Greatest European footballers In football history

Big picture just looking at defenders regardless of position it would be very hard to rate the best from France, A lot seem at a similarly high level.

something like this?

Top tier
Jonquet
Thurman
Blanc
Desailly
Tresor

Second tier
Amoros
Lizarazu
Bossis
Bosquier
Battiston

Third tier
Kaelbel
Angloma
Marche
Djorkaeff
Evra
Gallas
Boli
Leboef

Seems like Bossis and Amoros could get to tier one or Tresor to tier 2? not sure.

 

Thanks for the feedback @babaorum . Yes, I might have some things wrong (not too much I see ) and don't claim to know the ultimate truth or so.

Briefly checked it but he didn't look too good at two of the goals conceded (shirt number #4). Two of his team-mates were laying on the grass, that doesn't make the organization easier, surely, but he makes three mistakes in succession for the 2-3. At the 3-3 his positioning and defending is also questionable I'd say. In the Castrol Index (for 1982) he was outside the top 100 IIRC and this backs it up (only popping up for the one goal he scored).

Same applies to the England match, he's the player with the socks down. Again questionable movement and defending at both crosses, it might be said. It's visible he might be better suited as a sweeper by that point.

Sure it is also a team-sport (you can close someone down but what will your team-mates do...), hence Tresor wins points for his general influence (at NT level) despite most of the time not playing with a great goalkeeper or other defensive partners.

Interesting stuff here (he names Tresor as an example in both pieces - and yes I think he's an interesting player in the sense he was both stopper and libero with a good dribble):
https://www.sofoot.com/le-onze-de-reve-de-maxime-bossis-154304.html
https://www.sofoot.com/maxime-bossis-cruijff-etait-mon-modele-absolu-203539.html

edit: so while I think Dearman was wrong about Tresor (regardless of circumstance), he was more in the right direction about the full-back Bossis, defensively speaking (not the take on technique!). "Maxime Bossis’ technique is admired. His rhythm in interception is disappointed according to 3 -4 scenes captured. [...] As I see many matches of Bossis, he is not good enough as one of 50 most skilfull side-backs ever. Rare scene to see his above-average performance."

 

I' ll get a look closely to other games from Bossis when I could to judge more his defensive skills. Exhaustion might explain his questionable movements in those actions leading to the two German goals, as well as the fact the team was at that time completely off-balanced. I' ll try to see that more closely, but at the moment I don't see his defensive ability as a weakness. Remember that Thuram's questionable movement also led to Suker's goals in 98

His view on Marius Tresor is interesting indeed, as well as the comparison his makes with Desailly : "He was my idol when I was young. At the time, he was the most impressive libero in the world. I also played a lot with him in the France team. Marcel Desailly and Marius Trésor were, among the players I played with, the most physically impressive central defenders".

There's also this :

"Did you use this experience to bring it to Marcel Desailly, whom you accompanied in defense when he started out in Nantes in the 90's?

A little bit, but you know, Marcel was not someone who really needed to be accompanied. I was 34-35 years old, he was 23, and I'm not sure that I served him much. With Marius, they were made the same, two strong guys and very strong defensively. For me, they are the two best central defenders of the history of French football."

 

Yeah, it's hard to rank. I'd keep Tresor in tier 1 for sure. Bossis is between tier 1 and tier 2 I guess. I' d have him slightly above Amoros, but not by much (but there's no certainty here, frankly. it's more a personal feeling than anything else).

Among old timers we could maybe make a room for Christian Lopez and Gérard Janvion (as a full-back rather than CB). Sagnol was excellent (and since he left we've never really found any other competent RB) and I liked Abidal (more so than Evra, but I see why many rate him high).

I suppose Varane must be somewhere : in tier 2 certainly, waiting a room for tier 1 in the next years I bet. What about the other current players ? Umtiti ? Maybe he'll deserve a room, depending on how he manages to fix his knee issues. I'm sure Lucas Hernandez will rank high someday. He impresses me a lot (whereas Pavard doesn't impress me a lot).

 

True, it's not easy to assess this.

I'd have Evra in tier 2 for his club career and decent euro 2016, but I understand the controversy and he wasn't the player to give his teams a big push (full-backs rarely do). He has seven league titles as starter and only four other players played in five Champions League finals (Maldini, Cristiano, Sar, Seedorf).

I've doubts about Bosquier. He has ability and at best 10 good matches against elite teams but is it enough? He didn't accomplish a deep run with his club in an international setting, while the league coefficient was 16th-18th during his peak recognition. The Elo ranking of France (25th-30th) was also sub-standard, significantly lower than NED during the 'dark' 1980s and the recent weak years for example. It feels somewhat like ranking the silky Daley Blind among the best 'Holland' defenders, or as a better case John Metgod.

Saw this weekend this somewhat visionary long pass while under pressure, with a moving ball, by Jaap Stam - at 4:33 here (against your team @PDG1978 - unfortunately it doesn't show the full scene there).

 

Agree on Hernandez. Did he ever have a bad game in NT, or even average? He's just back on the team after his long-term injury and he's just like he was the last time we saw him.
This is good when we can count on players like him.

Talking about this question of the RB's, curious about Dagba for the future. We'll see him soon in the CL. It's the secondary position of Zouma also (like Tutu).

Before maybe making my Liberos' ranking me too, I will start by drawing a lineage, thus in order to have quite a clear picture in mind.

Let's start with the centre-half Jonquet ('right before' there was the Austrian Giusti Jordan but well, and before it's too different).

Jonquet, Herbin, Bosquier, Trésor, Bossis during a short time finally (in '86 it's Battisiton the libero and Bossis the stopper, more) but intense. And now we enter in the "last 30 years era" with Blanc who could remind Bossis indeed. Talaala and yes, Varane.

Lopez, indeed, was theorically a libero in club alongside attacking stopper Piazza) and played alongside Trésor in '82 at one point while he was usually his back-up. He, Lopez, will fall more in my CB/ stoppers category though since his best strenght was his hard-tackling when covering. He had a good distribution too and really a great shot but did not use it that often. Like Battiston who "discovered" his qualities of shooter and scorer only in '85 thus was chosen as the libero in '86. After that, or after '87, he was still one of the best in France at this position of libero but was ending his career outside of international football. So he'll fall into the Stopper's category as well because, also, as the right back he was before, he was quite rarely offensive (Yugoslavia '84 is one of the exceptions).
Between Blanc and Varane, the most noticeable one is Gallas, who played alongside Thuram in the 2006 World Cup. And a contemporary of Varane who played alongside him at the last World Cup is Umtiti. As already undelrined in above post, the injury-prone Umtiti. For an ensemble of reasons I'll have him more in the Stopper's category too, in Basile Boli's company. Same for Gallas who was not used without a reason as a man-marker in the centre or the most often on the sides at Chelsea.
We can also strongly think about Henri Michel to have his integral part in the lineage presented above as he was like a "libero of midfield" and a leader (which shown in '78 when finally accompanied with a cast of talented whose the mentality was way different than the one of the players of the last quarter of century. Henri Michel was 30 years old). In any case, he was a very complete midfielder, technical and strong but perhaps not very fast. Like Herbin who, in club, was hismelf a midfielder who ended his career as a libero but actually played the libero's position in national team. Herbin was good in the air, as demonstrated against England at the World cup '66. Herbin's international career was annihilated by the injuries and if we can agree that Michel was more talented (no Stéphanois here?), Herbin is not that far in these terms and that he was like a Michel before Michel (Henri, Henri Michel).
The "libero" of the 60's however was Bosquier, whose the main qualities were about anticipating on the attacks rather than searching for a fight in the melee thus corresponds much to the idea we can have of the archetypal libero. He was very modern due to that sense of anticipation and more generally his reading of the game. Also, we certainly have discussed about his prowesses on free-kicks enough already on this board, with the nice videos to support this. He prefigurated Laurent Blanc but never played a World Cup again after England '66 unfortunately (when he was 24 years old).
Then the 70s are the decade of Trésor about wich we have already discussed about (like Blanc)
The first of that lineage is obviously Jonquet, who somehow at the image of the best central defenders of today, combined steel and sense of orchestration (like Varane lately) that made him an incontestable leader of both the Reims and France teams of the 50s.
Like a Leboeuf was for Blanc, Kaelbel was Jonquet's back-up at the World Cup '54 when the later was unfortunately in a lesser form for this first participation of the French team since 1938. In '58, Kaelbel was the right back instead of Gianessi, who was the holder of this position in '54 before to be soon stopped in his career because of a lung infection. Kaelbel then winner of the French Cup in 1960 and was champion of France with Monaco in '61 as the new centre-half of the team coming from Strasbourg as one of the star recruits but did not weigh as much as expected in the results of the team as said at the time by his coach Lucien Leduc. Contrarily to World and European champion Blanc who later knew injuries himself in 1995-96 with Auxerre (for the double) but whose the presence was determining in the final straight, proving all his class.

I feel like I'm @Perú FC now and that I'm prepared to start thinking about my ranking.

(before clicking 'post reply', I see now there's been new messages)*

Note : famous international midfielders occasionally played at the libero position in club too like Deschamps (Nantes) and Petit (Monaco, also left back more). Sauzée even did in national team perhaps, probably. Perhaps in "Les Yeux dans les Bleus" or it was somewhere later or both, Petit says that he wants/ wanted to finish his career as a libero, like Beckenbauer.

* Ok I see now, that's more than one hour that I had started to type

 

Well, I took the time to put together my possible order/ranking for the top 50 greatest European footballers ever (or since the 1920's):

I have added to my criteria some numbers about the Worldwide Ballon d'Or exercise (with some personal variations), especially to order my ideas about periods of time and consistency and to take special care with how to consider the probable dimension of the players in their own time.

Although I would present this as my all-time ranking, I can only take the 1920's as the starting point, after the World War I, for the reasons I mentioned earlier in previous messages in this thread (that prevents me from naming players as Walter Arnott, G. O. Smith, Ernest Needham, Bob Crompton, Bobby Walker or Billy Meredith, among those on Tom Stevens's ranking).

There are some cases that I consider virtually very complicated to establish a global advantage, especially among those in which it's necessary to choose among a better consistency and a better peak of performance (as I think they can be the cases of Gerd Müller vs. Marco van Basten), so I take licenses on tastes/very personal perceptions or prefer tie them in each case:


01. Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
02. Ferenc Puskás (Hungary)
03. Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)
04. Michel Platini (France)
05. Matthias Sindelar (Austria)
05. Franz Beckenbauer (Germany)
07. Giuseppe Meazza (Italy)
07. Zinedine Zidane (France)
09. Eusébio (Portugal)
10. Gerd Müller (Germany)
10. Marco van Basten (Netherlands)
12. Lothar Matthäus (Germany)
13. Bobby Charlton (England)
14. Paolo Maldini (Italy)
15. Franco Baresi (Italy)
16. Gianluigi Buffon (Italy)
17. György Sárosi (Hungary)
18. Lev Yashin (Soviet Union)
19. Raymond Kopa (France)
19. Gianni Rivera (Italy)
21. George Best (Northern Ireland)
21. Roberto Baggio (Italy)
23. Thierry Henry (France)
24. Ruud Gullit (Netherlands)
25. Luis Suárez (Spain)
26. Stanley Matthews (England)
27. Xavi (Spain)
28. Andrés Iniesta (Spain)
29. Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden)
29. Uwe Seeler (Germany)
31. Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands)
31. Karel Pesek (Czechoslovakia)
33. Ruud Krol (Netherlands)
34. Bobby Moore (England)
35. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany)
35. Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
37. Alan Morton (Scotland)
38. Giacinto Facchetti (Italy)
39. Ricardo Zamora (Spain)
40. Fritz Walter (Germany)
40. Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Sweden)
42. Sándor Kocsis (Hungary)
43. Dino Zoff (Italy)
44. Luís Figo (Portugal)
45. Francisco Gento (Spain)
46. Valentino Mazzola (Italy)
47. József Bozsik (Hungary)
47. Gaetano Scirea (Italy)
49. Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)
50. Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia)


By position:

Goalkeepers

16. Gianluigi Buffon (Italy)
18. Lev Yashin (Soviet Union)
39. Ricardo Zamora (Spain)
43. Dino Zoff (Italy)

Central Defenders

05. Franz Beckenbauer (Germany)
15. Franco Baresi (Italy)
33. Ruud Krol (Netherlands)
34. Bobby Moore (England)
47. Gaetano Scirea (Italy)

Side Defenders

14. Paolo Maldini (Italy)
38. Giacinto Facchetti (Italy)

Defensive Midfielders

31. Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands)
31. Karel Pesek (Czechoslovakia)

Central Midfielders

12. Lothar Matthäus (Germany)
25. Luis Suárez (Spain)
27. Xavi (Spain)
47. József Bozsik (Hungary)

Attacking-Midfielders

04. Michel Platini (France)
07. Zinedine Zidane (France)
13. Bobby Charlton (England)
19. Raymond Kopa (France)
19. Gianni Rivera (Italy)
24. Ruud Gullit (Netherlands)
28. Andrés Iniesta (Spain)
35. Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
40. Fritz Walter (Germany)
46. Valentino Mazzola (Italy)

Wingers

21. George Best (Northern Ireland)
26. Stanley Matthews (England)
37. Alan Morton (Scotland)
44. Luís Figo (Portugal)
45. Francisco Gento (Spain)
50. Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia)

Forwards

01. Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
02. Ferenc Puskás (Hungary)
03. Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)
05. Matthias Sindelar (Austria)
07. Giuseppe Meazza (Italy)
17. György Sárosi (Hungary)
21. Roberto Baggio (Italy)
35. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany)
49. Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)

Strikers

09. Eusébio (Portugal)
10. Gerd Müller (Germany)
10. Marco van Basten (Netherlands)
23. Thierry Henry (France)
29. Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden)
29. Uwe Seeler (Germany)
40. Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Sweden)
42. Sándor Kocsis (Hungary)


By era/generation:

1920-1929

31. Karel Pesek (Czechoslovakia)
37. Alan Morton (Scotland)
39. Ricardo Zamora (Spain)

1930-1939

05. Matthias Sindelar (Austria)
07. Giuseppe Meazza (Italy)

1935-1944

17. György Sárosi (Hungary)

1940-1949

46. Valentino Mazzola (Italy)

1945-1954

26. Stanley Matthews (England)
29. Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden)
40. Fritz Walter (Germany)

1950-1959

02. Ferenc Puskás (Hungary)
19. Raymond Kopa (France)
42. Sándor Kocsis (Hungary)
47. József Bozsik (Hungary)

1955-1964

18. Lev Yashin (Soviet Union)
45. Francisco Gento (Spain)

1960-1969

09. Eusébio (Portugal)
13. Bobby Charlton (England)
19. Gianni Rivera (Italy)
25. Luis Suárez (Spain)
29. Uwe Seeler (Germany)
34. Bobby Moore (England)
38. Giacinto Facchetti (Italy)

1965-1974

05. Franz Beckenbauer (Germany)
10. Gerd Müller (Germany)
21. George Best (Northern Ireland)
50. Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia)

1970-1979

01. Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
33. Ruud Krol (Netherlands)
43. Dino Zoff (Italy)

1975-1984

04. Michel Platini (France)
35. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany)
47. Gaetano Scirea (Italy)

1985-1994

10. Marco van Basten (Netherlands)
12. Lothar Matthäus (Germany)
15. Franco Baresi (Italy)
24. Ruud Gullit (Netherlands)
31. Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands)

1990-1999

14. Paolo Maldini (Italy)
21. Roberto Baggio (Italy)
35. Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
49. Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)

1995-2004

07. Zinedine Zidane (France)
44. Luís Figo (Portugal)

2000-2010

16. Gianluigi Buffon (Italy)
23. Thierry Henry (France)

2005-2014

27. Xavi (Spain)
28. Andrés Iniesta (Spain)
40. Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Sweden)

2010-2019

03. Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)

 

By nationality:

Italy (10)

07. Giuseppe Meazza
14. Paolo Maldini
15. Franco Baresi
16. Gianluigi Buffon
19. Gianni Rivera
21. Roberto Baggio
38. Giacinto Facchetti
43. Dino Zoff
46. Valentino Mazzola
47. Gaetano Scirea

Germany (6)

05. Franz Beckenbauer
10. Gerd Müller
12. Lothar Matthäus
29. Uwe Seeler
35. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
40. Fritz Walter

Netherlands (6)

01. Johan Cruyff
10. Marco van Basten
24. Ruud Gullit
31. Frank Rijkaard
33. Ruud Krol
49. Dennis Bergkamp

Spain (5)

25. Luis Suárez
27. Xavi
28. Andrés Iniesta
39. Ricardo Zamora
45. Francisco Gento

France (4)

04. Michel Platini
07. Zinedine Zidane
19. Raymond Kopa
23. Thierry Henry

Hungary (4)

02. Ferenc Puskás
17. György Sárosi
42. Sándor Kocsis
47. József Bozsik

England (3)

13. Bobby Charlton
26. Stanley Matthews
34. Bobby Moore

Portugal (3)

03. Cristiano Ronaldo
09. Eusébio
44. Luís Figo

Sweden (2)

29. Gunnar Nordahl
40. Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Austria (1)

05. Matthias Sindelar

Czechoslovakia (1)

31. Karel Pesek

Denmark (1)

35. Michael Laudrup

Northern Ireland (1)

21. George Best

Scotland (1)

37. Alan Morton

Soviet Union (1)

18. Lev Yashin

Yugoslavia (1)

50. Dragan Dzajic


Not bad at all for me.

 

Having Matthews above Figo is a very personal perception indeed but for the rest it's interesting. For example, as to think about what the arguments could be from both parts in the cases where, a priori, we don't agree.

For example :
Basten v Müller, is there really a tie?
Rummenigge behind all of them?
Is Zoff not taking the spot of another great field-player? There's also Banks, Maïer, Kahn, Neuer, Casillas (since Zamora is in) that could be in contention for your #4 GK spot, at least for a tie, thus for a spot in the top-50. Schmeichel. And others arguably. This is the question that intrigues me the most btw.

 

Re : French defenders.

Ok, I don't know why I had in mind that it was just about liberos... it's more complicated than that obviously.

Ok so first I did not remember that I had this prepared : the back-lines of my AT French team A, B, C, D and E. 55 players; which leaves some very good players aside (like Trezeguet for example) but for the defenders perhaps it can help me to do my ranking (mixing CB's, FB's...).

First the 5 back-lines of my 5 "super-teams" were (made a couple of months ago only) :

A) Bossis, Blanc, Desailly, Trésor (I was already thinking in tiers more than in best position it seems, trying to mix that question and all the usual criterias to the max)

B) Amoros, Thuram, Jonquet, Lizarazu (this is confirmed)

C) Battiston, Varane, Bosquier, Hernandez

D) Mattler, Herbin, Marche (ok it seems I have a text prepared for blog... in substance, Marche and perhaps most of all Mattler have their "D-team accessit" for a considerable part due to their personality/ the character)

E) J. Djorkaeff, Penverne, Marcel (Penverne has played CH like HB and I found a spot to Marcel in my 55 here as LB like when Jonquet got injured against Brazil)


Some times later...
... my all-time top-30 French defenders (today).

1. Laurent BLANC
2. Marcel DESAILLY
3. Marius TRESOR
4. Maxime BOSSIS
5. Lilian THURAM (in today's footy I'd pick Thuram, but Bossis was great in the centre too and a real chief of defense, though discreet, like Scirea for example)
6. Robert JONQUET, Bernard BOSQUIER, Raphaël VARANE ehehhe, sorry can't choose

Say that it concludes the top of the crop.

9. Manuel AMOROS
10. Bixente LIZARAZU (but it's close with Amoros, just trying to avoid another ex-aequo, they were 3 in this case already)
11. Patrick BATTISTON (a regular of the 'generation Platini' and a legend in his own right in spite of his discretion and belated affirmation as a leader)
12. Lucas HERNANDEZ (he's already World Champion and technically on par with Amoros and Lizarazu. He'll just have more and more experience from now on)
13. Etienne MATTLER (a strong figure, the tough guy with leadership skills)
14. Roger MARCHE (a strong figure too but more reserved. Exemplary by his professionalism though and former recordman of caps)
15. Robert HERBIN (MF/ CB. In spite of the injuries, he makes the top-15 but he's condemned to the 2nd tier vis-à-vis of other liberos/ CH)
16. Armand PENVERNE (half or defender, like Herbin but also as FB, he was a player of class able to defend and to orientate the game like few defensive players knew in the 50s)
17. Jean DJORKAEFF (a figure too, one of the first offensive FB, CB too)
18. Franck LEBOEUF (the back-up for Blanc might have been better than some people remember)
19. Willy SAGNOL (not always perfect defensively but not bad at all and we can't have everything. He must hate ZZ).
20. Vincent CANDELA (his Italian career speaks for himself)
21. William GALLAS (he found his place at Chelsea on the sides of the defense and never lost it. WC runner-up 2006 alongside Thuram in central defense then captain of a certain generation that he has not helped to tame).
22. Gérard JANVION (Les Verts. At his physical peak he could shut down anybody in Europe. FB, DM, CB with less success perhaps then).
23. Jean-Pierre ADAMS (DM or CB, in spite of the average results, he actually formed one of the World's best CB pairing with Trésor. "La garde Noire". His career was on the downill due to injuries in the second half of the 70s. He fell in coma during surgery intervention in '82. He's now 71 years old.
24. Lazare GIANESSI (before this lung infection, this former winger was the inamovible RB of France. Much praised and respected at the time)
25. Christian LOPEZ (this rather complete CB had abnegation and was above all an excellent tackler who covered well his teammates of ASSE, and France where he was more the back-up for Trésor globally)
26. Mustapha ZITOUNI (he was taking the lead ahead of Jonquet since a couple of seasons in D1 and in NT since several months before the Swedish WC, but he has joined the FLN team during this spring '58)
27. Alain ROCHE (formed a good pairing with Ricardo at PSG. France of the first half of the 90s).
28. Basile BOLI ('a goal for eternity')
29. Benjamin PAVARD ! (what a goal! He's a CB or a MF though, not a RB it seems. The time of one tournament, it was OK. Let's see a bit again.)
30. Dominique BATHENAY (a very good libero in club, at PSG, after having been a MF at ASSE, but this dropping from midfield to the back definitively costed him his international career. Although there was also some serious concurrence at midfield too. He has played only once as libero for the NT, in '82, in a pre-WC friendly against Peru : 0-1. His last cap.)


Like Tom Stevens, I think it's wise to say that it's difficult to make tiers but it seems (the exact order taken apart) that the top 8-10, even 11 maybe, must be close to what would be the consensus.
I still don't know who I'd pick if i had the choice between Blanc and Desailly. The quality of Blanc is undeniable but Desailly is maybe more of a rare breed.

Well you can re-rank this now if you want, if not already done.

Others can be :

Marcel Vanco, Lucien Gamblin, Jules Vandooren. Cuissard (more a MF though globally), Staho (CORT), Jordan (Austrian naturalized French), André Lerond (Half or DF), Kaelbel (CH and RB '58), Méxès (exceptional qualities but never fulfilled the expectations, especially in NT where he has too rare good games). Angloma (a winger at the start, and in the end, perhaps in the middle too... "very modern"), Di Meco, Domenech, Baeza (a trio of poets), Wendling (the right back 1959-1963), Ayache, Artelesa, Rostagni, Piumi, Chorda, Chardar, Quittet, Zimny (RB Reims), Rodzik (LB). Bibard (RB mainly), Bieganski, Tylinski, Budzynski, Roger Lemerre (very good), Boumsong, Bourbotte, Goma, Djetou...

About Abidal and Evra, the CL winners. Abidal : a CB who had not the confidence of everybody in spite of quite an apparent potential at the start; then a LB to constitue a solid left flank at Lyon and in NT with Malouda under Domenech. Considerably raised his level in 2006 in the team of Zidane then was signed by Barça in '07 where he almost ended his career after health issues. Played a last season with his first club Monaco, that did not believe in him back then, finishing second without being particularly brilliant individually. The circle was complete anyway. Could be in instead of Bathenay in all honesty, but he's not.
Evra : no. Just no. I just write it as I feel it. Not of fan of them, though I can recognize qualities in Abidal, as a defender (sometimes terribly error-prone with Lyon though, at Barça I don't know, they appreciate him anyway it seems). Don't like his speech since retired, too.

Marcel Domergue, J-F Domergue, Cazenave (Sochaux), Canthelou, Hornus, Montagne, Diagne (played FB and a bit everywhere), Mairesse, Novi (DM or CB), Jodar, Kastendeuch (libero, two assists as FB in NT, not a single red-card in 19 years, a model).
Le Roux, Casoni (makes think of Alfano & Courbis at Toulon). Bracci (LB), Vanucci, Squilacci. Reveillère, Clichy, Sagna, Clerc, Debuchy, Jallet. Escudé & Hon (Spanish League). Laporte, Lenglet (to be seen). Koscielny. Patrice Rio. Léo Specht. Guy & Didier Sénac. Salva (LB), Pleimelding, Hassouna, Sbaïz, Tusseau (LB or MF).
Verlet, Canelle, Capelle, Anatol. Alain Merchadier. Mitoraj. Farison (FB of ASSE). Jules & Victor Zvunka. Franck Silvestre. Cardiet, Jeannol...Curbelo (Uru-Fra)... plentys...
Mendy's, Sidibé, Kurzawa, Kurt Zouma, Zoumana Camara, Kimpembé, Mangala, Ecuele-Manga, Yanga-Mbiwa, Christanval... Déhu (or MF), Prunier, Jurietti... Sakho, Sylvain Distin, Dogon, Gardon... Biancheri, Orlanducci... Cazes, Burkhard...Trémoulinas... Kolodzieczjak...Jéremy Bréchet, Bruno N'Gotty, Antoine Kombouaré... Pilorget (PSG), Vogel (ASM), Kabile & Charles-Alfred (Crocodiles of Nîmes), Maurice Lafont, Huguet... Thouvenel (RB)... Sikora, Wallemme (Lens), Sassus, Pignol, Luc Sonor, Le Dizet... Somerlynck (Lille, 5x French Cup winner, like Roche and Bathenay), Hauss (RCS), Valérien Ismaël, Pascal Baills, Fugier, Colleter, Bosser... Philippe Raschke, Rudy Mater... Hubert Fournier, Franck Dumas, Patrick Blondeau, Rabarivony, Jaurès, Lachor, Alicarte, Chanelet, Chalmé, Grenet (or MF more), Béria ... Armand, Gillet, Grillon, Steck-Brulez, Malcuit. Planus. Conchy. Bonnart. Rami.

...Teddy Bertin... Eric Rabesandratana, Jacques Abardonado. Sébastien Pugrenier, Tacalfred.

 

It just occurs to me than James Harden is simply the Ibrahimovic of the NBA

 

Yeah, you're right that I'm familiar with a lot of his play in that game, but not having watched that video in full yet (and with it being one of the longer ones with I guess replays, touches of team-mates etc included) I'll not comment just yet.

I was looking for one of his early performances with Red Star (vs AC Milan in 1988/89 at home) which I feel was really great, against obviously a top team, but I have a feeling you might be familiar with it anyway and have seen the video I was looking for. Maybe you don't know about this one (a sub appearance vs France in WC qualifying from around that time, in which he sets up two goals):

I think I've posted this one before, but apart from maybe the CL semi-final vs PSG in 94/95, it's a good one that came to mind (it is TV highlights of the whole game not specific Savicevic highlights) to help show how I remembered him (obviously there is the Parma 95/96 one available but I do recall you being familiar at least with the assist, and the 1994 CL Final can be watched in full and there are Savicevic highlights for the Porto game earlier that season I remember...unless they disappeared too) - AC Milan vs Fiorentina 94/95:



Ok, one comment I can add in response to you: yeah, I'd say he had that 'special' kind of quality that not many players have - to do something different and unpredictable, and that on his day he could do it vs any opposition. I know obviously there are questions about regularity of appearances/performances/output but there are some extenuating circumstances in terms of fitness and the era he played in I think. Maybe on Puck's 5 year basis he just about does enough to merit consideration on threads like this - on a shorter term 'best players' basis probably better and with special appreciation of certain games even more I think, but on a longer term career basis (even with the significant moments on the highest stage) not quite so much (so I can understand in a way, given he was really aiming for a good spread between eras too like I never really did myself until the attempt recently on this thread lol, that comme didn't place him high up on his greatest forwards list for example, but I also understand why his name appears in certain (not all) great player books or player of the century lists like the European IFFHS vote albeit quite low down.

 

As we discussed before, Savicevic did give headaches and tactical issues to his managers, but yes I'd have him top 20 of his generation probably.

I feel a five years window is indeed the best way to do it (without totally ignoring longevity as an elite level player). The players who are thought of as longevity players weren't necessarily world class, great influencers or game changers (if healthy) for the same number of years. If we just take kicker here: Matthaus his window is 1986 to 1991 (or: 1988 to 1994 when he was a candidate for #1 at a key position of the team if healthy). It certainly isn't the full 20 years; the world class designation for summer 1999 feels like a lifetime achievement recognition, if you see the various big howlers (for example both Manchester United games) he made around that time (passing the ball directly to the opponent's feet etc.). At best, the best case scenario, the window is 1986 to 1994. Same goes for G. Müller, going by kicker his window (if healthy) was six or seven years as best in his job, of his country.

With longevity factored in though, I struggle to see how Baresi ends up ahead of Gullit (no complaints about Matthaus going higher). Gullit was an elite level player before and after Baresi his window (Gullit's 1995-96 season very arguably better as the 35-36 years old Baresi). In the games Gullit fielded himself in 1996-97, he *definitely* was better than Baresi in the same season.

For ability, upward influence on the teams, there can be only one winner and in trophies Baresi isn't even really ahead. 13 major trophies vs 11 major trophies by my count; Baresi's extra Champions League (where he missed the final) compensated by Gullit's euro trophy. Gullit was a half-decent (if not great) libero too. Gullit is one of the few players to receive Ballon points for four different teams; player of the year candidate for five different sides in three leagues.

 

In fairness, I can imagine Sergio Ramos is not the easiest partner to play with (despite the qualities Ramos has as well) and to be in-and-out of the team previously is not helpful. As mentioned, Varane came in the team during the 2016-17 season, and he 'immediately' conceded a clumsy penalty against an overaged and half-crippled Fernando Torres in the CL semis... (scene also shown in the video)... Looked rusty.

 

Here are a few of my problems (I can explain each of them):

- Italy 10 inclusions and Germany 6 inclusions? Already said something about the nature of Italy's continental successes (also Germany had unheralded foreigners as Torstensson to help them, with 10 goals in 21 games but it's not the same). How many top-of-their-generation players do they really have? The all-time Elo rank (since 1965) of Germany is 2nd, Italy is 4th or 5th (behind Netherlands!). Italy is not that often in a group of death (2008, 2014). On a per capita base, then yes, Italy does the better job.

- Baresi above Gullit? Hell no. Almost all the lists agree with me (btw: 80% of the lists have MvB above Muller too). My take, including something on the influence.

- Henry and Bergkamp should be far closer to each other. Hint. I wouldn't reverse them like FourFourTwo did in 2008 and 2017, but they should be close.

- What do we know about Pesek? What is the factual evidence? He's 16 places better than Bozsik?

- Laudrup above Iniesta?

- Suarez Miramontes above Xavi? Don't think so. On the flipside: Suarez has maybe a case vs Rivera?

- I'm somewhat of a sceptic on Morton, V. Mazzola, Walter.

- In my mind the likes of Charlton, Rivera, Seeler, Baggio, Nordahl are potentially too high.

- Ibrahimovic instead of Modric or Robben? This isn't too bad because you're far from the only one who rates Ibra really high. Again: KHR as many world class ratings as Robben and you can question what he did at the advanced stages and/or big teams. Modric really influential for Real Madrid.

- Still far from convinced Krol is ahead of Koeman. Notice here Koeman is actually one of the few legendary defenders to win two Champions Leagues without super legendary attackers to help him. 'Voetbal International' in 2018 agrees with me (Koeman 9th, Krol 20th of his country).

- I would judge the period before television separately. Whether two of the 1930s are top 10 all-timers is purely guesswork and random.


There are a few more things, and I know it's difficult, but some things are glaring errors to me.

 

Yeah, makes sense I think as a kind of balanced approach between short term and long.

 

Just for interest, here are the unlucky 13 not in my list compared to the unlucky 13 not in yours that were in mine, based on my previous uncertain attempt at splitting things evenly between eras, adjusted by removing the pre-1920 players and inserting the next 6 in line.

I'd probably be strongly considering, given trying to achieve some sort of balance by position/role too, taking Hagi out and putting Rijkaard in anyway which would reduce the differences to 12. My attempt was influenced by what I'd previously done re: peterhrt's idea on the other thread, and Tom's allocation between different eras which I tried to match (among the 100 at least; not exactly among the top 50 I assume). Maybe interesting to see which players aren't unanimously in both of our attempts anyway!

(Your pick on the left, mine on the right)
Pesek-Bican
Morton-Piola
V.Mazzola-Kubala
Nordahl-Fontaine
Walter-Hidegkuti
Bozsik-Liedholm
Gento-Finney
Suarez-Deyna
Seeler-Rensenbrink
Facchetti-Neeskens
Zoff-Banks
Rijkaard-Hagi
Ibrahimovic-Dalglish

 

Before I log off for today:

Example of what I mean here (the mentioned 1986 - 1994 window as #1 candidate/option in his position if healthy):
https://footballia.net/matches/bayern-munchen-borussia-dortmund-bundesliga-1995-1996

There is a statistic shown around the 40 minute mark in the 2nd half, saying Sammer went in opponents half 28 times and Matthaus only four times (his team won, and had the better chances).

Sammer was good around that time (no ESM team of the month selection though; he received 8 votes, behind 9 other central defenders) but think you understand what I mean. IIRC you made such comment yourself.

In fairness, Matthaus does have a good assist this match at 38:40 (the commentator says it was his first "first and only" truly good pass of the match.. at 40:00) but both give the impression they're box-to-box midfielders playing in defense! Quite a few mis-timings in interceptions, or a couple mis-timed sliding tackles, and I don't exaggerate really. Examples, 9:50 to 10:30 in the video mark of the first half; 3:00 in the second half video. One goal and four assists in the season, average grade of 3.05.

That does not take away I'd have him top three (top five at worst) of his generation based on that window, but think you see what I mean. I'll log off now for the day.

 

Here he's playing as a defender too, and I made notes of this:



He builds up the goal for 1-0 at 20:00. Also various other good scenes like 35:00 (the volley clearance) or composed processions like at 2:05 (he has many of those after about 8 minutes in the Tottenham video until he subs himself off, many progressive one touch passes). The long pass at 6:00 (see replay), playing out at 21:20.

There are one or two minor slips (5:10; 21:45 - of course this is not easy in England, like Guardiola commented too, and it is easier to do with better team-mates and if the onus to create goals isn't 'only' on you) but otherwise a good display, and the positive influence on Chelsea over two seasons was there. From a mid-table 11th place to top six place, where they remained ever since (with the exception of 2015-16).

Textbook piece of defending at 3:20. One vs one defending at 10:30, clearance 16:15 (among others), interception (among others) 17:00.

On Ruud Gullit’s birthday, the perfect opportunity to remember one of the most under-appreciated assists of the 90s.

What a fucking pass. pic.twitter.com/3tWSoLOgL4

— A Funny Old Game (@sid_lambert) September 1, 2019

For more stuff and examples:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-games-of-the-best-players.2071047/page-21#post-38077995
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-games-of-the-best-players.2071047/page-21#post-38089900



The passes at 18:35; even better 26:45

 

Quite correct he is. Cristiano would be my #1 or #2 European (I'll be silent about his BdO ranking the past few years, though - Juventus has somewhat regressed so far since he joined and he does literally zero without ball).