First ever game that Atlanta didn't sell every available seat? Still a crowd most in the world would kill for!
I couldnt care less about MLB and what happens there. I know they report tickets sold. I also know that MLB gets a free pass because it’s one of the major sports. It is MLS’s best interest to ensure actual sellouts as it builds its standing in the sports scene. Saying it doesn’t matter because it happens in other leagues overlooks the fact that MLS is not only not mainstream, but not even the main choice soccer league. Who said anything about the league going anywhere? Calling out bad attendance to you is code for saying the league is going to fail? Dont put words in my mouth. I just had my say on an attendance for a game I watched 15 minutes of and switched off. The team is playing well, the stadium is still relatively new, and yet DCs games are increasingly looking troubled. It’s not just this game and bad weather, with DC it’s a trend.
It is meaningless today but not for the reason you think. This thread began as a means of tracking the health of the league. Way back when, attendance was the only means of statistically measuring the survivability of MLS. That is obviously no longer a concern. Now this thread is for those who want to follow the data to spot trends, or out of habit, or whatever. The rule about "Zomg I saw less on TV were all going to die!111 Respect my autority!!!" are there because nimrods who can't read drive off 2 historians and keepers of the data. If you want to talk about how were all doomed and certain teams will die and ponzi schemes or blahs blahs (heard it all before), go make a thread and have at it. No one is stopping you. Just. Not. Here.
I think an honest discussion on attendance league wide is a good thing, as is discrepancies between announced and actual. The league has a history of dishonesty we should point out whenever it raises its head. Issues arise when these false narratives are being used to try to influence individual teams, as was done in Columbus.
I first came to BigSoccer (and lurked for a few years before joining) because of the attendance thread, which at that time was a fairly well-oiled machine oriented around stats and the venerable AAAQ number. Those days are well past now, and I have no problem with some relaxation of the old rules about 'looks like' estimates. But there are so many games each week that we simply can't in any reasonable way talk about every single one. So I might propose a general guideline that if you think actual attendance was within 75-95 percent of announced attendance at some point during the middle of the game (not first or last 20 minutes), please don't say anything. You won't be adding anything to the conversation.
I agree but their should be context to these things. People acting like MLS doesn't count tickets the same like the other Big 5, They all count tickets sold as that's the most important fact how much money you get REVENUE. Speaking of false narratives is failure to mention context. The Vancouver game, we had someone post the Vancouver game attendance was off. Being a longtime MLS fan you kind of have a eye for scoping out BS numbers, I watched that WhiteCaps game and many times they did zoomed out pan shots and that was a pretty full crowd a legit 18-19k no shenanigans. Again adding context there was a staged walkout during that game in case people didn't know. The latest example the DC United game, it's been raining here STILL is, since Friday night it's been a raw chilly rain in low 50s so I salute those 12.5k brave souls. Lets not make this a Columbus grievance thread they have had crappy attendance for far too long even in the hey day with Hejduk in the MLS Cup year only the Nordecke appeared full, what MLS almost let Precourt do was down right heinous. Both things can be mutually exclusive and true.
Exactly you remember those days we've gotten far away from those. I'd hate to see this thread turn into reddit.
Atlanta crowd always sounds great on TV but yesterday's game was awesome. The crowd/atmosphere was at the top of its game. For anybody that hasn't experienced it in person, it is a must bucket list for any US soccer fan.
This is not accurate and has been explained over and over and over. The others may do it the same but it is not tickets sold. it is tickets distributed. This is a very important distinction. The numbers announced does not mean MLS collected money for that many tickets. I agree with your comments on the Vancouver and DC games. There is a way to have civil discussion about teams and how closely their crowds match announced numbers. This is much much better today than it used to be. Most teams announced numbers pretty closely match butts in the seats these days. I will say that this is one of the first years I feel it is slipping back to old ways. I know the season is still early. Civil goes both ways though. I have not seen anyone suggesting MLS counts tickets differently than other leagues.
I pointed out in my post just before the one you quoted what this thread used to be. I was around. I loved the thread. It is not what it used to be as I pointed out. Things change. I 100% agreed when the thread was actual numbers and stats. There was no place for discussion on what we thought may have been actually present. I don't agree now as the thread is not even close to what it used to be. Again civility goes both ways (throwing out accusations of someone's intentions when they have showed zero evidence of that is not a good start). I for one have no intentions of talking about how we are all doomed. I have never done that once. I haven't seen more than one or two do that at all. I completely agree. This is not the place for that. There is a way to talk about how teams are doing with butts in the seats without saying the league is doomed. I have been following since day one. I know what this league has come from. I know some low attendances here and there are nothing to be concerned with. No doom and gloom here.
The point is we have no way of knowing that no one here to our knowledge works for MLS. It's pure speculation. So we had settled this long ago on here that we would report the numbers as is under industry standards. The point being is we can't hold MLS to a different set of standards when the other Pro leagues are counting attendance the same way. It's like they get a pass because they are "Established" MLS is as well and isn't going anywhere. We can talk the numbers as long as context is added,but the days where we are fighting for MLS legitimacy is over.
Agreed. I have seen no-one suggesting official attendance numbers should be altered. That would be ludicrous. I also think context is very important that is why i think mentions of what appear to be low show ups are valid. I also understand this had been settled long ago but again this thread is absolutely nothing like it used to be. I also agree on days of fighting over MLS legitimacy are over. Any talk from someone coming in here to claim doom and gloom should be shut down.
There is a big difference between 22k announced when it looks like probably 17-19k are there, and 22k when it appears that 10-12k are there or 10k announced with 700 there (Fire) Its early season, school is still in, weather is choppy, if there are a few k no-shows, it understandable at this point. Now if we keep seeing 20k announced with 10k actual (Houston), no bad weather, decent team, then we need to question wtf is up, just probably somewhere else though. This thread isnt the data analysis thread it used to be, and honestly probably should be relegated to the general forum so we can have a proper discussion about the butts in seats vs announced discrepancies.
Completely agree. The Vancouver game that was mentioned is a good example of that. That would fit in your possibly a few K below the announced of 18k-ish. That is not what most of us are talking about. That is absolutely within normal sports attendance number vs butts in the seats discrepancies. Honestly the normal offenders of what most of us are talking about are: Chicago, NYRB, Houston. Recently, Orlando. Sometimes NER and to a lesser extend NYCFC. Possibly Colorado (not sure about that one). I am sure I am forgetting someone. Most other teams appear to be pretty close with announced attendances. For the past several years it seemed to be mainly Houston but like I said it seems this year (possibly last) it is kind of creeping back to more teams.
I say we should and can do both. But keep it brief. Something along the lines like Orlando reporting 21k official number, looks 15-16k-ish to my untrained eye. If there are underlying issues like Vancouver-staged time walkout, DC-Noah's Ark someone can briefly quote response. Over a period of time those types of reports are more valuable and carry more weight.
With 68k last night, it definitely appears to be a trend now. I now agree their total/average attendance will be just less than last year. Not sure why they are selling 2k less per game but they appear to know what they are doing so I'll try not to question it.
That wasn’t my point. Columbus is rebuilding their FO after years (more than 5) of neglect and IMO the attendance is irrelevant this year. They aren’t in danger of moving anymore. What we should be looking for is BS numbers in other cities, an attempt by MLS to generate false hype and interest.
The problem is, there is generally nothing to support the actual vs announced discussions because, invariably, it is based on people's perceptions (which are often faulty), or some unknown source that someone claims to have that can't be verified. If we are to allow this type of discussions, it has to be based on verified sources and not based on someone claiming their source is "their eyes" or "I know a guy in the FO".
Which is why we decided long ago we would just use the industry standard there is too much of a slippery slope.
There are times when this is abundantly obvious the numbers aren't even close. This what what we are talking about. There are times when the butts in the seats is less than 50% of announced. That is worthy of discussion. Discussion on here sometimes leads to reasons why...weather, fan walk outs, etc.