Nations League A, Camp 2, Canada/Cuba, Nov. 15/19

good luck trying to push your “story-arc” that Berhalter is “ballsy” or has cohones to try to pursue a style even in the face of “leadership-less” gap in the talent pool. It’s f***ing stupid to pursue a style of play that doesn’t fit our players, just like telling the Washington Generals to play attractively will never turn them into the Globetrotter. We’re seeing that up and down our national teams.

I’ll make it simple for you: when our players are all better than MLS and starting for UCL knockout teams, we will not have to try to play an attractive attacking style vs most teams; we will naturally play an attacking style because our players will be good enough to do that.

 

you think we should keep the system?!!!!

 

No. But what I think is irrelevant. Nothing is changing, we all know that.

At this point, I'm more a fan of the NT than a fan of getting things my way.

When Klinsmann left Donovan out, I hated it, but I kept rooting for the USA. When Arena (whom I called a dinosaur) got named as a coach in place of JK, I hated it, but I kept rooting for the USA. When they took forever to get a coach, I hated it, but kept rooting. I'm not going to stop rooting for the team only because they're not doing things the way I'd prefer. I'm not a child throwing a tantrum.

 

you often start building straw men for some reason.

wanting to ditch the system is neither not rooting for the team nor throwing a tantrum. It’s pointing out what we need to do to maximize our odds of qualifying and winning WC games.

Let’s see how pragmatic Berhalter is now as we get closer to the hex. Even arena indicated that his World Cup squad wasn’t going to be the Prove-MLS-is-just-as-good squad as it was in the Hex.

 

Some humility is needed. If you part from the assumption that those who disagree with you do so because they are following some sinister agenda, and that they're not going to learn from their mistakes, then you're not being realistic.

I expect Berhalter to learn from his mistakes and indeed be practical about things when he must. As I noted, Klinsmann during his first months also tried to have us play out of the back, with more possession and control.

It's a learning curve. And something here people avoid mentioning is how in some of the recent games, the worst players were actually the ones NOT from MLS. That's not a coincidence: the coaching staff needs to learn about the guys coming from Europe, too.

The narrative that it's only the MLSers who are the problem is a lie, though. Morris, Arriola, Long, Cannon, have been at times the best players on the team. Sargent, Pulisic, Boyd, Antonee, Ream have been at times the worst.

I like fairness, and it offends my sense of fairness when people use two different standards to evaluate players.

 

who is spinning the narrative that only MLSers suck? I’ve just written that Morris and Cannon are totally different from Lovitz/Trapp/Bradley.

I just wrote that the leash should be same for similar players.

 

I do not expect Berhalter to 'learn' from his mistakes. He has already doubled down on them for crap's sake. And I secretly do not want him to win a game because it will accelerate the change that's needed when you need to purge a guy who can't win half his games in his MLS career and has already taken the USMNT to a new low.

 

I agree to an extent. I have always admired MB for his work rate and going abroad to improve his play. And I do think that he loves the US. However, that being said, IMO he was never an outstanding player. He had a good engine, thus MB90. We only think he was outstanding and an archetype because we really have had nothing to compare him with for years. Now that he has lost some of his physicality, his many flaws are showing. During his entire playing life with the men's team he has had someone to pick up the slack. That is getting more and more evident as he ages.

 

Some people would say you cant pass out of the back from the lcb position unless you have a left footed cb, e.g., Ream. Brooks is left footed but his appearances are spotty. We can't count on him. That's why having Ream in play is fine by me. Remember Long trying to pass out of the back vs. Mexico when the Mexicans knew he didn't have a left? Maybe you missed that. Berhalter did.

 

It just popped up in my mind that I've been reading all these posts and don't actually know what your "way" is. I think it would be Bielsa as manager? Otherwise I don't know.

My own "way" would be to get some stable characters on the pitch with the stars and let them invent victories. When they hit a wall (when the victories dont come) we look for changes at the margin and work for that moment when we realize we have created a team that plays like a team. If I see a guy like McKennie who doesn't seem to have a position and plays aimlessly I would cut him with no hesitation and find somebody else. If a guy like Ream who has a hard time keeping up with EPL level players actually produces in an area we need like passing out of the back with his left foot, I would have him there to do that so we could exhaust every possibility of playing with every skill on the pitch. If I had the option of a defend only rb like Cannon or a maybe defend and great in offense player like Lima, I would go with Lima, at least until he showed, like Robinson, that he can't defend, at which point maybe I would move to Tommy Thompson, or
Dest. I could move to each position on the pitch here but I think it would be too long an exercise. My point is that I don't see the Stewart/Egg Manhattan project producing anything but a dud.

Your turn.

 

I mean we can say that but look at someone like Roldan who has done nothing but still getting minutes and call-ups. Just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Literally EVERY ONE of those scrubs is still getting USMNT call ups.... four of the five are in the current camp, and the fifth would be there if he wasn't playing in MLS Cup this weekend.

 

Is that the youth task force on top?

 

Can't disagree with any of that...

I would add, regarding Findley and Bornstein:
-Findley was a last minute like-for-like replacement for Charlie Davies (minus the TALENT) after CD9's horrific injury... and only ever had 11 national team caps, that's less than Daniel Lovitz' 12, and he has all his caps in the Berhalter era, having made his debut in January. I don't think Findley was ever called in again after the 2010 World Cup.
-Bornstein was bad but still arguably our best left back (in hindsight, maybe Beasley should have been moved back there earlier). The only other legitimate left back option at the time was Bocanegra. As soon as we had another candidate emerge, Tim Ream was handed the left back position at the 2011 Gold Cup... and gave up a boneheaded penalty that led to the first loss in the group stage.
Some serious injuries right around that time (Davies, Onyewu, Jones, Holden, even Dempsey at Fulham had a serious scare with his knee ligaments), plus Clark starting over Edu, and Torres over Feilhaber, is what hurt the US at WC2010.

 

The USSF had a simple choice: either give up their control over their little lucrative fiefdoms, in the pursuit of genuine excellence for our national programs, or justify perpetual mediocrity in the national programs in their pursuit of control over their little lucrative fiefdoms.
Anyone who has had experience with what "Chicago" implies, either in the actual city or in terms of a vision for the future, knows exactly what the choice was, is, and always will be.

 

I’m going to keep rooting for the team too...

That point should be self-evident. I didn’t give up on the team after Couva so I’m too much of a sucker to give up on them now.

Hell, I HOPE to be proven wrong. I hope come 2022, Berhalter is exalted as the next Pep Guardiola, and we make it to the QF for the first time since 2002.

But, I am allowed to have my doubts.

 

Look you've clearly been a soccer fan for awhile. You should know by now that EVERY coach we've had has had their favorites who didn't belong but still made it into camp and the occasional start that frustrated us.

Klinsman called in Green over Donovan, Orozco over a bunch of others who actually could play CB
Bradley had Findley over any forward who could score
Arena had Albright and he played Armas instead of Obrien.

In this case we have Greg calling in Lovitz over Robinson. Both have shown to be bad options at this point. Robinson could clearly benefit from some time with the Olympic squad and he's getting that with their November camp. I'm cool with that. Could some other LB be better than Lovitz? Maybe but at this point the difference would be minimal and as others have pointed out those differences may be below nil with Greg's system.

The problem is we don't have enough good LBs and we have a coach with a crap system. I don't think it's worth getting bent out of shape over which bad option the coach calls in to play back up LB especially when the option most of us would rather see is actually getting called up to the level he's currently playing at ---U-23.

 

I can understand individual bad decisions but Berhalter's are structural (he treats MLS players differently than others) and highly damaging. I also think that Klinsmann had an irrational structural dislike of the Championship.

No one is asking for Shaq Moore over Cannon because Cannon is playing well both for country and club and RB isn't a position of dire need. It's just not the same with Lovitz. This forum had the same debate over Morales early in the year (and it's amusing that the people who said pretty much exactly what you are saying now about Robinson said the same thing about Morales. Furthermore, they smugly state that after finally doing what should have been done from the get-go, it's proof that Gregg is open-minded. SMH)

 

If the assumption is that Adams will play the 6 when(!) he returns from injury, should we replace him now with someone as similar to him as possible so that the adjustment period when he returns will be as small as possible?

If so, who's the right person to take his place? I know which players are almost diametrically opposed to him.

 

I was likely one of those who was less than enthusiastic about Morales. I said I would've called him in but wasn't overly excited about what he could add to the team. He'd never shown much in call ups prior and if we're honest he was just ok in this latest call-up. I liked his energy and rate him above Roldan maybe but the sample size is small. He didn't look as good in attack as Lletget and I think we can all agree Lletget is someone we'd like to consider a bench player.

A lot of that debate centered around whether Morales could be a better 6 than Bradley and I don't think there's a lot of evidence one way or the other on that still. Neither are athletic enough to man the position and neither are good enough.

So in a way, yes it's a similar discussion. We don't have good options to play the 8 alongside McKennie. Morales is not a good option either. Greg should've called him in earlier nevertheless. He didn't call him in after an injury and is calling him in now. We have much bigger things to be annoyed at Greg over than his Gold Cup decisions.

Personally I think Lletget is still the better option at the 8 than Morales but I hope to be proved wrong. Maybe the best option of all is to play Lletget as a true #10 and put Morales and McKennie behind him as dual 6/8s which would be a better role for Roldan as well.

 

we can agree to disagree but Morales is plenty athletic to man the six. Comparing him athletically to today's Bradley is laughable IMO.

there is no way that Lletget or Bradley could start for Fortuna in the midfield. I don't think its even close. We'll see where Bradley ends up next year (assuming he doesn't win the Cup) as he's available on a free. I'd be shocked if he ended up with a major league team.

 

Back to the main point (Berhalter treating MLS players with a different standard than others), the concept that we would treat a B1 regular far worse than an average MLS player is beyond stupid. He wasn't even named as part of the 40 man roster for the Gold Cup so that means that Berhalter didn't even want to look at him. Maybe a case could be made for the Ledesma/Llanez of the world who are (hopefully) on the precipice of getting time for a major league team, but there's just no rationale that Morales didn't even deserve a look.

 

I just watched Pulisic play this morning. Scored again, making him the third American to score in 3 games in a row, Behind Roy Wegerle (played for USA) and JoeMax Moore. He was great and one of the best on the field. If he is very smart, he will not listen to a word GB says in the next NAT game. There is NOTHING of value GB could tell him and he certainly know what he's doing. If GB didnt surround him with stiffs, he would shine for the NATS too

 

Honestly, the most like for like player is Darlington Nagbe...