The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except its not only Notts County that's being discussed. It was the specific instance I've quoted but he's discussed Accrington Stanley, I've heard it from Blackburn, and other club leaders have also responded.
     
  2. I use the English spelling, so it must be clear it's used by a non American, thus not burdoned/familiar with negative connotations with those words.
     
  3. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you've decided to go with the attack (one of) the messenger/ad hominem response. And you're claiming I failed. SMH.
     
  4. You use it as endorsement of your stance, so yes you failed.
    To repeat it, thousands of clubs have been relegated without it being a death sentence. You better should look up that twat's club and it's record for the last ten years to see if he's been running the club into the reefs himself.
     
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  5. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    My turn..... ***sigh***

    You cherry picked what the guy from AS said.
    Man, you're good at those types of responses.
    Did this guy, at any time, recommend a move to a closed system?

    I'll wait.

     
  6. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's fair, but it's also fair to note that relegation could finish off the club whereas if it's position in the league were secure it might be salvageable.
     
  7. I'm baffled that the only true communist states surviving today are Cuba, North Korea and the USA sports.
     
  8. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fire your writer.
     
  9. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't quite get the argument that the only way to protect the grassroots, community-based nature of traditional football clubs is to expose them to the ruthless whims of the market.
     
  10. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And again--we have plenty of pro/rel in this country, just not at the professional level. I don't know why people who think pro/rel is so important aren't rallying around amateur clubs.
     
  11. To stay a big six club you also have to have capable management. It shows the declining power of ManUnited when they tried to get the Ajax management to jump over to ManUnited. Both Van der Sar and Marc Overmars said no and you can expect the salary proposals were huge.
    So when a top club cannot keep it's stars aboard, cannot sign new stars and cannot sign capable management to replace the morons responsible for the mess in the last few years, how certain can you be that club is a perpetual top six one.
    Would you buy shares in a sloppy company not able to keep it's best employees, not able to attract the new talents and not able to hire the management to turn the company around?
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Again, did I ever claim he did?

    Go ahead, I'll wait.

    You like to respond in non-sequiturs that don't actually address the point of the post you're responding to. This tangent started when I pointed out that P/R may not drive income, but it does drive expenditures, specifically trying to avoid a very costly, if not lethal, relegation. At no point did I suggest or state that these directors wanted to end P/R in England, in fact a couple of pages ago I stated that I thought P/R in England still made sense.

    But that doesn't mean I support the current P/R economics/model in England, or P/R at all here in the U.S. But that's probably a little too 'shades of grey' for you to follow or respond to, given your black & white posting history in this thread.
     
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  13. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not sure I agree with that assessment. It is not like ManCity and Chelsea suddenly became well managed clubs to arrive as top 6. They had owners who had ridiculously deep pockets that moved them into that elite area. If it was just management, you would see more diversity in La Liga. Instead it is the rich clubs and the occasional run when somebody catches lightning in a bottle which happens about once every 20 years or so. Is it really that different in the Netherlands?
     
  14. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay but you now know that it's not really an appropriate term. My personal experience is it's not really an appropriate term in the UK either. The only English speaking nation where I heard it is South Africa, which obviously brings it's own oil tanker of racial baggage with. it.
     
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  15. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just for reference, the Eredivisie has been won by Ajax or PSV in 41 of the last 50 seasons, and by Ajax, PSV, or Feyenoord in 47 of the last 50 seasons.
     
  16. :D
    I just gave him a raise:p
     
  17. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    There seem to be multiple, competing grievances here:
    Andy Holt's common thesis seems to be mostly around the money required for promotion (or, really, it seems to be more about how the money at each successive level it out of pace with expenditures) and the risk carried if a promotion push fails.

    I think this is a reasonable concern, but it's hard to see where pro/rel really fits into it. This issue feels way more about TV money, FFP, and SCMP, which seem orthogonal to pro/rel.

    Next, he seems to allude to the fact that a club like Notts County is too big to survive in the National League. This is also probably true, but it, too, can be divided in a couple of ways: he doesn't really seem to convey that relegation within the EFL is a death sentence (in fact, he seems to be imply that League Two has the best revenue/expenses ratio), so that doesn't read that relegation is the issue really, but it's more of being outside of the Football League.
    That feels like a really different problem, honestly.
    Also, regarding Notts County's size: Sears is really too big to be less than an anchor tenant, but they are no longer performing well enough to stay at the end of the mall. How long do you give them to sort themselves out? This is a club that has been circling the drain for over 15 years.
     
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  18. When ManCity was bought by that first multimulty billionair fans got exited. I than years ago wrote a warning that money needs to be spent well. It wasnot heeded by the then in control management and they did some bloody stupid investments in players and coach, which of course didnot deliver what fans expected. It took some years before ManCity turned money into success, which shows you need more than just money to succeed.
    The wandering of ManUnited out of the coveted top 4 despite being a top 4 in money club is ample proof you need more than money to stay on top.
     
  19. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    There's pressure. I know you don't believe it but there is. You're living in a fantasy world if you don't think so. RSL's attendance has dropped mightily over the last couple of years because we're not as good as we were in 2013 when we lost in the MLS Cup final. The results have resulted in lower ticket sales and less revenue. We went from 14,000 season tickets in a 20,000 seat stadium to a much smaller number now. So don't act like there isn't pressure to put a good product on the field. RSL is damn lucky to have an owner who is willing to throw money towards player development despite this.

    Sure buddy. Keep thinking that. There are consequences. But go on and keep plugging your ears and arguing with those of us who actually have worked in American sports and keep arguing with someone quoting actual EFL level executives. You certainly know better than them.

    Do you honestly think that a person with billions of dollars to throw at a sports team will feel any sort of consequence? We are talking about the USA here where it would be very easy for a billionaire to simply walk away from their club if they felt it was too much trouble. Leaving aside that any implementation of pro/rel in the US would require a complete tear down and rebuild of the current system and is about as likely to happen as me starring in a broadway show, do you honestly think that if the Chicago Fire were relegated that their owner would go "Boy I learned my lesson?" He'd sell the team or liquidate it and cut his losses without really feeling any sort of pain. The people who would suffer would be the fans, the front office staff and the players.

    So while you and the other Euro folks prattle on about how we Americans don't understand the truth of what it means to have an emotional connection to a club and while many even admit that a relegation is one of the worst things one can go through as a fan, when I point out that here in the US we don't make fans suffer through that, I'm stupid.

    Next time, instead of taking time to type up excuses for using offensive language (not ironic that you're continually getting likes by a guy that used a slur once when describing Liga MX), take a moment to look at some YouTube videos of American sports fans reacting to big losses. Or look up the Cubs fan who took his radio to his dad's grave so they could listen to the Cubs win the WS together. Then get back to me. We don't relegate in any sport ever but that doesn't diminish our passion for our teams. And yes, we don't have to suffer the further indignity of relegation, and there is always hope. That's why the way we run our sports leagues is far, far superior than the scheme that is set up in Europe.

    Thank the sports gods that we'll never have to deal with relegation and promotion.
     
  20. Well, that's the difference with a sports culture that has clubs grown from within a community for decades from humble to the top and clubs as an investment toy where the owner looks for a place to fit it in where it makes the most money.
    That's the difference of club like Erik Palmer-Brown plays for, NAC Breda, that has relegated now for the iirc for the 3d time in 8 years and a club as a rich man's toy.
    Everybody connected to NAC Breda will fight tooth and nail to promote again. Your moneyman gets bored and liquidates.
    Same goes with FC Twente, in 2010 champion of the Eredivisie and after mismanagement fell from grace to relegate. Everybody in the region fought to keep the club afloat and now they're back.
    If your moneyman doesnot want to learn the hard way how to run a soccer club he should stay out of the kitchen if he's such a whimp to feel the heat.
    He obviously hasnot learned beforehand how to do it.
     
  21. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So basically there are two sides here...........

    Those who believe in the romance of sports and sporting merit.

    Those who believe in common business sense.

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    Anyone want to take a stab at discussing HOW exactly a league system that promotes and relegates teams could be implemented here in the U.S.A.?

    I mean it's great and all that our expat, and euro community members wax poetically about pro-rel battles back in the leagues of their home countries, but that's not exactly moving this thread forward..........
     
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  22. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think you're understanding the ramifications of the simple fact that soccer is not popular here. It's not just the overall sports culture, it's also that soccer as a sport hasn't had enough time to get ingrained into people's consciousness.
     
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  23. DanGerman

    DanGerman Member+

    Aug 28, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has been precisely my point. I appreciate his passion but he's looking at everything from the lens of a fan who's club has been around forever in a country where the sport is king AND follows one of the bigger clubs. It's difficult for someone from that background to see the difficulties in implementing a setup similar to the one he knows in this country. I'd liken it to wondering why Baseball hasn't taken off in the Netherlands, I mean its absolutely huge here in the states! It hasn't on the U.S level for many reasons but I'm not close minded enough to chastise local Dutch fans who would explain as to why it hasn't.
     
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  24. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Coloured is negative in England too.
     
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  25. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Take those 3 players out antd TFC still spent 4x HOU ...

    When you're laughing off what is being presented by the owner of Accrington Stanley you shouldn't label anyone's contributions stupid ... Nor should you speak to the believability of anyone else.
     
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