I'm going to create a watch list for each line in the team, so we can keep track of positions in one place. Think it keeps things more tidy. So go ahead and fill the thread with players, but please with reasons too!
Article on the debate we had concerning De Roon: https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetbal/oranje-met-of-zonder-de-golfbreker-van-bergamo~ae4aa50e/ PREMIUM Marten de Roon. © SCS/Sander Chamid Oranje met of zonder de golfbreker van Bergamo? Orange with or without the breakwater of Bergamo?
I don't think there is a debate about de Roon. I think it's more a question of designing the tactics for the opponent you are facing. He is not the kind of player who will help unlock 'park the bus' teams. He is a good player against teams such as Germany and France where he can help shut down the other team's MF.
Van Hanegem in his AD column writes that when/if Ihattaren chooses the Orange team he has to be in the selection of the EC2020 immediately. Aad de Mos wrote about the AZ trio Stengs, Boadu and Koopmeiners too they should be part of the EC2020 selection. How do you think the midfield could be constructed to have both forward power, but also the wave breaker attribute needed.
In other words, how to deconstruct the current set up de Roon-de Jong-Wijnaldum and reconstruct it with the others, van de Beek/Ihattaren/Koopmeiners?
https://www.ad.nl/europees-voetbal/bloedserieuze-koopmeiners-leert-van-mcgregor-en-brady~a18d309d/ Already posted it in the Orange thread, but it's better placed here!
@PuckVanHeel posted this link about Frenkie in another thread I think is very well suited for this thread: New @feyenoordsoccerfan Articles like this with claimed 'facts' on distance run etc. https://as.com/futbol/2019/10/12/primera/1570864441_466536.html Translation by google: Technicians hallucinate with De Jong: he has broken several records in the physical tests The Dutchman is the toughest, the one who recovers best, the one with the highest aerobic capacity, the one who touches the most balls and the one that covers the most heat zones. Javier Miguel Javier Miguel 10/12/2019 09:37 39 Since Barcelona introduced in its daily work routine the technology to evaluate physical and resistance parameters through GPS vests, they had not found such spectacular data and even less as clustered as those produced by Frenkie de Jong . They say inside the locker room that the Dutchman has the characteristics of “a total athlete”, with a “privileged” physicist who could “participate in Olympic Games in medium and long distance races”. In all the preseason physical tests, in the friendly ones, in the training sessions and in the official matches, the midfielder has surpassed himself and seems to have no roof yet. He is the player who travels the most kilometers in a match, although due to his position on the field and the way he plays, it may seem quite the opposite, he is the one with the greatest aerobic capacity to face an effort, the one that recovers best after wear , the toughest, the one that touches the most balls and the one that covers the most heat zones on a pitch. All this data makes him the most complete player in the squad. In fact, some of the parameters that the Dutchman has achieved have never been seen since Barcelona resorts to this type of technology. His ability to recover after an energetic wear is much higher than any of his companions and his resistance to remain in the field without noticing the effort is almost insurmountable. Until now it was Rakitic and Sergio Busquets who had reached some years ago the most spectacular figures, but De Jong has swept them away. "It does not seem so, but it is a physical wonder, a beast," assumes one of the staff members, who acknowledges that he did not give credit to the first data evaluation that the GPS analyzed on the laptop, with ultra-broadband technology, during the premiere of the test this season. This privileged condition allows De Jong to add many minutes and be an essential piece for Ernesto Valverde's board. In fact, it is the longest signing with more travel this season, has already added 809 minutes, almost 90% of the total that have been played, no match has been lost yet and has also started nine times and substitutes only in a.
Ihattaren, if available, would be a tremendous help. He is a technician, comfortable with ball on his feet, and more importantly, a great passer. I would slide him higher up in the final third in midfield, and drop Wijnaldum deeper to the center (or even alongside Frenkie as a double-pivot). I think right now the team begs for more creativity, and a vision-caster, aside from Frenkie. Memphis often drops deep to fill this role, which unfortunately could lead to too much opening upfront. Gini (I am a fan of) is not the kind of attacking midfielder that you would necessary trust with the ball; he will however give you a balanced output. He can make forward runs (see first goal vs. Belarus), and he would have no issue closing down and fortifying the defense. The main concern with Ihattaren is that he is so inexperienced (yet to have a full year in first team), and physically too lightweight at the moment. Not to mention he hasn’t fully committed yet to Oranje. So I guess for now I am content with De Roon against the heavy hitters (Germany, Portugal, England) and Van de Beek for lesser-threatening opponents. I didn’t think the “experiment” with Donny was an utter failure... he had some positive moves, but he wasn’t quite in the same wavelength (need more time with the boys).
https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetbal/de-transformatie-van-wijnaldum-in-oranje~ad8c428f/ Georginio Wijnaldum hoe we hem steeds vaker zien, juichend in het shirt van Oranje. Hier met Donyell Malen na zijn treffer tegen Duitsland. © EPA De transformatie van Wijnaldum in Oranje Na zijn twee goals tegen Wit-Rusland is Georginio Wijnaldum (28) met vijf treffers de meest scorende middenvelder uit de EK-kwalificatiereeks. Het zegt alles over zijn veranderde rol binnen het Oranje van Ronald Koeman. Om het nog beter in kaart te brengen: Wijnaldum scoorde zeven keer in zijn laatste elf interlands, even vaak als in zijn 49 wedstrijden daarvoor in het Nederlands elftal. Tijdens de huidige kwalificatiereeks maakte hij vijf doelpunten in zes duels. Daarmee zit hij al over zijn vorige totaal heen. In al zijn voorgaande kwalificatiereeksen bij elkaar opgeteld scoorde Wijnaldum vier keer in negentien wedstrijden. Rol Georginio Wijnaldum gisteren in actie tegen Wit-Rusland. © BSR Agency Het grote verschil zit in de rol van Wijnaldum in het huidige Oranje. Onder voorgaande bondscoaches had de speler van Liverpool vaak een meer verdedigende taak op het middenveld. Sinds de aanstelling van Koeman neemt Wijnaldum over het algemeen plaats op ‘10’, met in de meeste wedstrijden Frenkie de Jong en Marten de Roon naast zich. Zijn aanvallende rol in het Nederlands elftal komt duidelijk naar voren in de statistieken. Los van zijn goals en assists, had Wijnaldum vergeleken met de vorige kwalificatiereeksen veel meer balcontacten binnen het zestienmetergebied van de tegenstander. Lag dat eerder nog op gemiddeld twee per wedstrijd, is dat nu gestegen naar 6,3 per duel. Dat resulteert onder meer in een hogere productie schoten van Wijnaldum, die nu het vijandelijke doel per wedstrijd vaker onder vuur neemt. De cijfers werken ook de andere kant op. Wijnaldum verovert in zijn huidige rol een stuk minder vaak de bal dan in de kwalificatiereeks voor het WK van 2018. Niet zo gek, gezien zijn huidige plek op het veld. Passend is Wijnaldum de afgelopen jaren alleen maar verbeterd. Ondanks zijn diepere plek op het veld behaalt de middenvelder voorlopig een hogere passnauwkeurigheid (88,8 procent) dan in de vorige kwalificatiereeksen.
https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetba...l-beter-kan-ook-frenkie-was-te-laks~ae78d6d9/ Verval bewijst dat er veel beter kan: ook Frenkie was te laks Analyse OranjeHet Nederlands elftal moet zich in 2019 gaan plaatsen voor het EK. Oranje-kenner Maarten Wijffels legt de ploeg bij elke interland langs de meetlat. Vier vragen en antwoorden over Wit-Rusland - Nederland. Maarten Wijffels 14-10-19, 07:01 1. Was er snelheid en variatie in het aanvalsspel? Eén helft deed Oranje wat het moest doen tegen dit soort tegenstanders: de bal laten gaan, het spel van kant naar kant verleggen en ook bij balverlies meteen druk op de Wit-Russen houden. Waarom kon Georginio Wijnaldum voor de pauze excelleren? Mede omdat spelers als Donyell Malen en Donny van de Beek geen moment stilstaan als ze voetballen, letterlijk altijd onderweg zijn. Dynamiek en diepgang zonder bal en zo ruimte scheppen voor een ander. Wat ook prettig was voor álle spelers van Oranje: de Wit-Russen brachten het niet op om Frenkie de Jong voor de voeten te lopen zoals Noord-Ierland afgelopen donderdag. Ook hij kwam aanvankelijk meer in het spel voor. 2. Maar kan een middenveld De Jong-Van de Beek-Wijnaldum ook tegen een topland straks op het EK? Nou, in elk geval niet met het verval dat er gisteren na de 0-2 voorsprong kwam. Want de tweede helft, die was ondermaats. Er gebeurde nu precies hetzelfde als in de heenwedstrijd van maart dit jaar. De Wit-Russen mochten ineens vier, vijf keer kort na elkaar het middenveld oversteken. En niet met een lange bal en dan heel hard rennen, maar dribbelend. Dertig, soms veertig meter en niemand die ze tegenhield. Frenkie de Jong liep wel met zijn armen te gebaren, maar ook hij was gewoon te laks. Twee keer liep het eerst nog goed af, uit de derde aanval viel indirect de 1-2. Het leert maar weer hoe nauw het luistert, het eeuwige spel van de balans tussen aanval en verdediging. De kunst om terwijl jouw team aanvalt, ook alvast te denken aan de organisatie bij mogelijk balverlies: er zijn niet zo veel spelers die dat kunnen. Daarom zal Marten de Roon bij dit Oranje altijd in beeld blijven. Het was typerend dat Koeman hem nog inbracht om de grip terug te krijgen. 3. Wat bracht De Roons invalbeurt gisteren? Kort en bondig: na zijn entree kreeg Oranje geen doelpoging meer tegen. Dat zal geen toeval zijn. 4. Was Joël Veltman de juiste keuze als rechtsback? Een positie of zes, zeven, die staan wel zo’n beetje vast bij Oranje. Rechtsback blijft één van de posities waar de concurrentiestrijd volledig open is. Bij Denzel Dumfries is het soms allemaal wat wild. Hij zal bij wijze van spreken nooit een degen gebruiken als het ook met een tank kan. Maar Veltman mist weer de dynamiek van Dumfries. Eigenlijk zou Rick Karsdorp al lang de vaste back van dit Oranje moeten zijn. Maar even afgezien van blessures: zoiets vraagt ook mentale stabiliteit.
There's alot of talk about Ihattaren "yes or no Orange choice". However if one looks at it from his pov in what are the chances he makes it into the Orange squad things are going to look alot different than those who are for a year or so trumpetting he has to be put into the Orange team. Those people are the pinnackle of the bunch standing on the shore yelling instructions to people on the river, while they donot face the consequences of what they yell. First of all, I'm a huge fan of Ihattaren and it's a delight to see him play. And yes, I want him to choose the Orange squad for sure. However when it comes to putting money where your mouth is I ask the likes of van Hanegem etc. that he has to be in the team who than do you throw out without disturbing the balance of the midfield. We have as our midfield now de Jong, Wijnaldum, de Roon. Obviously Ihattaren is far superior to van Roon as a player. What happens if we replace de Roon? We've seen the result when he was replaced by Donny, not good at all. The result people moaning for the Roon to be removed by Donny was that we became dangerously vulnerable in the defense. As I always said a midfield has to be in perfect balance and de Roon showed that his presence liberated Wijnaldum and the Orange midfield became effective and dangerous. So if de Roon has to stay (I really doubt Mo can fill the role of de Roon in that sense), who then should be removed? Wijnaldum? De Jong? I'm very curious about that answer. Van Hanegem and co can talk cheaply from the sideline, but I really would like to know what their answer is.
Maybe push Wijnaldum to a more defensive role like he plays with Liverpool. Allow Ihattaren to roam free with two of the best behind him. Could be lethal
Interesting alternative. How was Gino in such a role at Pool if he has done it there? Anybody knows that?
I could be wrong about it, but from the sparse times I visited the Pool threads I got the impression they liked the way he plays for the Orange team.
For most opponents (outside top 4-5 teams?), Gino is more than capable holding the midfield intact. Against the silky playmakers, the Hazard/De Bruyne's, Sterling's of the world, a stronger gatekeeper like De Roon should be called upon. Look... I am not against De Roon at all, but unless he significantly increases his creativity and mobility, he's holding the team back offensively, and should make a way for a player with better assist & goals outputs, e.g. Ihatarren, Donny v.d. Beek, or even Stengs or Bergwijn (who are rather position-less in their respective clubs... no.10? A false 9?)
Well, Donny didnot make a good impression at all against a weak opponent in defensive pov, so when will he be usefull then? Koeman had to mend the holes Donny allowed by throwing in de Roon eventually. To me a swap of de Roon is only defendable if someone takes his place who is as least capable to keep the defense from being overwhelmed. All the swap de Roon for Donny callers were effectively gagged by what happened when Koeman did just that. The difference in defense between a midfield with Donny or de Roon was staggering. So I only feel for an option that is as good as de Roon can deliver. I'm interested in the Wijnaldum option, but I really have no clue if he's up to de Roon standard in the defensive part. 90% de Roon standard isnot good enough in the confrontations the Orange squad faces towards the EC2020 Final.
You are so quick to jump on Donny and claim he ruins the balance but I don't think that is fair at all. Yes, the team wasn't better last time with Donny, but that's one game. I think it's ridiculous to consider De Roon a "must have" in this midfield. De Roon isn't a special player at all, and as far as the balance he adds to the team I consider that extremely overrated. We saw how that turned out against Northern Ireland and against other opponents, he brings nothing. Frenkie is a great controller, Wijnaldum is a great runner, but we need actual creativity. I agree with the opinion of BaritoPutra, we have other midfield players who provide enough defense against most teams. Frenkie does a remarkable amount of defensive work while also Wijnaldum is a heavy presser in midfield. Why do we need a "stofzuiger" next to those two? It's not like we have a midfield of Van der Vaart and Sneijder... Frenkie and Wijnaldum defend a lot. Fine if we play him tactically occasionally against a team with a super strong midfield to help shut that down, but that's only a few games per year and even then I would often rather choose to play to our own strengths. With a midfield of Frenkie, Wijnaldum and Ihattaren (assuming he continues his progression) or VdB/Stengs you should not be adjusting to another teams midfield, they should be adjusting to you. I just really don't think De Roon is that great. He's no Nigel de Jong and he's no Van Bommel. What exactly does he bring against 90% of teams? We have some of the best (if not the best) CB's in the world plus the positional strengths of Frenkie and Wijnaldum in front of them in the midfield, surely that should be enough. Lest we forget in 2010 Spain beat us with a midfield of Busquets, Xavi, and Alonso. That same midfield also won them the Euros 2 years later.
You make good points, but those donot change the facts that the balance in the midfield was gone when he wasnot there and back the moment he was put in again. Nobody claims de Roon to be a great player, but he does fulfill a role that was absent before and made Gino flourish. To point to a case from the past. When Cruijff played for Feyenoord he had a midfielder of very good quality next to him. After a couple of matches he wanted another player in that spot, Koko Hoekstra. Nobody understood why Johan wanted a far less gifted player next to him, but in the end Johan proved he was the one who understood what was necesary. To make the midfield function he didnot need the gifted one, but the one that could do the dirty work and in the end Feyenoord won the double. Johan pointed at the classic mistake people make by not looking at how something functions, but at the quality of the players and presuming it to function better than with a less gifted one. It's the output of the combined parts that must be the decisive factor, not the judgement on the qualities of individual players. That is irrelevant from a pov of getting results.
Yeah I can understand that. I also don't think Van de Beek is the player we need in the midfield. Van de Beek thrives off making runs for teammates who provide the creativity and chances (such as Ziyech and Tadic). Oranje currently does not have that creativity which means that Van de Beek's upside is significantly reduced in our team. I think we need a player like Ihattaren or Stengs in the middle who can provide that creativity. Coupled with Wijnaldum and Frenkie I think that's a very strong midfield with enough athletic/defensive strength and also great goal scoring and ball rendition potential. Personally I would like to see: Depay - Malen - Stengs ----- Ihattaren ---- Wijnaldum - Frenkie I think that team has the perfect combination of runners and creative players. Wijnaldum and Frenkie both do a great job forcing turnovers, assisting the defense and working out from the back (especially Frenkie). It also seems fairly similar to the Spain offense that dominated for such a long time with: Pedro - Villa - Iniesta -------- Xavi -------- Alonso - Busquets In potential the offense I proposed could absolutely reach that level. Then with Van Dijk and De Ligt or De Vrij as CB, you have a defensive block that could be the best in the world if they get into a flow. For corners if De Ligt and/or Van Dijk go forward, have Frenkie and Wijnaldum drop back to cover for them. Now we just need our Casillas and Ramos (in RB position). I am curious how Ake would do as a RB option...
That's, as I posted earlier, is what makes me interested if Gino is capable of doing the de Roon job good enough. If so that combo you put down there could be devastating. Edit: devastating to other teams back line I mean
We'll have to see, I reckon he could. Xabi Alonso and Busquets both aren't De Roon types either, but both definitely put in work and supported the defense. I think assuming Frenkie = Busquets in this scenerio, Wijaldum should be more than capable of providing at least as much defensive attribution as Alonso. He definitely has a better engine.
Don't get me wrong, because I've got very high opinion on Ihattaren, but it's completely surreal to think he has a chance to become starter for next years Euro. Not only taking into account Koeman's conservatism in selection, MAYBE he'll get some minutes in irrelevant matches prior to the tournament and he'll find a spot as 18-21st player in a roster, but if not, I won't be suprised, but I don't see many reasons why Vilhena or other Strootman may be in Euro squad. Not because of a fact he's not extremely talented kid, but because of a fact there's no time for experiments, and while there's a lot to improve in Dutch's play, they're right now serious contenders for top4 in Europe. About De Roon's spot in starting lineup, on the one hand, I don't agree with this general underrating of his abilities (he's a good player being a starter in very good club past few years), but on the other hand - his relevance to Netherlands is related to tactics Koeman has decided to use since he started his tenure as a coach. From tactical standpoint, there's no reason why Netherlands couldn't play Ajax-bis football - Frenkie as Frenkie, Wijnaldum playing Schone-like stabilization role in a midfield, and Van de Beek as the most offensive midfielder. Not to mention Virgil is much better suited as a central back to play pressing-based game than Daley Blind (sic) as central back ever was. Wijnaldum plays similar role in Liverpool's midfield, and he played as well similarly during 2014 World Cup where, while Netherlands played 5-3-2, he was playing deeper with De Jong while Sneijder was a '10'. But Koeman decided to use Wijnaldum differently (more PSV-like role), and to be fair with him, it has some success considering Gini scored like 7 (?) goals past year in national. So, theoretically, lineup with Frenkie, Gini (but in different role) and offensive midfielder (let's say Donny) would have bigger upside (cause they're better players then de Roon), but in fact with Frenkie and Wijnaldum's level in NT, there's no reason for Koeman to complicate staff. And van de Beek isn't a good fit as typical centre midfielder against elite teams, so we'll see him as a sub when result is bad, or against weaker opponents. So, we'll see a year from now how this Koeman's squad can show in important international tournament, and then we'll see Netherlands; upside with young guys getting into a team. I think potential success of this team is more based on offensive contribution of attacking trio (more precisely, other players than Depay - than on complicating staff in midfield. So much more I'd expect from Koeman to take a risk and play with Promes, Depay and Stengs, considering how well Promes is playing in Ajax, and how great Stengs is as 'creative' winger - than mixing things in midfield, what's still the best part IMHO of this team. But that's discussion for another thread. In a future, I dream about: Frenkie (deep-lying playmaker), Gravenberch (box-to-box with high goals-assist rate), Ihattaren (playmaker in front of midfield duo) - with Koopmeiners, van de Beek, and in longer times perspective, players like Taylor, Unuvar, Regeer, Taabouni, Burger, maybe Reis, Eiting... The upside is an absurd, especially considering a fact that the difference between the oldest (Frenkie and VDB) and the youngest (Unuvar and Regeer) is only 6 years, so they can play 5-6 years in NT efficiently at the same time.