Herbin was always a player of class and was appointed as the ASSE captain by new coach Batteux in 1967-1968 (who perhaps saw the future coach in him, probably) but he was handicapped with recurrent injuries since some time (since quite early in his career, right after '66 when he was at his top). He knew his last two caps in '68 (the first game against YUG and a friendly match against Spain in October). He was used exclusively as a libero since the start of the 70s, stopped playing and became the coach in '72. As a player, he's 1962-66. As for Durkovic, good pick.
I checked his card now and it is written on it that he had a knee surgery in 1967. https://footballyesterdayandtoday.blogspot.com/2017/10/robert-herbin-lenigmatique-fiche.html Which month? According to the detail of his games played, it would be more by the end of the year '66.
Schulz mystery is solved. He completely blotted out Pele in the Brazil vs. FIFA match in 1968, right before the Ballon votes. A good choice for the 68-69 season. Interestingly, Palmeiras was also described as a team without stars. Even Ademir Da Guia wasn't that much better than the others. Which eurocentric tin foil hat dared to spew out such blasphemy? It was Palmeiras captain Ferrari. Weil and Glanville actually rate ADG.
That's a great link! I'm not sure for what other season Verón would be top 23? I'd agree with @Ariaga that it is an 'above average' player but with a world class/dream season. For "world class" players have a look at Dearman's list. Or just copy his era selection for every year. Here you go
Thanks for your honesty and willingness to do so. Sadly the listdumpers and followers from low IQ and low PISA score countries as Thailand (dearman) and Peru (lowest pisa score of south America) are with many while the Gallic villages are with few. Quadruple handicaps are the result. Juan Ramon Veron was not a very talented footballer, like the rest of their Estududiantes brawlers. It was like Leicester City with a few Vinnie Jones in it.
Lol, Brainiac. You didn't get the gist there, did you? FFS, it's completely uncalled for negatively calling people 'listdumpers'.
It's not directed to you. You explain in this thread and the 1967 one your choices very well and logically. It helps me to learn things and that's great. Anyway, let's get back on thread, the more I've seen of Jairzinho I guess he can be a borderline pick for 1968.
Maybe Seeler could be included. Although the league did not have a better goal record than in previous years, in the Recopa de Europa he was top scorer, highlighting above all the importance he had in the classification of Hamburg for the final against that Milan full of figures.
A couple of points here. 1. Players can have seasons that are outliers to the rest of their careers. Kevin Phillips won the European Golden Boot in 2000 with 30 league goals, but never scored more than 14 in any other season. 2. International recognition doesn't always track club performance. Phillips started 4 internationals and never scored a single goal. But he undeniably had a single great season. International managers are often moved more by enduring class or structures they have been building for a longer time period.
This is the (very brief) profile the Rethacker book had about Ademir da Guia, literal translation: Born April 3, 1942, heir to Domingos Antonio da Guia (World Cup 1938), very nice player-creator of Palmeiras de Sao Paulo, tall, elegant (1.80m, 73kg), recognizable by his albino color and very controversial for the Brazilian national selection. He played the 1974 World Cup (one game, against Poland, moved to the right wing). You named Le Tissier, we might as well mention Ilkay Gundogan (maybe less trophies, but three times as many caps and more of a goalscorer + assister etc.).
Some brief profiles for Soviets, Yugoslavs and Czechoslovakia Dragan Dzajic (Red Star, Yugoslavia) Left-winger - Winner of Yugoslav league and cup – Euro 68 finalist – Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) - 3rd Ballon d’Or – 27 games, 12 goals Ivica Osim (Zeljeznicar Sarajevo, Yugoslavia) – Central Midfielder – 5th in Yugoslav league - Euro 68 finalist – Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) – 24th Ballon d’Or – 23 games, 9 goals Mirsad Fazlagic (FK Sarajevo, Yugoslavia) – Full-back – 7th in Yugoslav league - Euro 68 finalist – Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) – 24th Ballon d’Or – 28 games, 0 goals Petković, Ilija (OFK Beograd, Yugoslavia) – Right-winger – 15th in Yugoslav league - Euro 68 finalist – 27 games, 3 goals Albert Shesternyov (CSKA Moscow, USSR) – Centre-back – 9th in Soviet league in 1967, 4th in 1968 - Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) - 14th Ballon d’Or – 21 games, 0 goals in 1967, 24 games, 0 goals in 1968 Murtaz Khurtsilava (Dinamo Tbilisi, USSR) – Centre-back – 3rd in Soviet league in 1967, 7th in 1968 - 24th Ballon d’Or – 22 games, 2 goals in 1967, 25 games, 5 goals in 1968 Edward Streltsov (Torpedo Moscow, USSR) – Centre-forward – 12th in Soviet league in 1967, 3rd in 1968 - Soviet cup winner 1968 - Soviet player of the year 1967 and 1968 – 20 games, 6 goals in 1967, 33 games, 21 goals in 1968 Anatoliy Byshovets (Dynamo Kiev, USSR) Forward – Winner Soviet league 1967 and 1968 - 19 games, 9 goals in 1967, 15 games, 4 goals in 1968 Igor Chislenko (Dynamo Moscow, USSR) Winger/Forward – 2nd in Soviet league in 1967, 5th in 1968 – Soviet Cup winner in 1967 – 18 games, 5 goals in 1967, 4 games, 0 goals in 1968 Adamec, Jozef (Spartak Trnava, Czechoslovakia) – Forward – Winner of Czechoslovakian league – Top scorer in the league – Mitropa Cup winners 1967, runners up 1968 - 25 games, 18 goals
1. Good comparison, because I wouldn't let Kevin Phillips anywhere near a Ballon nom, either, and neither did the Ballon voters. That's not to say they didn't have their slip-ups. 2. So am I. To me, a Ballon class player is the type you build your entire NT around, not some flash in the pan or "yeah, maybe I'll pick him if I feel like it" level guy. I didn't know the Le Tiss comparison was going to be so memorable. I was thinking of being generous and comparing ADG to Zola, but Zola's international pedigree is from a completely different planet. Yet even he was nowhere near a Ballon-consideration every season. Not quite sure what you mean by Gundogan. Yes, I skipped ahead and read a 1974 article on ADG. Glanville said the general opinion always was ADG was too slow for international level. Fittingly, this is the same reason given for Le Tissier's omission, and generally the go to reason for any controversial omission (Beccalossi, Di Bartolomei). Not sure what the excuse for Bochini is.
One of the worst arguments I ever saw here. The entire NT around?? Only nations with scarce talents do that. Do you even watch football? On the field I ask. Not on tv or just reading "world soccer" editions. To see all the work done without the ball. Positioning, ball timing, cover ups... To see a little more than what a calculator can do with some stats. A collective sport and I have to read this kind of nonsense. lol Here are a number of Ballon class players, the type you build your entire NT around: Eric Abidal 2011 Barcelona - 18th Sergio Agüero 2008 Atlético Madrid - 14th 2011 Manchester City - 17th 2012 Manchester City - 17th 2015 Manchester City - 11th Philippe Albert 1994 Newcastle United - 21st Klaus Allofs 1984 FC Köln - 14th 1987 Marseille - 10th Xabi Alonso 2010 Real Madrid - 10th 2011 Real Madrid - 16th 2012 Real Madrid - 11th José Altafini 1963 Milan - 11th 1964 Milan - 16th 1974 Juventus - 15th Daniel Alves 2007 Sevilla - 15th 2010 Barcelona - 23rd 2011 Barcelona - 19th Manuel Amoros 1986 Monaco - 5th 1987 Monaco - 10th Luis Arconada 1980 Real Sociedad - 11th 1981 Real Sociedad - 21st Dominique Bathenay 1976 Saint-Étienne - 26th 1977 Saint-Étienne - 13th Miodrag Belodedici 1991 Red Star Belgrade - 8th Karim Benzema 2011 Real Madrid - 20th 2012 Real Madrid - 22nd 2014 Real Madrid - 16th 2015 Real Madrid - 20th Oliver Bierhoff 1997 Udinese - 29th 1998 Milan - 18th 1999 Milan - 19th Alen Boksic 1993 Lazio - 4th 1996 Juventus - 13th Maxime Bossis 1981 Nantes - 11th 1984 Nantes - 12th Antonio Cabrini 1978 Juventus - 13th 1983 Juventus - 23rd 1984 Juventus - 14th Roberto Carlos 1997 Real Madrid - 5th 1998 Real Madrid - 13th 1999 Real Madrid - 26th 2000 Real Madrid - 14th 2001 Real Madrid - 18th 2002 Real Madrid - 2nd 2003 Real Madrid - 8th Edgar Davids 1998 Juventus - 8th 1999 Juventus - 26th 2000 Juventus - 18th Didier Deschamps 1996 Juventus - 18th 1997 Juventus - 17th 1998 Juventus - 18th Giovane Élber 2001 Bayern Munich - 18th Luis Fernández 1985 Paris Saint-Germain - 12th 1986 RC Paris - 17th Luis García 2005 Liverpool - 23rd Gennaro Gattuso 2006 Milan - 14th 2007 Milan - 19th Ruud Geels 1975 Ajax - 6th 1977 Ajax - 20th And I could list here many others... And Zola had 2 nominations: Gianfranco Zola 1995 Parma - 6th 1997 Chelsea - 15th I would say the 6th place is a great accomplishment. But I really understand your mistake (Again, like thinking Ramos Delgado was a Right Back... lol) . You still are in the 60/70s of the World Soccer editions.
Another common tactic of the Americentrist is to try to obsessively and aggressively discredit anyone who doesn't buy into their gospel. They know their arguments are held together by very thin strands, so they'll try to muddy the waters by making everything into a personal beef. What sources do you use personally? They are more reliable than World Soccer, so please tell me and I'll seek them out immediately. Thank you for taking the time to seek out a couple dozen completely randomly names, almost all of whom were key players for their NT. Were you arguing in favor of me or something? I knew about Zola's nomination, ty. Your reading is at schoolboy level. I've highlighted a couple of key points for you to go over again.
Well, you try to circumvent with the americentrist nonsense again but things are really simple here. - The idea of "the type you build your entire NT around" is something way way different of being an important/valuable team member. Good/role players players with great seasons are also Ballon d'or material. - And those both Zola nominations are an achievement bigger than the idea you try to give him with this statement - "Yet even he was nowhere near a Ballon-consideration every season." The only thing i can say to you is to watch more football games on the field. Even JC14 said something alike the same thing I said: "When you play a match, it is statistically proven that players actually have the ball 3 minutes on average … So, the most important thing is: what do you do during those 87 minutes when you do not have the ball. That is what determines wether you’re a good player or not."
No, it's the exact same thing. What do you build a team around if not key players? You can't seriously think I meant some sole player who's head and shoulders above everyone else? In the BdO, that sometimes has 6 nominations from the same friggin' team? Holy crap, dude. The key to legitimate literacy is to understand the intention behind the written words. My meaning was pretty obvious to everyone who thinks about it even a little and doesn't fly into a triggered hissy fit before even finishing the post. All the information was there. I notice you failed to mention the sources you yourself use, yet you feel qualified to criticize mine? I'm not surprised, I already guessed you had nothing. You seriously come off as a peasant who's never read a book of his own free will. Here's a tip: let it go. Sometimes people have opinions you don't agree with. I know you're a self-confessed maniac, but there's no need to continuously go into a meltdown every time I post about certain topics. Take your personal beefs somewhere else.
To add to what Comme Started with Eastern Europe Soviet: Another good season for the Soviets with an extensive schedule played by the national team with a 9-6-5 record. The highlights were a 2-2 draw at England and defeating Hungary in the Euro QF via a 3-0 home win to overcome a 2-0 road defeat. In Europe both participating teams had mixed showings, with promising early wins but no deep run. Dynamo Kiev won both domestic titles and defeated Celtic in the first round of the EC. Albert Shesternyov (CSKA Moscow, USSR) – Centre-back – 9th in Soviet league in 1967, 4th in 1968 - Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) - 14th Ballon d’Or – 21 games, 0 goals in 1967, 24 games, 0 goals in 1968. 18(0) for the national team. Murtaz Khurtsilava (Dinamo Tbilisi, USSR) – Centre-back – 3rd in Soviet league in 1967, 7th in 1968 - 24th Ballon d’Or – 22 games, 2 goals in 1967, 25 games, 5 goals in 1968. Lost his place in the national team in the SF and 3rd place Euro games. Assuming injured? 14(4) for national team scored vs Hungary in the QF. Edward Streltsov (Torpedo Moscow, USSR) – Centre-forward – 12th in Soviet league in 1967, 3rd in 1968 - Soviet cup winner 1968 - Soviet player of the year 1967 and 1968 – 20 games, 6 goals in 1967, 33 games, 21 goals in 1968. Lost his place in the national team the second half of the season, not sure why as he was POTY in both seasons and 68 is his strongest domestic season on paper. 7(4) for the national team. Anatoliy Byshovets (Dynamo Kiev, USSR) Forward – Winner Soviet league 1967 and 1968 - 19 games, 9 goals in 1967, 15 games, 4 goals in 1968. Scored in both legs of the win vs Celtic. 10(2) for the national team. Scored in the 3-0 win vs Hungary. Igor Chislenko (Dynamo Moscow, USSR) Winger/Forward – 2nd in Soviet league in 1967, 5th in 1968 – Soviet Cup winner in 1967 – 18 games, 5 goals in 1967, 4 games, 0 goals in 1968. 12(3) for national team. Brace at England was excellent. Yozhef Sabo (Dynamo Kiev, USSR) Center-mid - Winner Soviet league 1967 and 1968, 21(3) 67 and 29(6) 68. 10(3) for nartional team. Abruptly loses place int he team before the Euros after playing every game for the past two season. Not sure why, played all the games in the 68 domestic season so I do not think it was injury. Does not play again for national team until 71. Was really considering him a good shout for the 23 until I saw he lost his spot in the national team. Yugoslavia: National team had an excellent season. Defeating France int he QF and England in the SF of the Euro, and outplayed Italy in the first leg of the final. Also won away vs Netherlands. Low points were getting beat 3-1 by West Germany, 3-0 by the Czechs, and 2-0 by Brazil. No especially good results for club teams in Europe. Red star wins the league with a huge offensive explosion. Scored 20 more goals than any other team. Dragan Dzajic (Red Star, Yugoslavia) Left-winger - Winner of Yugoslav league and cup – Euro 68 finalist – Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) - 3rd Ballon d’Or – 27 games, 12 goals. Some classic moments and games for the national team in the QF, SF and final. 9(3) for national team. Scored vs England, Italy, and France. Ivica Osim (Zeljeznicar Sarajevo, Yugoslavia) – Central Midfielder – 5th in Yugoslav league - Euro 68 finalist – Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) – 24th Ballon d’Or – 23 games, 9 goals. 6(3) for national team. Did not play in final after an excellent performance vs England. I believe was injured. Mirsad Fazlagic (FK Sarajevo, Yugoslavia) – Full-back – 7th in Yugoslav league - Euro 68 finalist – Euro 68 team of the tournament (retrospective) – 24th Ballon d’Or – 28 games, 0 goals. 9(0) for national team, captain. Petković, Ilija (OFK Beograd, Yugoslavia) – Right-winger – 15th in Yugoslav league - Euro 68 finalist – 27 games, 3 goals. 3(2) for national team. In my opinion was Yug second best player vs England and 1st leg vs Italy. Also scored x2 vs France. Huge miss for the final replay. If Yug had Osim and him available they could easily be champions. Pantelić, Ilija (Vojvodina, Yugoslavia) - Goalkeeper - 13th in league 27(0). 7(0) for the national team where he had a number of good performances in the euro. Dragan Holcer (Hajduk Split, Yugoslavia) - Center Back - 4th in league 28(0). 10(0) for national team, played every game. Czechs: Bombed out of the Euro after a series of disappointing performances in late 67 vs Spain and Ireland. Recovered with two strong games in 68 beating Yugoslavia 3-0 and Brazil 3-2. Only good result for clubs in Europe was Sparta Prague making the QFs of the EC and defeating Anderlecht. Lost to Real in the QF. Vladimír Táborský (Sparta Prague, Czechs) - Center Back: 7th in league. 4(0) for the Czechs. Lost place in the team after bombing out of Euro. Did not play in the 68 games. Did not play for national team again until 71. Adamec, Jozef (Spartak Trnava, Czechoslovakia) – Forward – Winner of Czechoslovakian league – Top scorer in the league – Mitropa Cup winners 1967, runners up 1968 - 25 games, 18 goals. 3(4) for the national team. Famous hat trick vs Brazil and scored in the 3-0 over Yugoslavia. Viktor, Ivo (Dukla Prague, Czechs) - Goalkeeper: 4th in the league. 5(0). Was missing for the dissastrous home loss to Ireland. POTY in Czech. Does not seem like as good of a season as last despite POTY. Hungary:Went out of the Euro 3-2 on aggregate to their boogy team the Soviets. Light scheduale this season. Defeated Austria away, then split home and away with East Germany and the Soviets. Did not play any more games after losing in the Euro QF. Ferencvaros has the best results in Europe making the Fairs Cup final. They defeated good opponents in Zaragoza, Liverpool, Bilbao, and Bologna on the way. Ferencvaros won both domestic titles, while Ujpest placed second in both and was top scoring team in both. Albert, Florian (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Forward: Won the league in 67: 27(28) and in 68: 27(19). Made the Fairs Cup Final: 9(4). National team 4(0). 17th Ballon d'Or. 1967 POTY in Hungary. Missed some of teams big wins this season (2-0 over Soviets in QF and some big wins in the FC). One of the best rated forwards in both domestic seasons. Szucs, Lajos (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Center back, Center mid: Won the league in 67: 28(0) and in 68: 24(3). Made the Fairs Cup Final: 13(0). National team 5(0). 17th Ballon d'Or. 1968 POTY in Hungary. Missed some of teams big wins this season (2-0 over Soviets in QF and some big wins in the FC). Highest rated outfeild player in the league in 68. Bene, Ferenc (Ujpest, Hungay) Forward. 2nd place both season: 30(22), 26(22). Part of forward line that was top scorers in 67 and 68, historically prolific in 68. 3(1) for Hungary. Did not play in games vs Soviets. Gorocs, Janos (Ujpest, Hungay) Attacking mid. 2nd place both season: 29(4), 28(5). Part of forward line that was top scorers in 67 and 68, historically prolific in 68. 3(1) for Hungary. Scored in the win vs Soviets. Dunai, Antal (Ujpest, Hungay) Center Forward: 2nd place and top scorer both season: 30(36), 30(32). Part of forward line that was top scorers in 67 and 68, historically prolific in 68. No room in the national team with Farkas, Bene, and Albert ahead of him. Poland: For the national team failed to advance from group in Euro, decisive moment was a 1-4 loss at home to the French. Also lost 6-3 to Brazil. Best moments were a 4-2 win at Belgium and a 8-0 and 6-1 wins vs Turkey and Norway. Górnik Zabrze impresses in the European Cup. There domestic domination was broken however as Ruch Chorzów won the league after 5 straight wins by Górnik Zabrze. Lubański, Włodzimierz (Górnik Zabrze, Poland) Forward: 33rd in league, top scorer 24(24). Won the domestic cup 4(6). European Cup QF 6(4). For the national team 9(6). Had some famous performances in the EC.
To review what I think of the Euro players thus far. Not sure what the balance will be this season vs the South Americans. Locks for 23 Bobby Charlton George Best Pierino Prati Gianni Rivera Pirri Eusebio Dragan Dzajic Włodzimierz Lubański Players I like who may or may not get in depending on balance. As of now for the group below Bell, Bremner, Peters, Riva, Amancio, Bosiquier, Cruyff, Shesternyov, Fazlagic, and Adamec are my highest rated. Francis Lee Mike Summerbee Colin Bell Alex Stepney Peter Lorimer Billy Bremner Martin Peters Bobby Moore Gunter Netzer Franz Beckenbauer Karl-Heinz Schnellinger Kurt Hamrin Luigi Riva Angelo Domenghini Amancio Antonio Simoes Bernard Bosquier Fleury Di Nallo Johan Cruyff Albert Shesternyov Edward Streltsov Anatoliy Byshovets Ilija Pantelić Mirsad Fazlagic Ilija Petković Jozef Adamec Lajos Szucs Florian Albert
What is it that you don't value about Van Himst and Van Hanegem (see what I gathered about 26 goals being a league record for a midfielder)? Can we really say Lubanski (who strangely and incorrectly didn't receive Ballon d'Or votes) was as an individual a class better as Cruijff? I agree Lubanski tended to do very well, also domestically. 4 goals in one game without pen. against champions Chorzow, 3 goals without pen. in the Polish cup final against the same Chorzow. Looks pretty impressive. edit: I would have Lubanski in my 23 as well.
That doesn't make any sense to me here. We are meant to be judging the players based on this specific season or year. That then can feed into a more general sense of class or quality, but it defeats the object of this exercise if we aren't looking at a precise time period.
Eastern European Footballer of the Year 1968 (ADN, East Germany): Djajic 79% Dunai 9% Asparukhov 6% Adamec 3% Szucs 2% Simeonov 1% Djajic's 79% of the vote is the highest ever apart from Blokhin's 80% in 1975. Votes are cast on a shortlist of six. No Soviets this year and no Lubanski. Positions of Eastern Europeans in the 1968 Ballon d'Or: 3. Djajic, 12= Dunai, 14= Asparukhov, Shesternev, 17= Albert, Szucs, 24= Bene, Khurtsilava, Fazlagic, Osim.
About Táborský https://www.transfermarkt.com/vladimir-taborsky/leistungsdaten/spieler/288440 He played all 6 Euro qualification matches, not 4, of which only 1 match as center back. He also featured vs East Germany in 68. https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimír_Táborský He played 9 league matches for Dukla and 12 for Sparta. (Sparta strengthening for Europe with NT defender from direct competition) In all continental matches he plays as fullback, not center back. Worldfootball lists Táborský as 'left back'.
In my experience, players like Cruyff and Beckenbauer quickly achieved the status of BdO regulars. Basically these are the players with a reputation so high they don't need specific achievements to be considered for the BdO, but rather need a specific reason to NOT be included. It's pretty amazing how quickly this happened with these players, too. It's like every time there's a mention of Holland they name-drop "the dazzling Cruyff" or something, whether or not he's actually done anything. Facchetti is another that seems to have earned this reputation. That's probably why he had so many votes even though it seemed he struggled at times in the Euro. That's also why I'll probably be including him, too (another reason is that I'm struggling to find anyone else to fill my 23). I see Facchetti and Schnellinger in this era as being comparable to the Maldini/Bob Charlie -pair around the turn of the millennium. Basically their reputations were so high the choice for left-back in any best 11 was always between the two of them. It's like people didn't even bother considering any other challengers. I've noticed we think differently about this exercise. IMO the goal is to simulate what a real BdO-vote would have looked like using our criteria. They rarely credited the Kevin Phillips -types, because they knew to be one of the best players in the world required more than a bunch of goals at league level. The system was very effective in weeding out all the pretenders (I don't consider rogue votes by single voters). Their only weakness seemed to be performances in major tournaments. To put too much emphasis on second grade achievements and promoting any successful player into a Ballon-candidate muddies the waters and creates a hodge-podge world where every player and team is of the same class. A perfect mining ground for the partizan and overzealous blowhards, who have an agenda of crowning mediocrities from their own nation/team into legitimate legends.
The Ballon d'Or is just not watertight. Schillaci won almost the whole thing in 1990, like Pancev did in 1991 (less extreme as Schillaci and Phillips). There are also discrepancies with the club team & national team vote held by FF, as well as the all-time vote they sometimes did. In 1990 Schillaci almost won it while MvB was omitted entirely (Serie A topscorer; decisive performer in the EC final, the Intercontinental Cup match and the Brugge match in 1990-91 with Belgium #4 in the coefficients), and yet he ranked very strong in the 1990 all-time poll organized by the very same France Football! Paolo Futre in 1987 is a somewhat similar example to Phillips in 2000 I'd say (admittedly very unlucky with injuries, Futre).