Boca Juniors, The Ranked Best Club of All Time?

His theories seem valid but I wonder if there is a biased towards the South American teams. There seems to be an over abundance of Argentine and Brazilian teams listed.

Just a couple of possibilities - Since the decline in play in SA is so distinctive from the top leagues (Brazil and Argentina) to the bottom is it more likely that they will win their confederation trophies? Also aren't there a greater amount of trophies to be won in those leagues? I remember somewhere that the Brazilian leagues have a large amount of small competitions. Someone please chime in who knows more about this.

 

He should rework some formulas, especially his South American-bias formula.

 

Argentine and Brazilian teams are not any more likely to win the continental cup than Italian and Spanish teams are likely to win theirs. Also there aren't more championships and Cups in Argentina than there are in England.
It is fairly easy to spot where the South American bias comes into play, it is that he uses the Intercontinental Cup and WCC to determine the value of the Champions League and Copa Libertadores. South American teams have done better than European teams in these competitions, thus giving South American continental championships more weight. The competitive value of the Intercontinental Championships (especially since the 1970's) and WCC are dubious, thus providing the main flaw in this analysis, which otherwise is pretty good. It makes me sad to point this out since I'm pretty happy with the results.

 

Where's Wildman?

This is exactly his sort of thing. Its "facts" you know.
What a useless study. Anyone who posits that Independiente is a better club historically than Milan has either been smoking some phenomenal weed, or wouldn't know regression from a rock.

P.S. Doesn't the Argentinian league have two championships?

 

i think the rank is based on how much you win etc. but it is not fair because man utd is better than a lot of the other teams. and so are the other teams.

 

Re: Where's Wildman?

They aren't, but they're pretty damn close. Independiente are South America's second most successful team of all time behind Penarol, and were the best team in the world from the mid 60's to the rise of Cruyff's Ajax. And, if I recall correctly, hold the all-time record for Copas Libertadores, which is nothing to sneeze at. Why so dismissive of one of the game's all-time great clubs?

 

you're right my friend, "El Rojo" (Independiente) has won 7 Copa Libertadores, 3 of them in a row (72,73,74)

edit: make that 4, I forgot 75

 

Re: Re: Where's Wildman?

Not dismissive. But to suggest they're better than Milan is,well.......silly. Of course, according to this, you get lots of bonus points for being South American team. That's not to say that's necessarily bad, just runs contrary to my view

And for all that I dislike some things about Real (although hardly all), its REALLY hard to argue that they're not the best club of all time.
Sorry Mario

 

Re: Where's Wildman?

Like most South American leagues there are two phases to the championship, before the winners of each phase face off for the championship, if you read the whole study, you will see that that he sets it up pretty nicely, so that the number of championships in each federation is evened out.
This study is probably most useful in comparing European teams against each other historically and South American teams against each other historically, it runs up against the problems that would face anyone try to objectively compare SA and UEFA clubs historically, and that is that there are few results that test true quality between the two continents' clubs. I'd say that the Intercontinental Cups up through the '70's was competitive, but one match per year is not enough to give us a strong sample, and the fact that it has become more of an exhibition than a competitive match in recent years further devalues it as a source of objective information. Outside of that, I'm pretty impressed with the formulas that were put together.
I think some of the discounts on Real are valid, because during their period of European domination in the 1950's, they did not do well against South American competition, and according to most accounts those were actually competitive matches that both sides took seriously. Does that mean that they are not the best in World history, probably not, but then again they are also probably slightly over-rated by Euro-philes such as yourself.

 

Re: Re: Where's Wildman?

Fair enough. I was just asking.

Can't argue with that logic. Especially since in recent years UEFA's teams have treated the Intercontinental Cup as an unwanted hindrance, whereas Boca's fans had a giant parade when they won, I believe.

I personally think that the line between Madrid and Milan is closer than most people, and I do think that dominating the European Cup in its nascent stages during the 50s and 60s is less of an accomplishment than winning it today. (Half the teams werefrom inferior leagues, for instance, and there were fewer games to win.) Still, not to give Madrid the nod as the best in the world is an exercise in "creative accounting", to use a modern term.

For me, being a Europhile is inevitable. I grew up watching European soccer, and I believe it to be the best. I've only seen a bit of grainy footage of Garrhincha, whereas I used to get lots of coverage of Van Basten growing up. It may well have been the opposite for you. I think its impossible to avoid any bias, especially on a topic like which confederation's club sides are better.

 

Me? Oh I probably have a slight bias in favor of SA teams, but I spent more than a few years youth in Spain, where I got a lot of exposure to Euro sides, and also in Australia and the US where I got little exposure to any of the greats.

To me it's fairly obvious that right now winning the Copa Libertadores has less power ranking value than winning the champions league, but it is impossible to measure by how much, also the discount has changed over time, and (in my opinion) in the past did not exist. A good statistical analysis would account for shifts in the strengths of leagues and confederations over time, with some kind of pooling tool, which I don't think that I saw, but you still have the trouble of measure the difference in strength now.

 

Re: Re: Re: Where's Wildman?

you're right! we celebrate a lot! I had a lot of fun vs madrid!

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where's Wildman?

Ain't nothin' wrong with that. (Like cornbread, you know.) But it shows that its a game that is far more important to Conmebol than to UEFA. I don't think that ManUtd fans talk about their International Cup win all that often

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where's Wildman?

Hispanics celebrate everything, every goal, every win.

Now in the EPL you may see a team just slapping hands and *#*#*#*#.

 

Winning the CL was 10 times better than winning then ICC. It's a nice bonus though.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where's Wildman?

Ah yes, how can anyone forget the stately procession of Milan's players after they won the CL. "Good show old chap", pat on the back.

 

Using formulas like these to determine these kinds of rankings can seem like an objective approach, but in reality, the process is riddled with subjectivity since giving "weights" to formulas (such as weighting different cup championships based on difficulty) is obviously a subjective activity. The one who determines the weights is, by default, engaging in subjective decisions which then introduce possible biases into the formulas.

 

These rankings are definitely biased towards South American clubs.

 

But all weights are based on objective results. The rating of difficulty is based on objective results. Each cup's difficulty is based on the champion's results in wider competition as well everything comes down from results, there is no willy-nilly choosing of weights. The problem lies in the validity of the base competitions, the Intercontinental Cups and WCC's from which the weights flow.
He is using the most objective information out there, the problem is not subjectivity at all in this case.