Nations League A, Camp 2, Canada/Cuba, Nov. 15/19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Dander, Oct 16, 2019.

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  1. wixson7

    wixson7 Member+

    May 12, 2009
    boulder
    Ouch.....
     
  2. manfromgallifrey91

    Swansea City
    United States
    Jul 24, 2015
    Wyoming, USA
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #577 manfromgallifrey91, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    The reason you still see complaints about those, is that the USSF wasted a year. Now we have a notoriously slow to recognize issues and make changes, Earnie Stewart, and now a coach who has proven he is way too slow to make changes not only to rosters but in game. So its a frustration that there was over a year lost, and most of those players who showed well during that time are just now being integrated. While players who have repeatedly shown their not up to snuff get called in.

    Trapp, Lovitz, Roldan, Bradley, Zardes, and Baird are not up to it and I think youd agree on that. Thats nearly 1/3 of your roster thats useless to bring on or start. You simply cant have that at this level. You keep calling in different players to replace them until you find someone better, OR see that everyone is worse. You dont just say eh, they probably wont be better so lets stick with hot garbage because they know the "system". Morales is a much needed CM based on the others, and its good to see him being brought back in.

    Fast forwarding to how you beat Canada. Its largely going to be a replay from the first match. If Bradley and Roldan are your starters (which at least 1 will be barring injury) Canada is going to press them into turnovers, and look to spark counters. With Kaye coming back in its going to really expose the back line to some fast counters. Davies and David will have to be marked much better.

    The good news is Canada's defense is susceptible to just about all forms of attack if we can manage a few moments of individual brilliance. I dont see the patterns working yet, but there is probably going to be a dip because they are not at home. The game could have easily been 5-2 last time, and I think theyll be similar openings for both teams, who converts the most will be the winner.
     
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  3. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Ya know, as much as I take issue with a lot of roster choices, I do think an in-form Pulisic, Brooks and Dest added to the defense, Morales adding some bite in midfield, and playing at home is likely enough to get us past Canada. Still ridiculous dead weight on the roster and the system is poor, but as much as Berhalter wants to make it about coaching and the system and all that, it is still a player's game in the end. And we're looking at having up to three clear upgrades on the field and I think it's safe to say Pulisic had one of his poorer games for the US last time and is likely to be a bigger factor this time around. And whatever else happens, I'm always interested in seeing us win and I think we will.
     
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  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    This is fair.

    I do think we have to look at why our best players consistently underperform their club and prior USMNT levels under Berhalter. Is he putting Pulisic in the best position to succeed? I think we know the answer to that and I'd argue that Berhalter is putting Michael Bradley in the best position for Bradley to be successful. I guess Coach deserves kudos as Bradley is never the worst person on the field. However, since we've built a series of cascading consequences (including putting our high ceiling players in bad situations) around having Michael patrol the most important part of the field, we need him to be excellent not "not shitty" and he's failed that.

    It's directly opposite to being-greater-than-the-sum-of-our-parts.
     
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  5. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I agree that one of the most damning things about Berhalter's system is how poorly our players fit it. Our guys look far better playing at their clubs than they do for the US. And many of them face tougher competition in club soccer, yet still look worse playing for the US against lesser competition. If a coach is actively making his players less effective, that's about as bad as you can get in my estimation.
     
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  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #581 DHC1, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    Here's the irony: I fully expect us to trounce Canada (3-0 or so, where we win the home-and-home series) but am cringing at the thought of @gogorath, @NietzscheIsDead et al saying that it's proof that Berhalter's style, system and roster selection are good. Don't get me wrong, i'm fully expecting that we win and would never root against the USMNT....

    I've noticed that there has been an intentional lowering of expectations now that Berhalter has been named coach: "All that matters is qualification and everything else is gravy" BS - we should expect to have a real shot at winning CONCACAF going into the last match or so and have a good shot at advancing at the WC, if we avoid a group of death.

    More to the point: we should convincingly win vs. Canada at home and blow out Cuba. That's not a sign of success but a minimum expectation.
     
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  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    their two most important attackers - they are speedy as well so we need to have a plan to counter-act.

    fair enough on Cuba.
     
  8. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Good insight. Thanks for the post.

    I'm probably wrong, but I think that Roldan is getting minutes right now because he is an intelligent player and has grasped his role in the Berhalter Way, which is an academic system that many of these guys are probably not used to and still taking time and experience to learn. Personally, I have not seen Roldan as a USMNT-level player (what do I know), but he's one of the guys who have had some consistency in production, and honestly has surprised me. His next step is to become assertive and to attack with more urgency...and to also be willing to crack the ball on frame from around the 18, where he is usually positioned when the team settles into the final third.

    Morales has shown that he wants to be with this group. He plays with heart and is focused. I don't know what strength that he adds to the players on the field other than that he is committed to do the hard/aggressive stuff. For me, that's enough to use him in a role to set the tone. The team really needs guys other than McKennie to deliver the hard fouls and send physical messages. McKennie's role should be more integral to the attacking and circulation components.
     
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  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i watched him on the hook for two goals in two games to dortmund last year.

    they lost this game 0-3, i mean, do you check the scoreline before you post stuff???



    goal 2 the shot goes straight in the net but a la yedlin he was going to be burned on the back door if it didn't.
     
  10. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I'll ask again, why do you give a pass to Long after losing 2-0 and 3-0 for the usmnt recently?
     
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  11. btlove

    btlove Member

    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    Austin Texas
    1. You absolutely do look down on people that are upset with the state of the program and grandstand. Don’t be coy. 90% of your posts are “man it’s so stressful being so much more reasonable than everyone else!”

    2. GGG picked Morales! Woo! He has a failing grade with these rosters, him fixing one problem improves his grade, but it’s still awful, and not worth praising. You think he should get credit for changes he has made. I think he deserves criticism for changes he hasn’t made.

    3. “I don’t get concerned over backup LBs or 4th DM” then you would be a terrible coach. Don’t know why you only concern yourself with 11 players and think you can just pick whatever for the rest. Don’t understand this attitude. At any given moment half of our 11 is injured
     
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  12. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Worth noting that while they are all still being called in, and largely shouldn't be, all four mentioned have moved at least a rung down the depth chart due to additions from outside the group -- Boyd, Dest, Yeuill, Sargent, respectively.

    Maybe he doesn't like to cut them completely loose, but they have lost playing time.
     
  13. btlove

    btlove Member

    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    Austin Texas
    The morales thing is just too funny to me.

    Sure GGG has just lost to Canada, got beat by Mexico twice, has implemented a system that doesn’t work, has called in players that don’t work, has lost to/looked weak against teams that are inferior.

    But GGG called in Morales and y’all still act ungrateful? How did this move not generate unending praise and admiration? How can people still be upset now that a coach that makes a thousand mistakes has managed to fix one?
     
  14. swedust

    swedust Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    Will we attempt to fight 2 v 4 in central midfield again?

    Will Pulisic arbitrarily dribble numbers-down when a pass is on half the time?

    Will the player in the point-of-the-spear role wander into no-man's-land between the lines, neither fully dropping nor hold opposing CBs accountable?

    Will our keeper and backline be on the same page when the attack switches fields on us?

    Tune in for the next episode of GGGeneral Hospital!
     
  15. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    You have to wonder if and when those things are going to stop.
     
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    acting like roldan belongs on the field is laughable. often playing in an advanced position like forward or AM, he has like 0G 0A in more than a dozen caps. and unlike holmes, morales, mckennie, i cannot remember some great, tenacious defensive play.

    everyone on this team cannot be the hustle players who leave it to someone else to score the goals and make the tackles. i find the soccer IQ thing overrated. plenty of legbreakers are fairly bright about soccer, they position well, they take good lines, they just are also willing to get stuck in about it. i see this as a plus and not a minus. jogging in front of your man doesn't win us anything.

    the team will get better when we understand you first look for the primary aspect of the position, and then you use secondary interesting aspects as a tiebreaker instead of the primary metric. that would get you dolo types instead of robinson types. backs, 6, 10. now, perhaps it should be holmes instead of morales, because i have seen one complete a pass and not the other. but that's emphasizing defense first -- ridding us of yueill, bradley, trapp, etc. -- and then tiebreaking in favor of the best passer from the ones who could already defend.****

    the US instead seems hell bent on the "counter intuitive" where almost everyone is picked for skills against their position, and not for playing their position. and then we wonder where the assists are from midfield, or where the defending is at 6 and back. well, you never made that the first test.

    ****you don't have to give up on trying to be more skillful. it's just at some positions cuteness rarely tangibly pays off, while the absence of the core requirements gets repeatedly punished. for some reason -- perhaps MLS hate -- people inherently get this for bradley and trapp, but not for robinson ream dest brooks yedlin etc., all the other people shaky at their primary role but supposed to be slick with a ball. so what you need is, pick the ones who can do their job, and then elevate the most skillful of the excellent specialists.
     
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  17. btlove

    btlove Member

    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    Austin Texas
    Last cycle we missed the World Cup. Due to a combination of many things, incompetent fed, incompetent coaching, poor player selection.

    Fast forward, the fed is still incompetent. We have a new coach that seems to be the worst we’ve had in a long time, and the player selection is even worse.

    And yet when the fans get upset or demand change, they are called dramatic, called out for not praising small changes. Told to accept certain shortcomings, I don’t really understand it.

    This criticism, this anger, it’s not out of left field. In the past few years we had one of our programs biggest ever embarrassments. We have gotten worse since then, but we should be praising any positive change rather than criticizing the negative ones. I don’t but it, sorry
     
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  18. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I hope you aren't referring to me, as I've never said that, and particularly did not include any of them in my "adds" as I believe all of them (except maybe Ream?) was always in the plans from the start.

    I'd include Jozy and Adams in that group as well. He and Morris were hurt in January camp but were invited to watch.

    I think I've determined a big difference between myself and yourself (and many more folks). You're very focused on who has been cut or not called in.

    I'm more focused on new faces tried.

    I had seven: Boyd, Dest, Morales, Sargent, Holmes, Miles Robinson and Yeuill. (I won't count the cups of coffee for Pomykal and Aaronson.)

    It's not as many new players as I'd have brought in. Some of the players were brought in too slowly/late.

    But he has brought in roughly seven guys for evaluation above and beyond the pool at minimum, along with integrating a bunch of injured guys who were probably in it.

    Dest grabbed a starting role. Boyd was given one, lost it, but still is above Baird. Sargent may or may not still be below Jozy, but has beaten out Zardes. We'll see with Morales, but he played over Roldan last time. Yeuill is behind Bradley but ahead of Trapp.

    I see a ton of posts with "nothing ever changes." I don't think that's entirely true. And I think someone should get criticism for mistakes but credit for good moves. And some of these are good moves.

    And Morales, who, with this call-up, seems pretty certain he'd have been called in during October if healthy.

    And Miles Robinson, who was called in until hurt.

    And he did try out Holmes, but he's apparently behind Lleget (not Mihailovic). He would have been on the Gold Cup roster once Lleget got hurt, but he got hurt.

    Cannon was in January, but he actually lost his spot and then earned it back, for whatever that is worth.

    He's added 6 guys into his 20 man outfield rotation.

    Yes, there's a bunch of guys no one likes still there. But 6 of the 7 significant adds are actually getting time and playing.

    On the other hand, Corey Baird hasn't played since MARCH and hadn't made a roster until October, when he made it because Paul Arriola got hurt.

    Look, I think Berhalter should have brought more guys in, and should be developing more depth. I don't think there's a slew of undiscovered talent out there we're missing until the young guys break through.

    But mostly I'm just reacting to the fact that:

    1. People are acting like Baird, Trapp, Lovitz and Zardes are going to start this time around. I don't even think Baird makes a roster. I wouldn't be shocked to see Trapp not make a 23. If Jozy were healthy, Zardes probably wouldn't.

    It's not that this shouldn't change. But it's that there's disparate focus put on that instead of the fact that:

    2. There's a really good chance we start Dest and Morales as improvement on the two worst players from last Canada game. The two worst positions improved and not a peep! Much less focus than Corey Baird.

    When Tim Weah and Tyler Adams come back, we'll see further squeezing of players like Baird and Trapp.
     
  19. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    The Richards part I just found funny. You know Richards well enough to be very confident in your evaluation. But not well enough to know his name. But mostly a joke.

    The rest of it? You made a post calling Berhalter a moron for not calling in a European player into a pre-camp meant to keep MLS players in shape?

    Maybe he's not the moron? Maybe the dude who was so eager to call someone else dumb for something should read or think about something first?

    It's typical Big Soccer. It doesn't matter what's true as long as you are criticizing with arrogance!
     
  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    The biggest issue is if Michael Bradley plays vs. Canada. If he does, there's a much higher probability that his midfield partners as well as Pulisic and Brooks play poorly as they're asked to compensate for Michael instead of playing to their strengths.
     
  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Look down? No. Annoyed by? Certainly.

    Also, this is ironic given your history of posting. I'm pretty sure your first post to me was something along the lines of "I'm too smart for all of you." It was either you or bpet, so maybe you're clear here.

    No, I think he deserves both. This isn't that hard.

    I just think it speaks to something when people complain about player X not being called in -- to the point of calling Berhalter xenophobic in some respects, and then when the player is called in, the only response is to move onto the next player.

    I don't get concerned over our backup LB right now because we have bigger issues. It's not that those players don't matter; it's that there are a ton of other places where improvement would be more significant.

    Part of Berhalter's problem has been that he hasn't prioritized enough, or properly. He's tried to teach his system, and it's not working. Fixing the defense, and then the offense amongst the more important players is more important than finding a 4th string CDM to replace Wil Trapp. Especially when he's already identified a new 3rd string DM in Yueill to push him down the ladder.(And for the record, I don't think Yeuill is good enough, either.)

    Getting the team playing better will have a stronger impact than trying out .... Russell Canouse? Who else would we try at DM?
     
  22. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    First of all, to be fair, I think 95% of fans are fed up with everything. Those arguing against us are either "USNT support til I die, I will never criticize", or being paid by USSF.

    The big problem continues to be the consistent lowering of expectations. Sure, the superfans on BS eat it up like Halloween candy, but it's now being fed to them by the manager himself. We always knew it'd be a huge mountain to climb, and soooo difficult to get a result in Canada? Seriously?

    Because we didn't qualify for the WC, some want to use that as a measuring stick on where we're at. No. Missing the WC was the worst disaster we've ever had. Mexico nearly missed the '14 WC. Did their fanbase all of a sudden think "welp, hopefully we can come in 3rd or 4th next time, that's where we're at". Not a chance. Many disagree with me, but I think our overall talent at this point (not the "talent" Egg is using) is far superior to any team other than Mexico, and only slightly behind Mexico. The US should be challenging Mexico to win the Hex. That is the standard.

    But no. We are now likely going to hear how great everything is when we beat Cuba and Canada. It's so freaking embarrassing that it's simply made me disinterested. Do I care about these next two games? When we're now using our top team to beat a couple minnows? When we continue to build around MB 4-5 years after he ceased to be a top 11 player?

    Frankly, I hope we lose to Canada, and we can finally get rid of Egg. I don't need a 3-0 win, and then have us rolling into the Hex with Trapp, Bradley, Lovitz, Baird, and Zardes. Maybe a cameo from Omar Gonzalez! What a joke.
     
  23. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Egg Head no longer has the excuse of Puli being on poor form or not playing much.

    He's been a major part of Lumpy being named Prem manager of the month.

    My guess is inept Egg Nog produces such an inept tactical setup vs Canada that the midfield can't control tempo nor connect to the attack.
     
  24. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    So, after a devastating well-below expectation qualification due in large part to MLS bias and poor roster/lineup construction, the new coach choose 20 players (many of which, including the aging centerpiece, were part of the non-qualifying squad) instead of casting a wide net to look at players. Many many posters here were howling that we need to look broadly at the beginning of a rebuild to see who we have and how the pieces fit together.

    the coach chose not to do that and relied heavily upon his MLS familiarity in camp after camp. We pushed for Morales and you said,"he wasn't that good for the USMNT and he's not materially better than Trapp/Bradley" and now you've forgotten your position. Now that the results are exactly what many of us have feared, do posters like you admit "hey you guys were right and Berhalter was too ambitious"? Nope, you sneer and say, well, he added 6 players to his core, what more do you want?

    Are you f***ing kidding me? I want a broad look at the pool where he treats players in roughly equivalent leagues to MLS the same as players in MLS. i want to abandon a pursuit of a possession attacking style (although some critics still want this) and abandonment of his stupid system.

    Most of all, I want to not have Bradley/Trapp as a regista.
     
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  25. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Your guess is pretty much fact. The question is - can Egg/USSF get Bradley the caps record before this team falls of a freaking cliff? It don't matter if a Bundesliga starter is on the squad and better than him at his position. Bradley will be playing.
     
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