Lionel Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo; better UEFA Champions league career?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sexy Beast, Jul 31, 2018.

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  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #276 carlito86, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
    @Bavarian14
    It only seems that way because they are so good
    Both players have in their own way have redefined the parameters of greatness

    I have always said that many contemporary greats as arjen robben,franck ribery,neymar,ibrahimovic,hazard are as great as all but 1 or 2 players from the 1995-2005 era which was comparitively weak

    Do you think micheal owen could even been invited to a ballon dor ceremony if messi/ronaldo are around
    Let alone win it(against rivaldo,zidane,raul etc)

    Or R9 win the ballon dor for a world cup he wasnt even voted best player for (kahn)

    Shevchenco with 24 league goals and a unimpressive CL campaign against prime dribbling ronaldinho and henry

    Do you really think these players could ever in their dreams compete against players who scored 30-40 goals in a season by january
    Every prime season had enough highlights to compare to the entire career of many good players
    Just 1 season

    In just 2 seasons
    2011/12 and 2012/13 lionel messi scored as many goals as zidane did in his career
    Before we get on the assists,key passes,through ball,dribbles etc

    There is no era like this one the closest was the 60s maybe but the peak of eusebio was short
    (Relatively of course)

    Messi/ronaldo did to football what micheal schumacher did to F1,woods did to golf in the late 90s,tyson did to the heavyweight
    Division in the mid to late 80s,federer did at wimbeldon,nadal on clay etc..
    Complete and utter domination
     
  2. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    That would be a very terrible argument. That would be the fact if they were both competing in basically any other era.
     
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  3. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    I agree with pretty much everything you said in this post. As far as consistency, I dont think anyone in the history of the game matches CR7 or Messi.
    I do think though that Cruyffs overall game has the advantage over CR7. But when you see the consistency of CR7 it makes me wander. It's unreal.
    Maradona at his peak was as good as any player ever. But I am beginning to put CR7 over him. Just because CR7s consistency is so far above Maradona. But I'm still hesistant to put CR7 in a top 4. No problem putting him top 5.

    And yes, Messi has to step up in CL football. In league you can afford to slack off but not in CL knockout stage. Because 1 game can decide everything. I blame Messi specifically in 13-14, 15-16, and 17-18 in CL. To me all the other ones are fine or excusable.

    Regardless of how bad or good CR7 plays in CL, I never feel like its because of a lack of effort, but for Messi I do. I expect more than what he has given in some CL games. But my God, I truly feel honored to watch Messi. And the same goes for CR7. I truly feel lucky to watch their great feats.
    That comeback from CR7 against Atletico just blew my mind! Messi has also had a few 10/10 performances this year.
     
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  4. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Happy to see tiger woods win the biggest tournament in golf today!!! Hes been through a lot of sh*% to get to this point
     
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  5. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    We will certainly look back at the 2010s at the beginning of the ultra-consistency and ultra-longevity era in Sports. It's not just CR7 and Messi in football. We have the likes of Lebron James in Basketball, Daniel Cormier in UFC, and Roger Federer in Tennis.

    Never before have the best athletes been able to remain athletically competitive at the top level for so long.

    Lebron James at 34 remains one of the most physically dominant player in the league, second only to the other freaks like Giannis.

    I don't know what exactly have made this possible. It is most likely advances in a hundred different fields of sports sciences each adding it's own 0.5% until we're here.

    Can you explain to me why? Why blame Messi is particular?
     
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  6. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Who are the top 4 according to you I wonder
     
  7. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Exactly, which is why I do not rate 'consistency' all that highly in an all time context, because Johan Cruijff with the benefits of today would have had far better consistency and far better longevity - it is science, it really is that clear-cut.

    Of course, Messi and Ronaldo are still highly consistent even when adjusting for the science reality of progress, but in an all time context, I think that time will demonstrate that their 'consistency' is not as great as we might think it is as of this date.
     
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  8. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The true test would be if we start seeing the like of Mbappe continuing to be athletically competitive in his 30s. Obviously, it'll require a certain level of professionalism to make it possible as well, and that is no guarantee at all.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    But you also posted a very good post about how you realised Neymar's stats in comparison to team-mates (involvement in percentage of goals) didn't stack up well compared to Figo's. That's the danger of stat based analysis. Everyone knows I guess I disagree with you about 95-05 but that's fine. I don't think you should ignore all the massive differences in terms of offside laws, super-teams, harsher penalisation of fouls etc etc though. I think it's more like CR7 and Messi would have scored quite a few less goals in the era of say MVB and their overall impact would be closer to what we see it World Cups, but I could be wrong. Maybe in the end it's true if I liked them more as people I'd enthuse about them more as players....to an extent (and Messi doesn't stand accused of anything like CR7 does to be fair; I guess the 'Tello incident' and suchlike can be over-blown in my mind as it just happened the microphone picks up that outburst and I end up feeling I don't like him either lol - and in the end if I would be too judgemental then at some point I stop being a 'nice guy' myself!).
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'd say he was fairly consistent with good longevity. He was a consistent world beater in the second half of the 60s and had it still in his very last season (which his games against Liverpool, Roma, Tottenham, Standard Liege, Ajax, Manchester United show well)... and he himself said he was lucky with that. This type of longevity was also recognized by GS and FF at the time and the profiles by e.g. Michel Drucker and Rethacker also mention this.

    But yes, in many sports the average age of top players has gone up. To a point it is very very hard for new ones to get there
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    And my point/feeling is kind of relevant to Federer: past his physical prime he still competes with the best because of superior quality as a tennis player. What we don't see is all the young up and comers beating him all the time, because as they were born many years later they are automatically better due to evolution.

    The stats in football are being used to exaggerate the quality of CR7 and Messi as players IMO, without proper consideration as to why the stats are increasing so much. I know part of it is their own attributes but what I'd dispute is that they are something new in terms of talent. What they both do have is a desire to win individual awards, break goal records etc and that also inevitably leads to them chasing and achieving seemingly ground-breaking stats (at least compared to relatively recent eras). FIFA wanted more goals in the game and they got them - they didn't make the goals bigger to achieve it but they did amend various rules (I'm not saying for the worse necessarily - players could undoubtedly get away with too much foul play without appropriate consequences in the not so distant past - speaking of Figo again look how many fouls he received and how 'harsh' they were in the final of the 1997 Copa Del Rey, or a previous round against Atletico Madrid. Also look at the quality of his play, and tell me if Neymar/Messi/CR7 could produce better as well as more end product while suffering so many fouls - I think any claim they definitely could doesn't seem realistic given what we see in World Cups).
     
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  12. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I believe this point is being exaggerated. Yes, athletes today have the benefit of modern applications that help them extend their peak relative to the past but it is still largely down to the player himself. Brazilians of recent times are a prime example of players (Kaka, Ronaldinho especially) that reached their peak and no amount of modern science allowed them to stay there. CR7 especially is an example of a player who has done everything possible, to the point of obsession, to make sure he stays at the top as long as he can.

    That is a mental trait, irrespective of time. Lebron James, an example mentioned here, is no different than Kobe Bryant or even, and especially Michael Jordan. Jordan's prime, which sees him unequivocally ranked as the undisputed GOAT of basketball, extended from the 80s well into the 90s.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Talking about that, today there was in the newspaper over here an article about the vastly declined turnover in the tennis top 50 (a sport with a clearly defined ranking for players) and that for the first time ever the average age of the top 10 players is over 30. What is going on? Obviously there are four exceptionally gifted players at the top, who were young very good. But the very same statistical trend is also visible at the top 50 and top 100. Well, key factors are the money distribution (the jump from juniors to seniors has become more expensive) and then especially at the very top end. The very top players have an entourage consisting of at least two coaches, a manager, a physiotherapist, a condition trainer, or - in case of Roger Federer - nannies to take care of the twins.

    Another key factor are medical advances, and that youngsters find it hard to recover in the modern day 'power' era. It takes time to build up towards the necessary fitness level - time that is not always there. Furthermore, it is for fans and others interesting to see Nadal make strong comebacks, and nowadays the benefits outweigh the costs in that respect. Then there are also a few minor things as that the ranking/seeding has become more protective for the top players (thus also protecting their income level), which in turn keeps them at the top for longer instead of falling down.

    "30 years old seize power in top tennis - road to the top has become expensive for the youth"
    http://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/dertiger-grijpt-macht-in-toptennis~a4226242/


    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/th...o-as-best-ever.2016490/page-332#post-33470947


    Of course that is important and necessary, but that there are certain eras more beneficial to old players (the 1950s for example, with many older players playing at a high level) is obvious.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
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  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Do you have stats for how many fouls per game figo
    I know that CR was brutalised in la liga 09/10 with over 3 fouls per game conceded(108 in 35 games)
    Which was the most by anyone in spain
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nesn.c...ronaldo-who-do-rival-defenders-foul-more/amp/

    This just ended being one of his highest rated campaigns as reflected by dbs calcio,whoscored and various match ratings
    The 2nd most key passes in la liga after xavi
    The 3rd most dribbles in the league(and he did it from a free roaming CF position)
    The most distance covered by anyone in the league

    33 goals+12 assists in 35games
    Including 4 penalties(3 he earned)
    7 solo goals
    6 direct freekicks
    Headers
    Volleys
    Poaching

    Figo never did touch this level of play in his career
    Irregardless of team edge,sports science or whatever else "traditionalists" use as excuses nowdays

    Why are messi and ronaldo so much better then the competition
    Were not talking about fine margins here
    Arent all players beneficiarys of the same level of sports science during this era

    Why is the difference between the best and the rest so much bigger than it was during the 1995-2005 era
    It is a combination of desire,mentality,talent and professionalism that many previous legends simply did not have
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Screenshot (5).png
    Not per game, but this caption is from near the end of the game against Betis (including extra-time) - maybe it went up to about 17 by the end I think, but obviously it's at least 15.
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    This was the post you previously made that I referred to before Carlito:

    I feel like you've come away from that viewpoint with more recent posts, like on this thread. I'm not saying you can't change your mind, but I think the points you are making in that post can be relevant here also.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm not trying to say we can use percentage involvement in team goals to decide arguments either by the way. I do acknowledge Messi has some talent and is a good player (ok, I'm under-stating now) and that he was on the same team as Neymar. At the same time, if and when De La Pena plays a great pass to Ronaldo(Brazil) who scores, it shouldn't be a mark against Figo of course.

    But Carlito's post did highlight how many more goals these teams do score these days, and why therefore stats (including Neymar's, including Messi's) will be inflated by this effect, compared to if they'd played in a slightly earlier time (in my opinion anyway - the opposite opinion would be based on assuming that indeed Messi is a huge upgrade on previous generations top stars...and so are players like Neymar too).
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I tried to give a balanced take re neymar
    My previous posts could be percieved as negative and discriminatory

    Taking all things into account the neymar vs figo comparison could go either way
    The eye test which is subjective but is something i place great emphasis on is conclusively in neymars advantage
    Technically he is a complete player who can pass,dribble,score at a very high standard

    Figo was good at tounaments but he definately wasnt great
    So lets not exaggerate(at world cup level it goes to neymar and copa vs euro goes to figo)
    They are fairly even at league level and the same goes for champions league in my personal opinion(we can say at barcelona at least figo was more of a creator than neymar and for longer
    At psg neymar took it up a notch or two

    The bottom line is non of them were great players who decided big games
    But at least neymar had the 14/15 KO stage that goes in his favour
    (It also doesnt matter if he wasnt the
    Highest rated player in those games)

    Admittedly we are still waiting for neymar to put on a great playmaking performance in big/important matches
    And as recent studies have shown his decision making takes a major hit when the pressure is really on

    the last part isnt really relevant because we arent comparing neymar to eusebio/van basten
    We are comparing him to luis figo who was really only a great player in the context of domestic leagues(specifically la liga)
    He is of the same rank as henry(great only in a league context)

    While rivaldo/ronaldinho arguably shone a little brighter but it was too short(only 1 or at best 2 seasons during which they stood above the rest)

    Neymar never had extended periods of domination
    But he had the first half of 15/16 and the first half of 17/18(equivalent to 1 full season during which he was the best player in the world)
    And he did it in an era containing ronaldo/messi(which was like van basten/gullit challenging maradona in the late 80s-a GREAT achievement)

    Neymar is without a shadow of doubt one of the greatest ever players not to win the ballon dor(and greater than many ballon dor winners)
    Weah 1995/96
    Ronaldinho 2004/05
    Shevchenco 2003/04
    Papin 1990/91
    Zidane 1997/98
    Kaka 2006/07
    All rank beneath

    Other seasons as
    Rivaldo 1998/99
    Ronaldinho 2005/06
    Figo 1999/2000
    Are bordeline(it could either way)
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think we'd better just agree to disagree at this huge stumbling block mate lol! I place emphasis on this too and my eyes don't see that at all, but I really don't want a big debate about that so I'll leave things here, respectfully, if you'll do the same.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #297 carlito86, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
    Figo was more nimble in tight spaces(like a hazard but with less acceleration and body strength)

    Im a fan of high intensity direct dribblers
    Which is no coincidence that my favourite players are players like
    Maradona pre 1986
    Messi 2007-2013
    CR 06-10
    R9 96-98
    ronaldinho 2003/04
    Robben 13-15
    Neymar 15-
    Etc

    Not sure figo(his skillset) was conducive to being a game changer
    He was always too slow and his finishing ability(unlike baggio another slow dribbler)was just average(even worse than ribery imo and probably comparable to di maria)

    What he did have in his locker to unlock a defence was a mean accurate cross and could playmake through the middle( which he did do later on at real madrid)
    But he certainly was no platini (not even a beckham with crossing)

    What he was was what the british media hyped ryan giggs to be
    A world class winger,a generational talent
    Neymar is the same albeit a slightly more direct player,more flashy but with the same end product

    Neymar is also the superior athlete and his consistency as a top 5 player is now also longer
    Figo was at that level from 1999-2003(being generous here because after zidane came he largely played second fiddle)
    Neymar has definately been at that level since WC 2014(which was his breakthrough unless you count his santos career as worth anything more than beach "soccer")
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He wasn't slow mate, when relatively young:

    (That also shows at least 6 fouls including 2 potential red card offences)

    But I can see the Hazard comparison a little bit: I'd say Hazard lacked Figo's delivery with crosses etc, otherwise they'd be quite similar! Again you don't have to accept or agree with that though. I do want to leave it here now though, so if I don't reply to your next post that'll be the reason.
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Having said I wanted to leave it there lol, I will make one final comment though and that's that if Figo was to be given 4 consecutive years in prime form pretty much, I'd go with 1997-2001 myself. Maybe that's where the confusion lies in terms of thinking he was slow (compared to other wingers I guess you mean, and other expert dribblers in general) Carlito though, if you saw him more between 1999-2003.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #300 carlito86, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
    In any case we will just agree to disagree.
    After opening the neymar/figo thread i decided to do some "research" and came across a channel aptly named "figo mania"
    Ive already watched most of the figo match comps on R9godmagic and tbh not all of it impressed me

    The figomania channel focuses predominately on technical aspects and crossing which essentially every figo comp ive watched lacks
    Im not interested in seeing top 10 goals comps of players like figo,beckenbaur,matthaus etc who werent forwards
    Unfortunately most comps focused on players who dont have a large fanbase only focus on goals and some highlight reel skills
    Heres a nice comp

    You can check the channel out in your own time

    To address briefly what you said about figo/his prime/when i watched him:
    I remember figo mostly from euro 2000 onwards so it is actually possible i missed his best
    At that age i never followed/or was interested in players who played for teams other than my own(except at international/continental tournaments)

    From games i have viewed 1996/97 doesnt seem to be figo at his peak
    Pyhsically maybe
    Definitely not in terms of end product

    1990/00 and 2000/01 was the only time figo was truly at the level of a top 5 player in the world although some major stars had declined due to unforseen circumstances(most notably R9/del piero were completely out of the picture and arguably even rivaldo failed to replicate his previous form)
    Still a relatively competitive era with raul,prime beckham (who was better than gareth bale imo),totti,prime shevchenco,vieri,past prime bergkamp
    And of course zizou who had an injury hit season in 99 but came back strongly and lost to figo in the 2000 BD
     
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