Nations League A, Camp 1, Cuba/Canada, Oct. 11/15

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by thedukeofsoccer, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    ok, suppose we were to call up every EPL/BL/SerieA/Ligue1/Belgian/Dutch starter who is healthy. Whom did Berhalter miss? Dest is sitting this one out.

    Yet people complain that we stink and that everybody is from MLS. Would you be happy if we called up B2 players like Picault, Gyau, Wooten, Wood, Green?

    p.s. edit: How about Stanko? Are you high on him?
     
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think that the B2 is roughly equivalent to MLS so I think that a starter can’t be much worse than trapp, Bradley, Baird, lovitz, et al.

    we know the MLS guys aren’t good enough (not sure why it takes so long for Berhalter to figure this out since he’s so familiar with MLS - isn’t a big part of being familiar knowing who isn’t that good?)

    Perhaps we should see if the overseas guys are just as shitty as the domestic ones and then we can cycle back.

    So why don’t you answer my questions: are you ok with. 59% and 69%? I’m guessing you want Weston out of the starting lineup, if not the pool for some strange personal reason, so maybe those numbers are too low for you.
     
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  3. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Aaronson is a pretty interesting player. He deserves the opportunity.
     
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  4. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    imo as injury replacements it should be:

    Miles Robinson in for Zimmerman
    Jeremy Ebobisse in for Altidore, but wouldn't hate Sapong, and would be happy for him
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Except there are better similarly aged players that are better and have more potential than him.
     
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  6. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    He's getting regular first team minutes and looks like he belongs with grown men. Not only does he look like he belongs, but he is actually making things happen and impacting games.

    He looks like a player with a lot of potential to me. He's skillful, confident, can pick out killer balls, and plays with passion. The team needs all of those things.

    Being dismissive of an 18-year old who is outshining his peers (and those older than him as well) seems a little unwise.
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Regular first team minutes in MLS doesnt mean anything. We have seen that for over 20 years. I don't mind Aaronson getting a shot. Its about the other kids his age who are better than him who arent.

    Ledezma > Aaronson
     
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  8. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Ledezma is with the U23's and hasn't seen a single first team minute.

    I like Ledezma as much as the next guy, but he needs to get on the field with professionals.

    Aaronson is playing at a much higher level than Ledezma. It's up to Ledezma to make the climb.
     
  9. btlove

    btlove Member

    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    Austin Texas
    Ledezma is playing with Jong PSV in the second division with professionals.
     
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  10. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Pomykal is better than Aaronsen with more upside. He is probably hurt though. There are a dozen U23 players in MLS alone that have played better. Aaronsen is probably too slow to play for the USMNT now or long term. Hard to get faster. But I like Aaronsen and he can't be worse than Roldan or Trapp. I doubt he can play winger with his foot speed, but he can't be worse than Baird. GB just has low bars everywhere.

    "Playing with grown men" is such a strange thing to say. Ledezma doesn't play with grown men? FC Groningen (their latest opponent) is full of grown men looking to get promoted to the Eredivisie. Is that any different than playing FC Cinncy?

    I believe Aaronsen is called in because he stood out in U23 camp. It creates a carrot for everyone in U23 camp to prove they should be the next one. Ledezma now is in U23 Camp. If he stands out, he should get called up in November; regardless of whether he plays in whatever league is now not good enough or good enough.
     
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  11. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    This is a perfect and well-stated point. I agree that the BL2 is roughly equal to MLS and would not mind those players getting a call over serially underperforming MLS guys.

    I also think it's absurd that people in this thread have acted like the English Championship is no better than MLS except for maybe a few teams. I believe that only Atlanta would have a chance to finish in the playoff picture after enduring the slog of playing 46 league games in addition to the various much tougher cup games than MLS teams play. However, throw for example, Geoff Cameron's QPR (currently in 9th), in MLS and they'd be right at if not the favorite to win it all. I have watched more MLS this year than ever before and I'm totally comfortable stating more MLS teams would get relegated than be in the top half. Therefore, every Championship player we have that is playing regularly should get strong USMNT consideration and not just a token appearance in a weird formation (ARob). The only exception for me right now is CCV who hasn't looked very good for the worst team in the league.

    We need to move past many of our MLS guys that can't cut it and try different players, and that includes many different MLS players (ie - Hollingshead). Many of us have been screaming about that for six months now. The Hex is less than a year away and we do not have a team that's ready for it.
     
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  12. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    I think there's some truth to that, yes...that camp stand-outs get the carrot. I think that you're right there. I think that a coach will also evaluate that based on whether or not they're getting regular minutes on a professional team. Aaronson obviously checks both boxes.

    I also agree with your take on his speed. He doesn't have much to offer there. He does have some wit and some vision to go with his skill though, which is unusual for an 18-year old to have those things and have them translate to their professional league.
     
  13. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Yes, most of whom are under 23 years of age.
     
  14. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Yes, another strange thing to say. Richie is professional and plays with professionals. Richie makes more than Aaronsen; which is a neat trick if one is amateur and one is professional...

    Regardless of where they play, if Ledezma performs as well or better than Aaronsen did in U23 camp, he should be on the senior roster in November. No need to argue MLS vs whatever, they will have U23 in common. Same goes for Mendez or Gloster or Soto.
     
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  15. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    He has vision but his passing is not up to the level of his vision. He is brave in the tackle and comes away with the ball quite a bit. In that sense, his feet are quick, but he has no burst or top end speed.

    If he can get a quicker first step and quicker decision making, he can make up for his lack of speed (Durkin has the same issue and his club seems to think this can be developed).

    GB is ignoring three Championship players that are U25 and playing major minutes and playing mostly well. He is also ignoring a U25 2.Bund player that has been playing well to start the season. He is ignoring them for his own reasons, but he is inviting criticism because they are so clearly deserving of time and minutes. Whatever you think of Holmes or A. Robinson, to argue Roldan should get 95% of the minutes in a year over Holmes is hard to argue. Same with A. Robinson and Lovitz. Or Green and Baird.

    That these players are not in U23 Camp is more reason they should be in USMNT camp.
     
  16. btlove

    btlove Member

    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    Austin Texas
    I mean kind of not really? It’s a young league but there are tons of professionals. Ledezma recently played Cambuur average age of the 11 was nearly 25. They also played excelsior, average age of their 11 was 24. Plus they ARE in fact as you put it “professionals”
     
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  17. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    am i missing something? three of the five "b2" players you just named play in mls.
     
  18. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Has anyone checked Zardes for a voodoo doll? I know Altidore has been injury prone, but this is getting ridiculous.
     
  19. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Sarge starts dropping to injuries we will know for sure.
     
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  20. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    The big omissions are all in the English Championship. If you rank leagues by average transfer value (as objective a measure as you can get), then the EC ranks around 9 and MLS 15. The 2.Bund is just below MLS.

    That is who GB is ignoring. Can't say he missed them. Had to be a conscious choice.

    Wood and Green are in the B2. All the other players you mention are in MLS, so a little confusing. But then, outside of Green, nobody is talking about the 2BL. The main areas of talent that are being ignored:

    1. English Championship
    2. Champions League Reserve Teams

    Players from #1 (Ream, Miazga, Holmes) have generally looked good for GB. One player who was on #2 went immediately from ignored to centerpiece of the program in two weeks.
     
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  21. Brock Hannsen

    Brock Hannsen Member+

    Feb 3, 2014
    Hartford, CT
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I can't wait to see what Trapp offers us in this Nations League scrapple.
     
  22. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am not confident Jozy makes it to 2022. He is very injury prone. Perhaps relegated to a sub role at best.

    This isn't me hating on the guy. Just reality.
     
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  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I hope you're wrong but fear you're right. It's such a weak position for us we can't afford to lose anybody at that level (elite MLS player) or above.
     
  24. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    It's common practice for teams aspiring to be in the Top 20 to not call second division players. They rather call a guy in the Chinese superleague or the Emirates first division than one in a second division, even if it's La Liga 2 or the Championship. There's a reason for that, and it has to do with pressure --it's never the same at levels below the top.

    Otherwise, I'm not opposed to trying second division players, although I don't get the love for the Championship. Prices in England are severely inflated, so saying a Championship team is valued £50 million doesn't mean much to me, it only means the prices on the island have nothing to do with talent.

    Klinsmann avoided Championship guys below a certain line, and while I get why, I don't think we're at this point aspiring to be a Top 20 team any longer. We just hope to qualify.

    So, with all that caveat, and even though I'd be ok calling up such players, I feel it's foolish to think they're going to improve our team significantly. Antonee Robinson didn't do particularly well with the NT, neither did Green, nor Holmes. I don't have such short memory to forget the times they were not up to the international level.

    Thus, this time I'm fine with Egg's call-ups, because I don't feel we have any ace in the sleeve who has been left out. It's all guys who may have one or two good games for the NT when they come late against tired legs, in friendlies where the other team has already put their reserves on the field.

    It's mostly wishful thinking, and we can engage in it as fans. But the federation cannot. Also keep in mind the injuries and the guys who have been called for the U-23.
     
  25. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i am bored to tears of the "league" based call up theories, which reek of snobbery or "let me wave around what i have read about soccer leagues."

    this is very simple. there is efrain alvarez.

    there are a handful of foreign based O23s like green holmes and gall

    there are also the kids off your own U20 team -- the people your system identified as bigger prospects in that same age group as aaronson -- like mendez pomykal ledezma.

    some of them are also dual nationality risks we should be tying down, which aaronson is not. there is a reward for tying them down as well as a risk inhering in leaving them off that he lacks, which should dictate the sequence of events.

    if we are going to have an age group pipeline it would be wise to heed the decisions made in that pipeline eg that certain players stay in and that aaronson after having been a pipeline kid quit being called.

    but even that presentation doesn't cover it. does it have to be "aaronson versus?" why can't the useless yueill or roldan also make way? part of what p*sses me off is not only is this the one candidate who gets the "messaround spot," but that with how our midfield is playing we only think one mid spot is in contention.

    i also think that he is like a textbook camp cupcake choice, under a better regime. MLS, young, and the coach likes him, but not a pipeline player, modest statistics, and in that sense something of a stretch. ok, call up 30 people and he's one of your wild card choices. i am open to he surprises. but the timing and the idea that we open up one spot and it's him out of anyone is absurd.
     
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