Post-match: USA vs Mexico Gold Cup final 7/7/19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by tomásbernal, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who's man was 2saints?
     
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  2. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #552 thedukeofsoccer, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
    I made no advocacy that they play in MLS as you seemed to imply. I actually did the opposite and I personally would make the move, as most would given the opportunity. I'm just not going to write them off blindly because they didn't out of empiricism, empathy, and long-term thinking.

    We saw the selection approach that works the best under Arena during his first tenure and Bob in his only one. Klinsmann decimated the pool and the subsequent managers haven't built it back up properly because they've had loyalties to players, conflicts of interest, and general incompetence.

    I don't want to keep going in circles due to extreme background biases in either direction to create more problems in trying to solve them. Just evaluate players individually. It's not that hard. If a manager isn't capable of that they aren't fit for the job.
     
  3. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look - I hated JK for creating divisions between European (German) based players and dual citizens and the MLS group .... it was not productive at all ....

    but he made a point re: Donovan and that was about striving to be the best.

    I give full credit to Sargent and Weah and Soto and others that are competing in the crucible that is European professional football.

    Sorry but I just count it as much higher on the pecking order than a MLS based player .... and I know we need MLS to be successful ....

    I cannot count how many hours of live and taped footage of Altidore in Holland and Spain and at Sunderland and after all that he just was not good enough and comes back to the US and we are still depending upon him.

    It is a travesty ....

    I would rather give these utes a chance to shine. One of them might actually be like Pulisic or Adams or Donovan (who was an unproven entity when he was thrown on the Nats field at a younger age) .....

    by the way - I agree with you.
     
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  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fantastic analysis which shows why it is important to put individual plays in their proper context.

    There are no viable modern schemes that would require a CM that makes an aggressive challenge at mid-field to chase after, catch, and defend the same player in the box. There is zero chance of doing that after spending 70+ minutes trying to play 2 roles while simultaneously covering for a weak CM partner.

    Adams might have saved himself a ton of criticism by staying away to rehab his groin. Imagine the flack he would have gotten by trying to simultaneously play the Cannon v Pizarro role while also playing the MB90 bodyguard role?
     
  5. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have only one wish for Christmas folks ...

    I want to see Pulisic, Adams, and McKennie all playing together for one meaningful match .....

    oh and with Adams NOT playing RB
     
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  6. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stop that nonsense. Klinsmann did not decimate the pool. Klinsmann called up and played over 80 different players per cycle. Any non-youth player that are in the pool was called and played by Klinsmann.

    Anyone who was not (ie Roldan) is clearly below the Rolstan line as we have seen when facing top tier CONCACAF opponents never mind WC quality foes.

    3 years after his firing it is now quite clear that Klinsmann did not miss anyone worth discussing!
     
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  7. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Nevertheless, with VAR, there is no question that the VAR saw it. If you don't think that WC19 was called tighter - that stuff was called that *never* would have been called w/o it, then I'm saying you didn't actually watch the tournament.
     
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  8. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not that neither of them will be in the midfield in 2019. I hope Bradley sees the field one more time for a send off. I hope Berhalter changes up his plan and goes Adams at the 6. I think it's likely that we see one or the other in 2019. Let me share @rgli13 original quote from whence this discussion stems:

    "we could have a midfield of adams/mckennie/pulisic. but we will never see that midfield. not even once."

    He doesn't indicate "in 2019". He doesn't indicate "in 2020". He says "we will never see that midfield. not even once."

    I think that's a preposterous position. Just as preposterous as Michael frickin Bradley starting in the next World Cup.
     
  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I figured. I’m less interested in the OP’s hyperbole / your rebuttal.

    I am interested in your measured thoughts on if we see a Trapp/Bradley-less midfield this year. I’m hopeful but I wish I was confident.
     
  10. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep. Everyone is talking about the defense playing well, but the CD were parking themselves at the top of the goal box for a lot of the second half. Need to step out and cover the space being opened up...
     
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  11. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well happy Hanukkah to you and yours in advance.
     
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  12. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    first off, i apologize for this hot mess of a post. im not a stats/organized/chart making guy. but heres some stuff-
    __________________________________

    starters in champions league teams
    __________________________________

    pulisic- dortmund/chelsea
    adams- rb leipzig
    mckennie- shalke
    horvath- brugge
    saief- anderlect
    gall- malmo


    non-starters on cl teams
    ____________________________________

    hamid- midtjylland
    weah- psg, lille


    owned by cl teams
    ____________________________________

    steffen- man city
    miazga- chelsea
    palmer-brown- man city
    carter-vickers- spurs
    dest- ajax
    ledesma- psv eindhoven
    taitague- shalke
    parks- benfica
    akale- villareal


    europa league teams
    _____________________________________

    johnson- m'bladbach/hoffenheim
    brooks- herta/wolfsburg
    chandler- frankfurt, nurnberg
    amon- nordsjalland
    ______________________________________


    before anyone starts parsing every damn word of this- i think of "champions league level" as teams that a) were last year, b) will be this year, or- very occasionally- c) usually are.

    i didnt include guys like schoenfeld (maccabi tel aviv) who i have almost no familiarity with, and ive tried to be clear in players' place in their teams so as to avoid "tim ream- PREMEIR LEAGUE STARTER!"-esque nonsense.

    i just added a handful of europa players as i came across them, in the "germericans'" case due to past cl involvement. but i didnt look into past cl play overall either, cause that wasnt the point i was trying to make.

    heres the only definitive thing im saying with all this- youre talking out of your ass.

    and that goes for your reply as a whole.

    what the hell are you even talking about with adams was only available for 1 match? i clearly stated over the tenure of both sarachan and now berhalter.

    maybe it was unfair of me to ask "what makes you think it will change?". i only did so because we HAVENT played a match without bradley or trapp. thats a fact. it shouldnt be on you, or anyone, to prove that we will. cant prove the unknown and all that.

    but is saying something is going to change that has literally always been the same as valid as saying its going to stay the same? am i even above a 6 year olds understanding of logic here?

    berhalter has said adams is going to play as a gimmicky ass rb/cm hybrid. hes said that since hes abandoned it with lima/anyone else, since adams was ruled out of the gc.

    saying that berhalter is NOT going away from his insistence on bradley/trapp isnt "way off". thinking he will is.

    ...even if he hadnt said it himself (that no, adams is not going to played as a midfielder).
     
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  13. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  14. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That works in reverse, also; MLS clubs aren't lining up to build a team around Morales, either and they are incentivized to play Americans. He got a look from FC Cincinnati, but most achieving MLS clubs would see him as depth piece. Players that get call-ups from MLS are usually stand-out players, which I'm not sure Morales would be at all.
     
  15. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    This is pretty much where we expected to be, when Egg got hired: one of the top teams in the region, but not the top team.

    I don't get the people clamoring for the kids to take over. The game among U-xx is very different, the adult game requires a lot more team-thinking than what the youngsters usually have.

    I don't get what happened to Boyd, my guess is that he had a knock. Otherwise, no one in the roster was there to help us against Mexico.

    Cannon is ready to go to Europe, he's been for a while. I prefer the Zimmerman-Long CB pair over any containing Miazga.

    The big holes are LB, striker, and someone creative in the middle. While Sargent or Weah may be ready for the striker role, I'd let them develop in peace and give Nova or Wooten a shot first.

    As for the creative middle role, I know I'm alone in this but I wouldn't mind giving Mix another shot. Guy is vital to his team, the best in the K-League and that had a good run in the AFC Champions --which to my eyes looks better than the CONCACAF Champions.

    A midfield of Adams, McKennie and Diskerud would be one I want to see tried. As for LB, frankly I have no idea. Give Lichaj a try there, maybe. But that position is a black hole for us at the moment.
     
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  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Lol. He’d be a depth piece on most achieving MLS clubs!!!!!

    I’ll tell you what: he’d immediately start ahead of both Bradley and Trapp at their respective clubs.
     
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  17. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And here is a link to his explicit comment about how he would like the manager to try he and Mo Edu to get a turn together (as the other combos were always Michael and EITHER Mo or himself). It was further back than I remembered ... 2011. Notice how the article points to Jones' inconsistency ... which people like me thought was garbage at the time. Seeing that Mike's father was the manager, the midfield without Mike did not happen, and Bob got fired after the Gold Cup debacle later in the same year.

    https://sbisoccer.com/2011/03/edu-j...o-battle-for-usa-starting-spot/comment-page-2
     
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  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Thanks for the links.
     
  19. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Apex.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union

    I mean, I get it. I think it'd result in frustration, but I get it. I'm excited to see Pomykal, Weah, and Dest, maybe Gloster because we need a LB. Guys like Mendez and Llanez look like they still need a lot of work. Soto I could go either way on and I worry about his size a bit.

    Unfortunately, for as much as we hype our u-20 teams, it seems hindsight has told us that failure at that level is a canary in the coal mine of failure more than success as being a sign of things to come.
     
  20. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Nah, Altidore had dropped into a #10 CAM role and Pulisic was up top in the 5-4-1 or 4-2-3-1. Then Zardes comes in, goes up top and Pulisic reverts to his original role. Roldan then goes to Morris's spot which takes him out of midfield. Leaving just Wes and Mike against the three or four Mexican CMs again.
     
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  21. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perhaps it has already been posted - but does anyone have a definitive link or mention about why Boyd did not play?
     
  22. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    write that down on a piece of paper with todays date
     
  23. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Zardes and Altidore both play cf, they just do it differently by instinct and capability. Altidore drops deeper to use his physicality. Zardes tries to beat the offside trap. If you saw Pulisic central and higher than Jozy it's because he was temporarily vacating that space or Christian was just being the bubble chasing kid.

    Then he was informed to keep the shape, which lasted all of a minute. Why the eff would Gregg call for the 451 one minute and change it the next? The instruction just didn't take for longer than that because Christian always wants to find the game.
     
  24. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Also, how come Guardado choking McKennie wasn't a card? That was egregious. The old Mexican knows the psych of the game. After that episode, Wes had a lousy second half (it happened at the 47' mark).

    Guardado knew exactly what he was doing. Young players get the wind taken off their wings with crap like that, and much worse when it's not punished.

    Everybody knows holding someone by the neck is a red card offense. Even the press in Spanish knows Mexico got away with murder there, so to speak.

    https://www.12up.com/posts/video-an...cuello-a-su-rival-y-no-paso-nada-01df8wc28pt7

    That's a reason why I'm somewhat opposed to putting kids in roles far too heavy for them. Puli, Wes and Adams are old enough for the NT, but the captaincy is a bit too much yet.

    Kids under 20 I'd avoid putting in the pressure of the big team yet. Old players know how to break them mentally. All the dark arts are fair in CONCACAF, you guys know that.

    I'm sure all these losses are taking its toll on CP too. Missing the World Cup, I feel, affected his production with club. We're human, not machines, and the younger we are, the more fragile in the upstairs.
     
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  25. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    None of us can say that for sure. And I’m someone who would have loved to see Morales get more looks.
     

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