The fallacy of GringoTex's statement is that any response by Israel would be deemed disproportionate in some quarters.
The ongoing rocket attacks on Israel's southern regions were a clear indication that Hamas tried to provoke an Israeli strike (shamefully putting up with a high number of casualties in order to play the victim role and get the sympathies of the Arab street) for some obvious reasons. However, the Israelis apparently weren't that unhappy with the escalation either ... as they suddenly get the chance to distroy Hamas' complete infrastructure with a well-prepared attack, nearby the current Israeli government gets a good opportunity to do something for its reputation concerning the upcoming elections (Livni & Barak have to fear Netanjahu).
There's reports that even financial & material aid from the EU for the suffering population in Gaza had been misused for buying weapons. Hamas got enough chances to rencounce violence & their silly ideology ... however, there's no more illusions in the meanwhile about the fact that they won't accept any peace process! I think that's also the main reason why Israel decided to massively fight them now (putting up with some risks)... Unfortunately, Arafat's corrupt Fatah was one of the main reasons for the rise of Hamas (together with Israel's silly politcs under Sharon), so Abbas has huge problems to cope with the current circumstances.
Btw: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122820055314434.html Nasrallah is the right person to complain about terrorism...
Tzipi Livni, Israel Foreign Minister, speaking on FoxNews, left open option for ground attack on Gaza... she's a tough lady... as the designated Acting Prime Minister of Israel she's solid on eliminating Hamas... finally... good... I like how this is evolving.. Tzipi Livni also knows that once Dr. Rice leaves her US support dries up... Hillary the C hasn't visited Gaza in a decade so she'll be clueless as Secretary of State... expect Livni to act alone and with a firm hand in Gaza...
The situation in Pakistan with (Taliban-Al Qaeda/Nukes-unstable gov't/Kashmir-War with India) makes Isr/Pal look like the small potatoes of he said/she said divorce court. I hope Obama doesn't get sucked into spending too much time on this eternal and eternally useless conflict and actually prioritizes Pakistan/Iraq/Iran/Russia and other places where the politically energy and capital he spends may actually yield a return.
Iraq is simple. We need to leave now. Iran isn't that hard either. Sit down with them face to face and make them an offer that would be hard to refuse. They let Russia handle enrichment for them for the next 5 years and give complete and unlimited access to all there nuke tech that they have in turn we give them a trade agreement, sign a security agreement, and open relations to include opening embassies again. Russia is a horse of another color though. We need to be very wary of comrade Putin and observe what he does closely. As for Pakistan. They are mess waiting to explode. The Govt. has problems with the extremists, they are in a very difficult position in the North, and now with India and Kashmir flaring up they find themselves boxed in with not many good options ahead of them.
Sure, except when talking Iran - Israel always comes up (whether we like it or not). Moreover, Iran talks will include talks about Hamas as well, as the tow are inseparable in the current conflict.
This is not a war. Both sides are kids in a sandbox and the West is protecting both from defeat. Israel did not kill 300 people to assure its existence. It's existence is guaranteed by the U.S. It's a game, and the only vulnerable ones are the civilians.
Obama just needs to appoint a commission of big names like Holbrooke, Powell, maybe Bill Clinton himself. Something needs to be seen to be taking place, but no personal investment of the U.S. President because it's useless. Mollify the parties and move on until the next intifada or invasion of Lebanon or whatever. Say the right things and kick the can down the road. I'm sure Clinton privately regrets all the time he wasted on Isr/Pal only to have the discussions go nowhere and become a debacle. Think of all the places where people are dying violently that a President's clout could help, if not solve entirely--Zimbabwe, Darfur, etc. Also of the broken relationship with Russia that could at least be put on a footing where we aren't geared up for another arms race that we can't possibly afford while dealing with Islamic terrorism. Putin may be a thug and a dictator, but we can't afford to have him as an enemy right now. The religious symbolism of conflict in the Holy Land, political power of AIPAC in the U.S. and proxy relationship of Iran-Hezbollah-Hamas means we have to put on a song and dance diplomatically to look like we care, but at the end of the day it's become a de facto steam valve release of the Middle East that's almost trite in its cyclical unfolding (Pal provoke, Isr overreaction), there's not much the U.S. can do in this thing anyway and personal investment by the President in it is a bad idea.
I read a piece of advice for the incoming administration that I wish I could attribute: don't want peace in Palestine more than the Israelis and Palestinians.
That I think is ultimately the issue. Each US president since LBJ has wanted to solve the crisis. It just will not happen anytime soon. This is like a bad soap opera with the same characters and story lines. I am sure that every US newspaper has a macro for the headline "Mideast in Crisis". I frankly simply do not care any more. Walk away for a while. That means everyone -- the US, the EU, Russia, even the other countries in the region. The Palestinians need to work out their internal governance issues while the Israelis need to discover that the settlements are not worth the trouble. Maybe, without outside pressure, the parties will eventually come to an agreement. Right now, this is nothing but a sideshow to Great Power games and the self serving smugness of the Western intelligencia
Then you have to think what would make Hamas so appealing to win the popular vote and support of the people? when things werent being done and israel continues to break international law, then the people suffering and living in refugee camps will eventually turn to more desperate politics. Nicephoras, there is a fundamental problem that you are not understanding. Even if there is a cease-fire, there are still palestinian civilians suffering in refugee camps that is in violation of the UN, and a group of people that are continually suffering from the israeli government. Until you have lived with a Palestinian family you will not understand this. So to you a cease-fire might seem jolly and grand, but one group of people are still suffering from funding being held by the israeli govt, living in refugee camps that UN mandates to allows them to return to their homes, humiliating checkpoints, etc.
Then let Jordan and Egypt and Lebanon and Syria accept those refugees that UNIFIL have kept for decades. It was not Israel in 48 who asked those people to leave but rather those Aran nations who told them to go so they can be cleared for a way to anhilate the enemy. I know it's off this topic, but what about 500,000 Jewish refugees fleeing from Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, Morocco, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc when they were actually told to leave? How come that topic is never brought up? Those people lived in those places for thousands of years. Arab nations created the refugee issue in '48, let them deal with it. All Israel ever wanted was a little piece of land and some peace for once, but that was way too much to expect.
Do you really believe that? Also, do you really think that Israelis and many Palestinians don't want peace, finally? How many deals, treaties, accords, etc - all is a farce?
Why should Israel have to worry about its existence? Ot why does it have to do anything to assure it - something is not right with this picture that a country in the 21st century has to be concerned about its survival.
What a bullshit. Don't agree. IMO, the Palestine/Israel conflict is on the same level at least and its solution demands top priority! Unfortunately, nobody knows what's going to happen when the Israeli bombardement has finished (is there any plan so far?)... as the situation in Gaza will be almost hopeless. Like Hamas, Israel also has to lose a lot if there'll be many civilian casualties, since it may put its reputation at stake and might face riots in the Westbank that could lead to another Intifada (in this case, the peace process will be definitely dead for a long time ... what would be a disaster). Russia needs the EU and fears Islamic terrorism as well ... so I don't think there will be any conflict as long as the USA don't make the same mistakes like in Georgia. What has been the case in many military conflicts since the beginning of the 20th century (with the invention of "modern weapons").
I fear that will be just a dream... Yes, unfortunately many people in those refugee camps of Gaza are suffering; but do you really think that their situation will improve (like that of the Palestinians in the Westbank & in Israel) as long as Hamas (which won't accept any peace with Israel and is seen as a terrorist organization even by the EU) is on power? It's a shame that the Palestinian population in Gaza is a hostage of its own radicals... When will the last Palestinian finally check that violence won't serve the Palestinian cause? There's absolutely no alternative to peace with Israel, so they should stop supporting a party which isn't accepted by the West & will never reach its goal (of destroying Israel) ... and better trust a wise & realistic person like Abbas (instead of calling him a traitor)! Have a nice day.
What the Palestinians need is a Michael Collins. Of course, while Collins legacy is a free and democratic Republic of Ireland, we all know what happened to him.
When will the Israelis in turn realise that violence isn't the answer? I'm sorry but I just can't believe that people are still happily siding with Israel over all of this. You do all realise who is the complete and utter underdog in this conflict I hope? As a christmas wish I would like you all to read If this is a Man by Primo Levi to gain an understanding into what people are capable of if their situation is hopeless. If even a holocaust survivor has managed to gain this insight into the human mind, then surely you in your comfy suburbs sat behind your computer might give it a try as well. As sorry as I feel for a people that is under constant threat of terrorist attacks, the Israeli situation is not hopeless. They can send their sick children to hospital and their clever children to a university abroad. They can plan a future for themselves and their offspring. What hope in hell do Palestinians iin the Gaza strip have? It is a criminal thing that we in the west let happpen to those people.
What is the answer then? When for seven days straight Israel deos nothing against Kassams, Hamas does not stop. I a, asking what is the answer - sit do nothig, let people live in bomb shelters, have schools in bomb shelters, what? And just because Israel has managed in its 60 year history to overcome every enemy, every issue within and out and build a great nation that has done as much as many other civilized nations over centuries, they must now put up with state of war on a daily basis? It's almost now a crticism of how Israel succceeds while those around them fail instead of praise. Just don't say say how sorry you feel for those that are under constant attacks because ot is the job of their government to prevent it from being a constant attacks and that is what Israel is doing. What is still unbelievable is how people still find ways, time after time to blame Israel for doing what every other nation would when faced similar situations.
Strawman argument. No-one is telling Israel to do nothing. People are telling Israel not to kill innocent people. Britain suffered frequent mortar attacks as well as a bombing campaign during the Irish troubles. NO F-16's were sent to deal with the problem. Instead you had a police and intelligence system thrown into effect, designed to prevent attacks and arrest perpetrators. Israel has done the following in the past couple of days: - Bombed a university. - Bombed police stations and killed the chief of police, who was a former Fatah official who stayed on under Hamas. - Attacked civil government buildings like the Ministry of the Interior. - Bombed a mosque. (There are reports that this was planned way in advance, perhaps six months of planning, which means that it was planned during the ceasefire. So let's not hear about how Hamas only wants ceasefires to re-arm and re-equip for further conflict). And here you are defending their actions. Lets flip the script for a second, and imagine that in the past few days, Hamas bombed a Yeshivah, killed the Israeli chief of Police, attacked Israeli Ministry buildings and bombed a synagogue because Israel killed one of it's members (which happens frequently). NO-ONE here who is making comments like "Oh, it's to be expected, don't poke a sleeping bear", or "Israel has a right to defend itself" would be singing the same tune. You would have an announcement within hours from the US, Israel and Fatah condemning such barbaric terrorism. We are all complicit in these massacres because we remain silent when they happen. My government has failed to speak out uncategorically against these actions - I feel like i killed someone today.