Saturday 24 Aug 2019

But does that mean you don't regard Girona or Club Atlético Torque as local clubs (they both belong to CFG)?

 

According to the SB Nation article, Paulson blamed the TA’s silence for losing the match. Also, the SB Nation had an error...it said Bedoya specifically favored gun control is his goal celebration, but he did not.

Still trying to wrap my head around the fact that using an anti-Nazi symbol makes some fans uncomfortable. I doubt
MLS has a significant pro-Nazi fan base.

 

Metro fans would disagree that the RB affiliation makes it one of the haves, given that the team's payroll is tiny and the most prominent moves within the RB network involved us losing our best player to Leipzig and best-ever coach to Salzburg.

 

wtf did I just read?

 

The banner does not make me uncomfortable. The mindset of the protesters is what makes me uncomfortable. The fight should be for broad and inclusive free speech for all at MLS games, not a parochial right to wave a specific banner, especially when the specific banner seems unnecessary considering, as you point out, the lack of a significant pro-Nazi fan base anywhere in the league.

 

People who are against racism and fascism make you uncomfortable.

Good to know.

 

You (once again) deliberately misconstrue my post. You seem to have no interest in an honest discussion. And you scurrilously imply that somehow I am racist or fascist because I urge free speech for all.

Being anti-fascist is not the same thing as being liberal. Until you can understand that you will continue to make false and outrageous assumptions about people who disagree with you in good faith who are neither racist nor fascist.

I'm done discussing this with you. You are on ignore.

 

You're being unfair, @superdave. He wants pro-racism and fascism banners too. This is why you are going on ignore.

 

Your'e on ignore, as well, for the same reason.

 

Its sad. This is where we have come. If you believe in free speech for everyone, even those you don't agree with (which is what FREE SPEECH means) you are called names. That is all they can argue. If you disagree with them...names.
Childish.

 

Oh come on Dave. This is way beneath you.

 

That's why I refuse to be part of these kind of discussions. Arguments are distorted and both parties always rely on extremism to make their point.

Have fun guys.

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports...-beating-timbers-to-claim-cascadia-cup/?amp=1

The Seattle Times article above has a photo of a rainbow flag that was draped at the Timbers Army side of the stadium. It had the statement “THIS FLAG IS POLITICAL” written across the front.

See, this is where the issue begins. I agree with the statement that the rainbow flag is political. And if MLS is going to allow and even celebrate the rainbow flag, it’s difficult to justify excluding other flags and signs on the basis that they’re “political.”

Rather than allowing all such displays, MLS should disallow all of that. The stadium is the place to show support for a city, team, and players. Fans should not be inundated with statements about fascism, socialism, abortion, homosexuality, guns, etc.

 

Churchill said communism and fascism reminded him “of the North Pole and the South Pole. They are at opposite ends of the earth, but if you woke up at either Pole tomorrow morning you could not tell which one it was. Perhaps there might be more penguins at one, or more Polar bears at the other; but all around would be ice and snow and the blast of a biting wind.”

 

I'd like to add a little bit of context for those who haven't been following what's been going on in the league or nation closely.

It should be noted that last night's actions were as much a protest of the league policy banning the iron front symbol and the arbitrary use of the word "political" as it was a response to two incidents of white supremacists assaulting and threatening MLS fans and a player's family in the past couple of weeks in Seattle and Portland which happened as a direct result of the ban.

In Seattle the same day as the El Paso shooting, white supremacists carrying guns showed up at a pregame gathering at Fuel, the bar where the Emerald City Supporters go on match days and they unsuccessfully tried to gain access. They then harassed people on the March to the Match and assaulted a man while shooting video of the assault and posting it to Youtube. This only happened because an local alt-right protagonist wrote an article about the ban which brought his minions to the game to cause trouble.

My reason for bringing attention to our being blatantly antifascist since day one is to reinforce that we have zero violence issues due to it. Only when MLS pushed the Cascadian FOs to enforce the ban & a right wing blogger writes a piece on it, does a extremist attack a SSFC fan

— Kevin Zelko (@Msbeervendor) August 24, 2019

Been a Sounders supporter since1974 and never once saw white nationalists show up until today. Thanks @MLS for making my match day unsafe. Anti-racist.Anti-Fascist.Always Seattle.

— Lenny Laymon (@Sounders74) August 5, 2019

My son and I went to the stadium and witnessed it. Then he told me he didn’t feel safe so we turned around, got in the car, and watch the game from home. Thanks @mls, @soundersfc

— Frank Novak (@frankjnovak) August 5, 2019

Then in Portland the family of Timbers player Andres Flores was threatened:

PLAYERS are getting harassed by neo-Nazis on the streets of PDX, while @mls bans fans for opposing neo-Nazis. @thesoccerdon: if you don’t care about alienating your fan base, will you care when you’re also losing players? We hold the ↙️↙️↙️ for them, too. #AUnitedFront https://t.co/mkq5F8n1ho

— Leftist Cassandra (@ScrambledMeggs) August 17, 2019

So the takeaway here is that before the ban on the Iron Front while there had been incidents involving NYCFC, we out here in Cascadia had not had a problem with white supremacists showing up at matches of threatening players families. Despite the Pacific Northwest long being the home to several murderous white supremacist hate groups they had no interest in showing up at MLS games until this ban That's no coincidence, the ban itself was a dogwhistle for some of the worst types of people in the world whether MLS intended that or not, that was the effect.

So hopefully that gives a broader context to what's been going on and why last night happened.

 

Bigger than a rivalry. We stand together against fascism and racism. #RCTID pic.twitter.com/vpMCF7qlZv

— Portland Timbers (@TimbersFC) August 24, 2019

The banners are probably too small to read, but they literally say that.

 

I appreciate the concerns people have about seeing or hearing others making political statements during a sporting event. Nobody wants to be subjected to politics on an enjoyable night out. Unfortunately, mass shootings against people doing what should be routine and enjoyable things spurred this recent crackdown/backlash by MLS after Alejandro Bedoya made his impromptu statement a couple of weeks ago during a game.

To me, hate speech should not be covered by free speech. The racist chants that people of that persuasion use means someone doesn't like the way another person looks, and it's not enough that they can choose not to associate with such people. They think it's incumbent on them to make the lives miserable of the minority population. If you can't accept someone because of their skin tone, then you're probably not going to like someone who speaks a different language or the language you might be familiar with, with an accent that tell you they're not native-born. You won't like what their religious persuasion is, if they associate with a particular faith. If you subscribe to the theory that marijuana is a gateway drug for more dangerous drugs, you could argue that racism (and fascism is a conjoined twin to it) is the gateway to more hateful and violent behavior against people of the same race or religion who don't follow your particular political views.

I appreciate the fact that many won't agree with me, and that's fine. I'm sort of the lone wolf in my family on this subject. Because of my stance, it is believed that I'm betraying the Caucasian race. Que sera, sera, I guess.

 

The issue isn’t signs that say, I dunno, “Anyone But Trump 2020.” It is literally signs against Nazis, Fascists and racists. If that’s not an overwhelmingly majority sentiment in the US right now, if people like Gagliardi interpret it as political (and maybe he’s right and I’m wrong!) then we have an existential crisis in the US right now, and everything is a political battleground. Network TV is one, the NFL is one, MLS is one, the VMAs are one, everything. If Don is right and I’m wrong, then thank Christ for MLS supporters groups that are fighting for American values, and for those of you on the sidelines, read Revelation 3:16.

 

That's all good. I am sure MLS totally supports that. Thei problem is, how can you support that without supporting the other side of the spectrum wile at the same time you try to act neutral.

I, like many people I guess, go through a lot of sh*t all week, then comes saturday and I want to sit and relax and support. I am sure that's what MLS is trying to do.

 

I don’t think MLS should be neutral about yelling “********” at keepers. It shouldn’t support the “other side” on the question of (ti pick an example of something that happens in Europe) fans making monkey noises at black players.

I’m on Don’s ignore list so he won’t be able to respond, but maybe you or Bill could help me out. I’m taking it for granted that you guys agree that being against racism isn’t some controversial issue like gun control, but instead a (close enough to) universal American value like freedom of religion. I’ve never seen anyone arguing with me on this issue say something that makes me think we aren’t all on the the same side here.

If that’s the case, how is being against racism and against fascism something that makes people uncomfortable at an MLS game? That, right there, is where I’m sincerely lost. To me, if being anti-fascist is controversial and not a universal American value, we’re in really awful shape and in a full blown crisis, and everyone really does need to pick a side and fight for America. To me, there’s a contradiction between “anti-racism and anti-fascism is controversial and makes me uncomfortable at an MLS match” and “let me just enjoy my silly little distraction of 22 grown men trying to kick a ball.” If you agree with the first part, there’s something very wrong with you if you buy the 2nd part.

One last thing...remember a few years back when SJ Ultras were causing problems? Does anyone recall what Gagliardi said about that?

 

I get what you're saying. I've never been to an MLS game, and I haven't been to any pro sporting event in a while, but it can be pretty uncomfortable when a couple of nearby fans get into a discussion/argument/shouting match about something that has nothing to do with the game at hand.

MLS and to a lesser extent, the NBA have been pretty outspoken about being a league that welcomes all kinds of fans to its games, and bullies need not apply. The last thing a racist/fascist wants to see is a diverse and inclusive society, which is what all pro sports franchises want to build on, and as a league, I think MLS leads the 5 major sports in this regard, or is at least trying to be ahead of the pack.

 

Again, I am with you. However, you are accusing MLS as an institution. Because they refuse to open supoort what you said they are being targets. What would you expect with what? your argument of a one time situation seems clear, allow your anti-facism argument. However, it is not Dom at every gate at every stadium. People's criteria is involved. In summary, it's not black or white, it's hard.

What exactly should MLS (Don) do? which would be the written rule you would write?