Coaching Philosophies and the Gregg Berhalter System

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Yes, absolutely. We made it to the Finals of the Gold Cup. Costa Rica is talented but aging, and while I can see people being unsure about that one, Honduras didn't even make it out of the Gold Cup Group Stage, finishing LAST and behind two teams we subsequently beat.
     
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    you're trading in a false argument still. you're trying to salvage "big club" by making it into "big club and playing." i hate to break it to you but if we truly limit what "big club" means to what it really does, and truly require minutes, you start talking about an extremely short list of players ever in US history. howard, friedel, donovan, dempsey, pulisic. maybe a couple others.

    thing being, most of them were mid-career transfers over. cherry picked. if they were tried as youths pulisic is the exception in ever playing at all. so you're like, don't count them, they didn't play. well how many ever do????? very few. the exception then eats the rule.

    brooks, yedlin, and some of the others are not actually at big clubs. they are midtable or worse, sometimes relegation fighters. their fans try to finesse the big club definition but the reality is the further you slide down the less distinction that team has from MLS or whatnot, and the more likely someone like Adams could go straight from here individually to there. because we don't field "Bayern," or "Leipzig," we field "adams." and before adams was leipzig he was RBNY. he has done fine for both.

    i would grant your average minute taker for liverpool is probably above us. we also have none. it is an attempted theoretical difference with no practical application here. we instead generally have workhorses for midtable teams. ok, is the start for RBNY better or worse than the guy for wolfsburg? based on history and stats, opposite of what the snobs would think. but it should be no surprise really given where adams slid over from the same team. if long had moved to west ham oh the cognitive dissonance it would have caused.
     
  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Why don’t you reread what I wrote as I never wrote either “big club” or “big club with minutes”.

    Major league = big 4 plus a few superclubs at lower leagues (Ajax, Celtic of yore).

    Please point out the historical US players who played meaningful minutes in the major leagues (Big 4, if you’re following) and didn’t start for the USMNT.

    I’ll wait.
     
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    to underline the theoretical flaws here, adams and yedlin were MLS before they were yanks abroad. yedlin in particular since he has been gone a while and has some theoretical resume candy around, gets treated like an english star. but the reality is he has defensive flaws in his game, and spurs let him on the field once. he then dropped down to relegation type teams. so his snob fans want to play the card but is this in some ways still a seattle sounder? in which case how is he any better on paper than the next guy? because he's on 14th place newcastle?

    you know who looks better? the guy on marginal MLS playoff team FCD.

    ditto the ever injured john brooks. the guy from NYRB actually plays defense.

    hmmm.

    i don't think this holds up as well on offense. but i think there is better foreign talent on offense. my point would be pick the talent and not the club affiliation. it is not consistently useful or accurate as a heuristic or proxy.
     
  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Respectfully, I strongly disagree that there isn’t too much MLS favoritism. Look at the non-Cupcake pools under Berhalter and the ratio of MLS to others and it’s strikingly obvious. We continue to bring in players that are subpar (FWIW, I think Zardes has a place in our team) for multiple looks and caps but don’t even look at other alternatives that can’t be much worse.

    Our pool is not and should not be be one where 2/3 of the roster is from MLS and we certainly shouldn’t have 2 Crew players in our starting spine.
     
  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Still waiting for a response to my post #2226.

    Btw, midtable major leagues is significantly better than MLS/B2/Championship.
     
  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I don't have to accept your framework. Your whole game here is to discard the guys off the big clubs like cooper and olosunde who don't see playing time. But this is a false framework as it basically allows you to dispose of the counter-evidence. And it ignores that few if any US players who start out abroad break into elite squads. Landon barely saw the field for Bayer.

    Oh, midcareer they might come back a decade later and be red carpet treated. But what does that say about MLS vs big club and acting like it means something.

    "Major leagues" is misleading because I think plenty of MLS guys could and have handled playing in relegation type teams abroad. The distinction at that point is vanishingly thin between teams, and unscientific between players. Adams can go from NYRB to top 3 in B.1.

    You're trying to play word games. Substitute "major leagues" for "big clubs." I only believe "big club" starters are likely to be inherently better than MLS. We have no big club starters in USA. So what you're trying to do is pretend Wolfsburg is better than NYRB when a guy can go from NYRB to a team above Wolfsburg in the standings, and start.

    You're ignoring my argument that no one starts for the elite that set them apart, and instead trying to salvage your arguments with word games. The problem being once we slide down these major leagues far enough it is a useless distinction between the leagues. At least in terms of science.

    You're also in a way hiding behind the work permit rules and international player rules which deny us the ability to saturate the leagues in bulk with players. I think if anyone could go abroad then we would have more players in England and Germany and Italy than now. At which point the argument waters down to nothing. OK, so if these players might all be equivalent, why am I treating one as inherently better just because he was the lucky one in the passport lottery, and the next guy couldn't get permitted???? We can't all be Latvian too.

    False effing premise.
     
  8. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Players, not labels or categories. Players, not labels or categories. Players, not labels or categories.

    Say that to yourself 500 times until it begins to sink in.

    Fortunately, RB Leipzig and Fortuna totally do not give a crap about your labels.
     
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  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i don't have to play your games.

    "major leagues" is too broad to prove anything eg Yedlin was at Seattle and then later on Newcastle.

    as i have said 20 times, the demonstrable argument would be at the big club level.

    thing being, we have few players who finished top 3 in one of your major leagues last season. ie big clubs.

    in saying, woah, let's instead broaden this out to the whole league, and then assume it's better, you're assuming your premise/conclusion right there. poor logic. the question is, can we definitively say that a player on the 17th best team in england, anyone first team, is better than the best player on a MLS team? no. and that's what matters for NT selection.

    i think we might be able to say that at the very top. the level where pulisic has to get bench time at dortmund. but there are so few players at that level they couldn't have a poker game. so you water down your theory. but watered down enough MLS is just as good.
     
  10. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Still waiting for you to acknowledge that what you said simply isn’t true.

    Kenny cooper:

    1.didn’t play at ManU
    2. Didn’t get called in for a cap because he was at ManU
    3. Was actually playing in MLS when he was called in

    Take the L.
     
  11. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    do you understand how absurd it is to hold up european club names for people who were in mls last season? it makes my point for me. last year their bona fides were MLS. now they are apparently snob proof. basically shows your argument means nothing.
     
  12. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    A year ago Sara didn't know what he was doing, but at least he kinda had an idea of what the point was: Blood the kids, have a teeny bit of glue guy in there that won't stifle the natural development of leaders, utilize friendlies to give the kids experience, don't make things too confusing.

    He didn't get all the call ups right (Trapp again, and some other guys like Morales weren't called in), and he rarely got tactics right, he was nearly outcoached in every match, but at the end of the day, he didn't stifle players, or retard development in any particular way beyond just not being a good coach. He was a flat liner, they got nothing out of it, beyond getting familiar and some experience, but he also didn't hurt them.

    Now it's a nightmare, the call ups are wrong, the first XI's are wrong, the tatics are wrong and inflexible, the experiences are negative, rather than periodically refreshing, or flat. It's just astonishing how bad it is/was. I wasn't for the hire, mostly because he has no cv worth a damn, and there were countless legit coaches available after WC '18, and we halted development and integration for 9 months for the pleasure of landing a coach that wasn't as good as literally ANY of the coaches at the World Cup, or even many who failed to qualify.

    Why.
    why?
    why?

    I can't understand it, which almost makes me wonder if Ernie is a moron (didn't seem like it in the Netherlands), or if this was a forced hire from day one (which it does feel like). That was the rumor for whatever reason and Berhalter was so damn stubborn, he wouldn't quit to take over the team, and put us in this crap position in March of 2019 rather than September.
     
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  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i don't have to prove the point with kenny cooper for it to be true

    i still think he proves my point that big club doesn;t matter

    you're twisting the argument around to avoid the truth, not to show your actual argument, which is big club stamp of approval is supposed to be everything

    you want to ignore that kenny cooper never played, so he doesn;t count against your big club argument

    my point is a long history of washouts who had big club names on their resumes and didn't do much for the NT.

    eg
    danny karbassiyoon (sp)
    gideon zelalem
    matthew olosunde

    with somewhat more production

    freddy adu

    your game is say, "but he didn't play." which is essentially conceding that the pertinent, distinguishing feature is a lot of playing time for an elite club. you then ignore how few americans have ever met that standard. the ones who do are already NT studs. it's a weak, self selected argument.

    yeah, if we had a bunch of players on top clubs we would be awesome. the whole point is no one much meets your criteria which means we have to pick a side in THE REAL EFFING WORLD. WHERE MAYBE AN MLS ALL STAR IS AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN A 14TH PLACE FINISHER IN B.1. OR EPL.
     
  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Does this help: the players at a major league club (A) are by and large significant better than those in minor leagues (B). Note, there are a select number of players in (B) who can step into (A) but the rule holds. Why is it that only MLS fans argue this point but no one does so for B2/Championship players?

    You can use the following to replace A and B

    1. (A) in the NBA (B) in European basketball or in NCAA basketball.
    2. (A) in the NFL (B) in the CFL or in NCAA football
    3. (A) in MLB (B) in asian or Latin America pro leagues or in AAA/AA/A or NCAA baseball
    4. (A) in the NHL (B) in European/Russian hockey leagues, minor league North American hockey or NCAA hockey.

    The point isn’t that all major leaguers are always better but there’s a profile of emerging up-and-coming minor leaguers (like Adams and Steffen) that have the potential to play at a higher level (just like the examples in 1-4).

    Maybe you can read this 500 times to see if you can understand it.
     
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  15. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess the question is did Berhalter treat the game as a real game or a glorified training exercise?

    I know SUM wanted Mexico to put 50k people in MetLife, but wow. If you want a glorified scrimmage, DO NOT schedule it against your arch-rival. Particularly an arch-rival that just won a trophy over us two months ago and has the coach many fans (myself included) are furious that USSF didn’t even bother interviewing.

    If that was the case, then bring some decent Asian team to Kansas City, Columbus, or Salt Lake City and avoid the inevitable frustration that getting pasted by Mexico in front of 40,000 El Tri fans would bring.
     
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  16. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Agree whole heartedly. I think the problem may be that we've seen us play it before. In 2002 against the Netherlands and several other teams in the run up to the Cup, against Portugal for a half, against S. Korea for a half, against Mexico, against Germany. That team was capable of playing attractive soccer and had the flexibility to play in many different styles, same as '03 team that had injuries derail it in the Confed Cup. The '09-'10 could at times as well. Other than that, not so much.

    It is ridiculous and stupid. The USMNT that can play a more attacking and possession oriented team is 2-3 years away WITH COMPETENT COACHING and with health and continued development of young players. The strengths of our '17 and '19 youth teams, and even to some degree the '21's are a good chunk in the midfield and a touch at forward. They should be flowing into the senior team now, and faster over the next 2-3 years. They aren't here now unless we want to take our lumps and Berhalter seems to want to have it both ways, he wants to go w/vets and mls'ers and make the teenagers earn it, despite the fact that the vets flat out can't play his style of play period against competition of any quality whatsoever (and I think the Gold Cup emphasized this, along with the tune ups before it). Consider how horrific they were against a bad Venezuela team, mediocre Jamaica team, middling Group stage opponents save T&T (ironically, maybe they thought showing up for that match was a must after the abomination from two years ago), then they fall apart in the knockouts and play awful repeatedly again. They can't play well at home against most Carribean, and Central American sides, and bad CONMEBOL sides. In what world is his preferred, mostly vets and MLS'ers and a sprinkling of youth going to be good enough for the hex? Or worse yet, the rest of the world?

    It's just insane he doesn't see this. He just is a horse w/blinders and can't see anything other than his preferred style of play and "his guys".
     
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  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I never said that an MLS all-star couldn’t play at a higher level - in fact, I’ve said that that’s the profile of young up-and-comers who should get a shot to see if they can play at a faster/higher level.

    However, the guys who play at midtable major leagues clubs have proven that they can compete at the higher faster level because we can see them play vs. even the elite teams. Doesn’t mean that they’re good enough to be a top 30 squad but if they can’t handle it, there is stiff competition for that spot that doesnt compare to what exists in the minors.

    Why is it so hard for you to simply say’”I was wrong about what I said about the USMNT historically and specifically wrong about Kenny Cooper”?
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    again, i said this a few weeks ago, a midtable or relegation survivor TEAM in EPL or B.1 would beat MLS. but we do not pick a whole team for the NT. we pick players. players within a team can vary. players can serve a purpose to their club team that doesn't work for the NT. players can get away with weaknesses at club exposed in NT play.

    my argument is that only the sort of player starting for a team at the top of an elite league at the end of the season, would likely be so good relative to the next guy, that their club status would definitively say something. for everyone else, once you slide down the elite league food chain, i don't buy that our best are inherently worse than their average team's average player. i would think adams put that dumb argument to rest. the right guy from here can go from top of our league to top of theirs. at which point all these theories of club snobbery mean nothing because in theory a MLS all star might handle this level you act like is definitively beyond us.

    having turned that into a muddle, the proper response is to evaluate the players based on NT performance where they are on the same field with the same players against the same opponents. that is objective. all this club theory bs is subjective wish fulfillment that adams put to bed last year.
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You’re right. Because a small number of minor league players can immediately play in the majors, it means that the average major leaguer isn’t much better than almost all minors. I guess that the NFL isn’t better than college football because seqoun Barkley had a great season last year as a rookie. It’s all the same. SMH
     
  20. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Guys, just pm it, the rest of us can tell what you're arguing about, and which side both of you fall into even if you don't. This is a thread for roasting Beerholder like a Chicken on a spit, not exclusively for shredding the MLS for forcing crap players into our pool and XI's, or Lurch for failing to live up to his ManU developmental prospect hype 12 years ago. :D
     
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  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    whether a mls all star could be a star/further honed by presence in a league doesn't mean that league as a whole is at such a higher level each and every player there is inherently better than the next one. which has to be true for the club snob argument to hold.

    the fact that, say, dempsey can go from MLS all star to best player on fulham suggests the gap is not that great. and if you were honest with yourself probably suggests plenty of dempsey's leaguemates could come over and play for fulham too. if the work permit rules allowed it. at a point of enough saturation then why am i assuming a player there is better than here?

    there are plenty of kei kamara/espinoza type guys who went from solid pros here to solid pros there. i buy on average their elite are better than our elite but we pick from lower in the deck where such distinctions start to fall apart.
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    it is a fair argument because we are still seeing players like morales and dest sliding right into starting chances that seem to have a lot to do with where they play as opposed to HOW they play.

    and that is berhalter's choice.
     
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  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i never said a small number of players can slide over. my argument is the opposite. the numbers are only kept down by passport/permit rules. isn't what the snobs want in MLS that we drop our international and salary rules? why? because if you did that here (and elsewhere) people would fly all over the place for work. depending how much we spent we might have barely any MLS players starting from the US.

    this is not college vs pro. this is epl vs e-championship vs mls vs b2 vs b1 vs eredivisie vs turkey vs mx vs etc........and what if the guy in the "lesser" league is an all star and the guy in the big league rides the bench? your own "discounting" of such bench players suggests the differences begin to disappear.
     
  24. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    why not make the argument for Championship to EPL or B2 to B1? What are the work permit issues preventing US players going to Germany btw.

    Still waiting on you to acknowledge what you said about the USMNT historically and specifically Kenny Cooper was wrong......
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    fair enough. I'll move any responses to another thread. my bad.
     

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