germany. For years I told people on BS that, actually (see also the NFL Europe threads on the football sub forum). Yes - soccer is a major sport. The Bundesliga doesn't need the exposure - everyone already knows the league. Football is a niche sport - you don't grow the fanbase if people have to get an obscure cable channel first. And the NFL can't make money - ESPN America reaches 1 million homes in Germany. And now - not all of them are football fans (they show basketball and hockey as well - and there are probably a few hundred thousand people who only get it as part of their cable package, but never watch it). For the NFL that's not worth the trouble to promote the game here. The skyrocketing thing seems like marketing talk to me. They don't publish ratings as far as I know (at least with google I couldn't find any). Yeah, I know (I should have said Super Bowl and conference finals). Anyway, they get decent ratings for night time programm 3-5k people. It was actually the NFL which dropped Premiere - they weren't willing to show as many games as the NFL wanted (at least that's what non-official sources say, I doub't they NFL gave a statement why they rejected Premiere's offer to renew the contract back then): http://www.allesaussersport.de/archiv/2009/01/31/good-bye-nasn-hello-espn-america/ Again, because soccer is a major sport. They aren't on free to air TV because pay-per-view makes more money. They don't need to grow their fan base either, there's still enough football free to air, and everyone knows the sport. And formula 1 is pretty big, I'd call that a major sport for sure. And tennis used to be huge [maybe you need to have been a kid in Germany in the late 80s, but we cared more about Tennis back then than the Bundesliga. I know for sure I watched more tennis than soccer on TV until at least the 1994 WC]. During my youth it had better ratings than soccer (except for Euros and WC). That's not to say football can become as big - but with the right marketing you can certainly make a sport big here. Yes, that's the kind of stations they need. They won't get a big TV contract otherwise. Currently they may be happy because they get at least some money (or don't lose money) for zero effort. But if they ever start to try to get the NFL brand going here... than they need a bigger TV contract. They actually said as much themselves - the reason why they don't play in Germany so far is exactly that they can't earn money from TV rights here right now: http://blog.handelsblatt.com/indiskretion/2008/02/01/die-nfl-verabschiedet-sich-aus-deutschland/
Guys, let's just agree to disagree. We seem to mostly disagree on just how much ground work remains to be done. The fact of the matter is, the NFL doesn't need Germany nor does Germany need the NFL. The NFL is already happy with its level of popularity here. However, if they choose to try to step it up, we'll see what happens then. They are more focused on the UK right now anyhow. People were skeptical that they could sell out Wembley too, but they've done it each time. As far as the what the VP said, I'm guessing he means German language rights. ESPN is very happy with their ratings.
in regards to creating a european division how exactly would that work anyway...you got the AFC and NFC conferences were does the euro division fit in...would need even another division to even it all out...maybe 2 euro divisions with one in each conference
Not going to happen unless American football becomes HUGE in Europe, which is a long ways away. For now the best hope is getting an NFL regular season game to be played in Germany. But without a good German TV contract the NFL will have very little interest.
No, those are Americans from all over Europe as well as some European die-hard NFL fans, plus some Londoners (Brits & Expats) who go there for the 'event'. No new fans. The game in Dortmund could be a succes. It would not expose any new people to the game, however, if not televised by a major TV station here. On the agree to disagree thingy: We are discussing the possibility for the NFÖ to grow their brand and play games in Germany, not be happy with their popularity and play games here. I think in the long run they will lose market share in North America (due to demographics mainly), and the only way to put something against that is to grow in other markets. Mexico, Canada and the UK won't be enough in the long run, Germany would make sense, as the sports behind soccer are rather small (compare it to Rugby and Cri
One ties into the other. Right now, the NFL will LOOK INTO "world" expansion, but it isn't something they are as "hot" on as the NBA is. The NBA is the league that "needs" it, not the NFL. You're discussing things the NFL may not care to do in the long run. Talking about it is one thing. Making it happen is another. I think you don't know what you're talking about here. The NFL is as popular in the USA as the Bundesliga is here and that isn't changing anytime soon. Even with the recession, there are still enough people making enough money to fill NFL stadiums. I think you're being mighty f#cking presumptious to state that the NFL is going to somehow need to grow in other markets. They aren't doing this in the UK because they "need" to. They are doing it because the freakin' DEMAND is there. You think the Premier League is playing exhibitions in Asia to get that market? They've already done that. They're doing it because the demand is there. If there is one knock in the NFL in the USA, it is the same one that the Premier League gets in England. That they are starting to "price out" the ordinary fan. However, just as in England it hasn't adversely affected the league's popularity. Both leagues are as popular as ever and that isn't changing anytime soon. As I said in a previous response, the NFL doesn't need Germany and Germany doesn't need the NFL. If they can't work something out to try this market, it will stay that way. And neither side will be any worse off for it.
I believe American Football has at least as much, if not more potencial in Germany than the UK. The NFL Europe has already proven that much. I don't think stadium share would be that much of a problem as long as the NFL is aware that they are secondary and have to play their games when the soccer club is out of town - the potencial host stadiums are all used by just one club right now (Frankfurt, Düsseldorf, Hamburg, with outside chances for Schalke, Dortmund, Berlin), Munich Olympic stadium would even be free, though playing NFL in Munich would be a bigger risk since there was never any notable American Football club south of Frankfurt. However I don't think it's enough to put actual teams here. Yes, a "real" NFL team would be bigger than NFL Europe, but still, any given NFL club has a 60k+ stadium and sells it out every week, and even smaller NFL teams have a turnover like major Bundesliga clubs... The stadiums in question are already on the small side by NFL standards, and it would be very hard to sell them out with American Football every week. Regarding tv: DSF, Eurosport (free tv) and Premiere (pay tv) would probably be willing to show it, but at least initially, they wouldn't pay much. And at least for the free tv channels there's the question wether they'd show NFL when there's an interesting Handball or Ice Hockey game at the same time. Bottomline is I think there certainly is enough interest for an exhibition match like the annual Wembley thingy to work out well, but I doubt there's enough money to be made to put actual NFL franchises into the country.
That doesn't mean much because they don't expect much. They show the American broadcasts so they do not have much work to do / high costs to pay. They just pay an apparently reasonable license fee and that's it. But we can safely ignore ESPN America when discussing football on German TV. As others have mentioned it doesn't reach many viewers. Playing exhibition games in Germany only makes sense for the NFL if they can reach new potential fans. And ESPN America is of no help here. I don't think so. The NFL Europa's problem was that it cost a lot of money but the NFL didn't benefit from their investements. No relevant media coverage = no new fans = waste of money. I don't see why the same shouldn't be true for an exhibition game. The German TV market is markedly different from the TV markets in most other countries in the Western hemisphere as we do not have any successful pay-TV channels. Sky just got another 350million $ (or was it even €?) from Mr Murdoch to keep them alive (well, "undead" would be more adequate). Sports channels are niche channels people will only watch when they already know they like the sport. There's no big sports network that can afford to properly market a new product. The NFL has to look for one of the big free-TV channels to show the game. And that's not going to happen. I mean, just look at what the ARD does with the Superbowl broadcast - they bring the worst commentators imaginable (I remember the guy that said "Roethlisberger - the Americans call him Rafflisbörgä, but since we are Germans, I'll call him Röötlieesberger) and usually show pre-game reports on how dangerous football is for the human brain and how big a problem doping is in football... Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: German football fans do not really want pro football being played here. The concensus seems to be "nah, won't work, stay in America". I'm actually an optimist when it comes to football in Germany measured by German standards. I disagree. Sure the NFL is doing great in the US, but they want to grow and make even more money like every league on the planet wants to do. And your home market will be saturated at some point. That's why the European soccer leagues are looking to North America and Asia and try everything to promote the sport there. There's money to be made! So I think the NFL does have to go abroad to keep growing.
The thing is that we are arguing different thing, footie. I, and I believe most others here wanted to discuss the topic at hand on the assumption that the NFL wants to grow their marketshare abroad, and specifically in Germany. If you disagree with this assumption it is fine, and the US market being big enough is a big point for your view. But then don't come in here arguing the viability of a game in Germany, but actually argue the assumption we made to begin with. I wouldn't say we are comparing apples and oranges, hence why I think that we shouldn't agree to disagree, but we are arguing different things, essentially.
^^^^ Squig, first of all, you don't tell me what I can come in here and do. Who died and made you boss of this thread? Second, I responded to YOUR thoughts on the viability of a real game here in Germany. So, you can talk about that, but I can't because I don't agree with you?? Is that it?? No worries. I'm unsubbing. Enjoy your conversation. I really had no idea the opposite view wasn't welcomed.
Dude, it takes two to dance tango. I didn't want to tell you what to do and what not, but I just had the idea that your views was based on different assumptions, and a different goal, so we should have discussed that, and not the viability of a game, since that was only one aspect of the whole thing. And it seems like I wasn't the only one who sees it that way. I like discussing with you, and in general you are better informed than me in a number of topics, I just thought you were off at this one, and called you on it. You do that all the time, without any ill will. If you had the feeling I was unfair in what I wrote I sincerely apologize. And I would like to see you stay in here and keep discussing with 'us'.
I'm pretty sure the NFL could get one of the big free-tv broadcaster to show and promote an exhibition game if its shown at a reasonable time for Germany (20:45 German time or something like that) and as something special. I would guess that f.e. RTL and Sat 1 would welcome the chance to strengthen their sports profile. Now showing league games regularly is a whole different situation. I can't believe that they would do that not with the time difference between the US and Germany. The Superbowl numbers are measly, no way you get anything near a reasonable numbers of viewers for regular games to make it profitable for the big tv stations. DSF (or Sport 1 as they are called now) may be a possible partner, but they could have been one for the NFL Europa but didn't show much. Which is rather surprising looking at the quality of most of their programme (*urgs*).
sure they show it .. but they wouldn't pay big money for it .. iirc the NFL was looking for a guaranteed 20mio $ (ticket+tv money) considering that ticket prices in germany are traditionally not that high most of that would have to be TV money and i don't see RTL or Sat 1 paying 12mio $ or more to show a football game
is the superbowl the only nfl game shown live on German TV ? was there weekly coverage of live games at any point in the past ?
The Conference Championships are also shown. NFL is also shown on pay-per-view - but you have to keep in mind that ppv is nowhere near in common in Germany as it is in the US or UK. Not even close. There are no weekly games on the regular channels - I don't think there ever was, but it is possible that I'm wrong and there could have been weekly games on DSF at one point in the past (itself a niche channel, but free to air).
what do you mean by pay-per-view ? do mean they are shown on normal subscription channels like sky (where you pay a monthly subscription), or do you mean actual pay per view (where you pay for each game individually) ?