If you just break it down then Vidal is better defensively, more of a goal threat, better in shielding the ball, better in transition. Kroos is the better passer but at crucial times not reliable in this (here and here) I disagree with the take on the 2018 World Cup (check the kicker grades). I agree the Copa America is not the best opposition but Vidal was generally good or solid in the Argentina games, arguably better as when Kroos played the same team (with his Gerrard like backpass in Higuain his feet). Kroos is perhaps the better tournament player (though Vidal has impressive CL games throughout the full decade) but Vidal better over the long run and in the league. Just more influential and impactful over the long haul to me.
I absolutely love Vidal so I think he's a valid inclusion and I think he's a hugely underrated player generally, but his tactical discipline is one thing against him. Particularly in his Bayern spell he felt like he was a red card waiting to happen. Maybe that's unfair (I'm not sure what his disciplinary record is like exactly) but watching him, he felt like a hand grenade quite a lot of the time and got sucked in by the emotion of the game. Still a great player though and one who doesn't often get his dues.
Yes I mentioned that negative myself too. He has 125 yellow cards and 5 red cards for his clubs in his career since 2007 (104 since 2009, Kroos has 60+ since 2009 but also engages duels not as often or is as focused on transitional aspects - per WhoScored Vidal makes twice as many tackles + interceptions per game, and both can lead to fouls, more so than the blocks where Vidal ranks twice as high too). That is not too glorious certainly, but for perspective he is not Ramos here either. However, if we look at Kroos as comparison material then we see various big instances where he turns into Gerrard with 'brainless' backpasses (to Korea, to Higuain) or is not capable/tight/focused enough to be a match for an old and slow Pirlo, or an old and slow Xabi Alonso + headless chicken (as midfielder) Di Maria. So to an extent that scores out each other. In the other thread I did mention Kroos was very good and the best midfielder of his team in 2014 (Johan Cruijff went one step further and famously argued/showed he should have received the player of the tournament trophy), but not convinced about euro 2016 once he started to play the better teams instead of Northern Ireland and Slovakia (the kicker grades vs Italy and France agree with me and are indifferent for him). The 2018 World Cup was by all accounts woeful (not even among the best of his team like Hummels or Ozil) and can't understand the comparison to Vidal's 2014 here, honestly. For me Vidal has won a respectable amount of league titles, with personal contribution in this (he's also a goal threat as mentioned, with assists too). He never won the Champions League but was close a few times throughout the decade and that counts for me (+ one Europa League semi final). Furthermore, he has been solid to excellent for his national team, including when he plays the big boys like Spain or Argentina.
1980-1990 Forward: Careca (Guarani, Sao Paulo, Napoli, Brazil) Forward: Ian Rush (Liverpool, Juventus, Wales) Forward: Preben Elkjaer Larsen (Lokeren, Verona, Vejle, Denmark) Midfield: Diego Maradona (Argentinos Juniors, Boca Juniors, Barcelona, Napoli, Argentina) Midfield: Soren Lerby (Ajax, Bayern Munich, Monaco, PSV, Denmark) Midfield: Jean Tigana (Lyon, Bordeaux, Marseille, France) Defense: Anotnio Cabrini (Juventus, Bologna, Italy) Defense: Junior (Flamengo, Torino, Pescara, Brazil) Defense: Alan Hansen (Liverpool Scotland) Defense: Karlheinz Forster (Stuttgart, Marseille, West Germany) Goalkeeper: Rinat Dasayev (Spartak Moscow, Sevilla, Soviet Union) Honorable Mention: H Sanchez, Ceulemans, Francescoli, Romero, Conti, Littbarski, Burruchagra, Schuster, Demyanenko, Gerets, Amoros, Briegel, Pezzey, Olsen, Schuumacher, Pfaff, Southall This was a tough one with a lot of players at similar levels and only one obvious standout. A lot of good fullbacks, where as other eras had a lack at this position.
The more I think about it, the less sense this makes. Kroos was only a late substitute in 2010 or not used at all. This repeated in 2012 (80th minute substitute or not all), except for the Italy match that went wrong. 2014 was the only tournament where he performed against the bigger teams (goals and assists against Portugal, France, Brazil) while in 2016 and 2018 he was indifferent against teams better than Northern Ireland or Slovakia. Meanwhile, Arturo Vidal showed himself against the big boys in more than one tournament. Of course the competition for places is perhaps less strong in the Chile national team but he has had more than two good tournaments. It is right the average level in the Copa America isn't high, but he also did it continuously against the better teams. In the end he is more often in the team of the tournament and the euro 2016 opposition was watered down as well (esp. for the seeded teams). Three good tournaments vs two. Multiple tournaments with significant input against the big teams vs one tournament (okay that 'one' was plausibly better as any Vidal tournament).
Let's not forget Tony Adams who for his displays during the 90s were voted into PFA Team of the Century, partnering Bobby Moore.
I thought for sure Hugo Sanchez would be the starter for this XI. What about someone like Kenny Sansom who was named into PFA Team of the Year EIGHT times this decade, or Bryan Robson who was the dominant midfielder in England of this decade.
I would say for Kroos that he played well at Euro 16 vs at least one big teams in the loss vs France, he could have had multiple assists in this game if my memory is correct. I am looking back through some other matches trying to remember which matches my very positive memories of him from this tournament came from.
Who would you place Sanchez ahead of from the forwards? More than one? Honestly Sansom was very consistent but comparing him to all the other fullbacks on this list that could not make the team he does not compare in my opinion. Demyanenko, Gerets, Amoros, Briegel, Cabrini, and Junior all could massively impact a game and did so fairly regularly, I don't associate Samson being a difference maker. Also weren't a number of those PFA awards in part because there was no one else to win them? Robson is a good call for honorable mention.
Looking back I would agree with this now, I was overrating his one moment vs Sweden, he was bad vs South Korea. Vidal and Chile were much better in 2014 beating Spain and they could have easily beat Brazil.
They were both great in 2008, not saying van der sar was not, but Casillas beat him for all the national level awards and teams of the year for goalkeepers (ESM, FIFA, UEFA, IFFHS), van der sar was not even PFA Team of the Year.
As far as Keane goes I feel he peaked from 98-01 when United dominated three straight league titles, had the treble season and Keane was huge in qualifying Ireland for the 2002 world cup. He was very good in the early 90s as well but I don't feel like he dominate play in the same way as he did post 97 injury.
Which is rather strange. The UEFA technical commission placed him in the Champions League team of the season (not only for his penalty save), with Casillas not even among the honorable mentions (Petr Cech and a young 22 years old Neuer - who exited early - were among those backups). 'Fink Tank' of The Times calculated he was the #2 most impactful of his team behind Cristiano Ronaldo that 2007-08 season, in the league (ahead of Cech, but slightly behind David James). His saves percentages and shots per goal conceded were very good. In the final he hastily prevented an own goal by Rio Ferdinand (who of course received the plaudits in all the awards): "The shock sparked Chelsea into new efforts, and within two minutes a pressurised Rio Ferdinand was grateful to his goalkeeper Edwin van der Sar, for palming away what would have been a spectacular own goal." (from the UEFA jury report) This helped to win him the man of the match award. Okay, I guess in 10-15 years time people will also think Oblak was poorer than Ter Stegen or Allison last season. Because the awards and BdO nominations say so. David James of Portsmouth was in the PFA team of the year, and admittedly in the top 10 of FinkTank, but would he still be voted in if he wasn't English and it was Jaaskelainen or so for a mid table side?
1975-1985 Forward: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, West Germany) Forward: Zico (Flamengo, Udinese, Brazil) Forward: Kenny Daglish (Celtic, Liverpool, Scotland) Midfield: Michel Platini (Nancy, Saint-Etienne, Juventus, France) Midfield: Falcao (Internacional, Roma, Brazil) Midfield: Marco Tardelli (Como, Juvenuts, Italy) Defense: Maxime Bossis (Nantes, France) Defense: Manfred Kaltz (Hamburg, West Germany) Defense: Gaetano Scirea (Juventus, Italy) Defense: Daniel Passarella (River Plate, Fiorentina, Argentina) Goalkeeper: Peter Shilton (Stoke City, Nottingham Forest, Southampton, England) Honorable Mention: Krankl, Boniek, Simonsen, Socrates, Ardiles, Antognoni, Cerezo, Stielkie, Souness, Gentile, Pezzey, Fillol Toughest decision was the third midfielder alongside Platini and Falcao. Tardelli, Ardiles, Stielkie, Antognoni and Souness are all basically even in my eyes.
What did someone like Antognoni accomplish that a Arnold Muhren or Vercauteren did not? Was Antognoni really that great except for two decent-but-not-great tournaments and the odd league season for at the time the ~ 6th team of Italy? The 'big nations cartel' is very visible in this team. All of them except Krankl, Pezzey, Boniek and Simonsen belong among the usual big markets (19 of the 23). Looks rather skewed to me, and that while this period is often seen as a 'weak' one, also back then in many magazine articles of the time. (will be quiet now in this thread for today)
1970-1980 Forward: Johan Cruyff (Ajax, Barcelona, Netherlands) Forward: Kevin Keegan (Liverpool, Hamburg, England) Forward: Rob Rensenbrink (Club Brugge, Anderlecht, Netherlands) Midfield: Willem van Hanegem (Feyenoord, AZ Alkmaar, Netherlands) Midfield: Rivellino (Corinthians, Fluminense, Brazil) Midfield: Johan Neeskens (Ajax, Barcelona, Netherlands) Defense: Paul Breitner (Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Eintracht Braunschweig, West Germany) Defense: Berti Vogts (Borussia Mönchengladbach, West Germany) Defense: Elías Figueroa (Penarol, Internacional, Palestino, Chile) Defense: Ruud Krol (Ajax, Netherlands) Goalkeeper: Dino Zoff (Napoli, Juventus, Italy) Honorable Mention: Cubillas, Bettega, Kempes, Lato, Denya, Haan, Nelinho, Periera, Ondrus, Viktor, Maier Many of tough decisions here. The team seems heavy on dutch players vs Germanys but the two most famous Germans will be in 65-75 decade. One of the hardest parts of this decade was placing players. Cruyff 65-75 vs 70-80 in my opinion comes down to which three seasons you rate higher 66-67, 67-68, and 68-69 vs 75-76, 76-77, and 77-78. The late 60s were better for the European Cup and the late 70s better with the national team. Still not sure if this was the right choice. Keegan is also difficult to place weighing the early 70s vs the early 80s, van Hanegem with late 60s vs late 70s, Zoff early 70s vs early 80s. As far as who made it into the team, as I type this I am still considering Viktor over Zoff. Zoff is the big name but honestly Viktor's resume looks better in may ways to me, I think he is underrated overall. Also I think Viktor's best fit might be 65-75 for capturing the most high level seasons, but that would lose his signature achievement in 76. Maier as well is right there. The other player it was really tough to leaver out was Denya.
1965-1975 Forward: Gerd Muller (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Forward: Jairzinho (Botafogo, Marseille, Brazil) Midfield: Dragan Dzajic (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia) Midfield: Jimmy Johnstone (Celtic, Scotland) Midfield: George Best (Machester United, Northern Ireland) Midfield: Gerson (Botafogo, Sao Paulo, Brazil) Defense: Roberto Perfumo (Racing, Cruziero, River Plate, Argentina) Defense: Hector Chumpatiz (Universitario, Peru) Defense: Albert Shesternyov (CSKA Moscow, Soviet Union) Defense: Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern Munich West Germany) Goalkeeper: Ladislao Mazurkiewicz (Penarol, Atletico Mineiro, Uruguay) Honorable Mention: Tostao, Mazzola, Kiezer, Riva, Netzer, Overath, Pirri, Bremner, Suurbier, Gemmel, Khurtsilava, Ancheta, Israel A lot of tough players to leave out here, especially Tostao, Riva, Netzer, Overath, Pirri, Bremner.
Honestly, can someone explain the case for Antognoni? Maybe there is a Totti scenario playing out, but back then the league coefficient wasn't great.
One thing I remeber was looking through Balon d'Or voting for midfielders from this time, and he was consistently getting a few votes here and there while Tardelli got none despite playing for a more famous team, which made me hesitate with Tardelli. I thought Tardelli had two great world cups in this period which is a major reason why I included him. I think both ratings from France football reflected this. But him failing to get any significant Balon d'Or votes did surprise me.
Interesting comparison, I still think I would say Careca is better for me. Tough to compare national team careers because one played for Brazil and the other for Mexico, but Careca has clearly played well for the national team consistently throughout the decade and in big tournaments. Sanchez failed to make an impression in the chances afforded to him. Careca is also a big what if, if he had not gotten injured before the 82 WC. His style of play as a more team oriented CF with great movement could have put that team over the top. But at the same time I am not sure if he would have gotten his chance even if healthy, which I think is overlooked, he was not the locked on starter at this point. He also kept Romario out of the national team at the end of the decade. Domestically Sanchez is probably better, although I think Careca gets somewhat underrated for an excellent domestic career in Brazil. The thing that gets me with Sanchez is how much lower his scoring averages are in the EC and for the national team vs domestic. When he is playing for Real Madrid against inferior teams in Spain he has great numbers but that did not translate to continental competitions, which for me hurts a lot more than the national team issues. Real had a good enough team around him and had enough shots at the EC that i fell like he needed to have at least one strong run. Maybe 89 was closest to strong run? All together I think they are close. If Careca played for Real I think he could have approached Sanchez's production domestically and maybe improved them in Europe? On the other hand if Sanchez plays for Brazil he probably has an excellent national team career.
On the Italy side Rossi in 78, 79 and 82 and Bettega in 77 and 78 where the only ones getting any significant votes, maybe Conti in 82 as well. Well lets see... Italitan votes for Balon d'Or 77-82 1977 Roberto Bettega: 4th place, 15 votes Franco Causio: 13th place, 3 votes Giancarlo Antognoni, 26th place, 1 vote 1978 Roberto Bettega: 4th place, 11 votes Paolo Rossi: 5th place, 9 votes Antonio Cabrini: 13th place, 1 vote (1st place!?) Franco Causio: 21st place, 1 vote 1979 Paolo Rossi: 6th place, 6 votes Franco Causio 21st place, 1 vote 1980 Dino Zoff: 11th place, 3 votes Francesco Graziani: 16th place, 1 vote Giancarlo Antognoni: 27th place, 1 vote Alessandro Altobelli: 27th place, 1 vote 1981 Dino Zoff: 6th place, 5 votes Giancarlo Antognoni: 21st place, 1 vote 1982 Paolo Rossi: 1st place, 24 votes Bruno Conti: 5th place, 14 votes Dino Zoff: 8th place, 4 votes Giancarlo Antognoni: 11th place, 1 vote Gaetano Scirea: 12th place 1 vote Marco Tardelli: 15th place, 1 vote In 83 Conti, Rossi and Cabrini get 1 vote, in 84 Cabrini gets 1 vote, in 85 no Italians get votes.
Antognoni was included four times but never got more than one vote. In 1977 he received a vote by East Germany, in 1980 by West Germany, in 1981 by Sweden, and in 1982 by Sweden as well. I'm just asking and wondering what his case is. There is also Brady (8th in 1980, 9th in 1981), Boniek (3rd in 1982), Platini (9th in 1982) taking votes away from Tardelli. Later on in 1985 Laudrup.