USWNT sues USSF 2019 version

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by lil_one, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. HouseofCards

    HouseofCards Member

    Nov 26, 2012
    It is not necessarily true that men's games are more entertaining than women's sports. But if you look at any professional sport, the value is derived from entertainment value, not winning. Manchester United has consistently been the most valuable English team, haven't won in years. The Cowboys are the most valuable NFL franchise by quite a ways. The Knicks and the Lakers are the top 2 in the NBA. Obviously value isn't based on winning as you would suggest. It is entertainment that people want and therefore pay the most money for. Now some might find women's sports more entertaining than men's sports, but that's not where the money is being spent.
     
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  2. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    For a national team, should results count more than the entertainment value? You are dead wrong, I am afraid.
     
  3. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    The Chicago Bulls haven't won anything in 20 years, since the Jordan days, in fact many fans in Chicago will tell you they have been horrible as of late and yet they are in the top 3 teams in attendance and value in the NBA from what I heard last.
     
  4. HouseofCards

    HouseofCards Member

    Nov 26, 2012
    You can disagree, but that doesn't make me wrong. If the US Paralympic soccer team wins their world championship, should they be paid the same as the USWNT?
     
  5. HouseofCards

    HouseofCards Member

    Nov 26, 2012
    I'm stealing this from another message board. I think it is the best analysis I have seen, and deals mostly with facts.

     
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  6. McSkillz

    McSkillz Member+

    ANGEL CITY FC, UCLA BRUINS
    United States
    Nov 22, 2014
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You don’t think they deserve higher value, that’s fine. Go back to the men’s rights forum and preach to the choir about how awesome men are and how women players suck because they are too slow. Then have a laugh about that revolutionary statement and pat each other on the back so you don’t feel threatened by the lawsuit. Meanwhile all my hard earned money is going towards supporting the female players that work their tail off getting us to the finals every four years and put off having a family so they can make barely enough money to retire on while all the mediocre men’s players can buy a yacht and screw all their “side chicks” in paradise without a single worry about money. We have enough money in the US to set a precedent and show to the rest of the World that women athletes are highly valued in our culture and not just jokes. I’m done defending them to the likes of you. The girls may have zero support on here but I will always have their back on equal rights.
     
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  7. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    There's a lot of assumptions in this especially how male and female players behave. You're better than this.

    Again, are they really fighting for equal pay or equal rights? Please remember, this system is why players like Mace have zero chance of going to WWC 2019 whether they are good enough or not.
     
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  8. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Sheesh, I give up.
     
  9. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some of you are dragging out old arguments and are quick to jump to a conclusion without all the facts. More than that, its not 2016 anymore. The landscape has changed. None of us know what the new CBA says, although by rumors it was said to deal with the contract issue by slowly reducing them and allowing more people to get called up to the WNT. Also please stop with the six-figure salary quotes. Under the old CBA, that's an exaggeration, and unless you know the women got a huge salary raise in the 2017 CBA, its inaccurate.

    This lawsuit is also further reaching than just equal pay; its about equal treatment and discrimination. I don't think we have to look far to say the women are not treated equally to the men, in terms of promotion and travel.

    Personally, I'm a bit disappointed that it seems to me that the women are not exactly arguing in good faith. In other words, I don't think they actually want exactly what the men are getting, but I'm not sure they should. There are unique attributes of the women's game (the differences in the club soccer scene, the benefit of maternity leave, etc.) that I'd think should make the contract for the women different.

    However, I think the women have a case to make. But again, I don't have all the facts. None of us do. If anything this raises more questions for me:
    -What was said at the negotiation table? Did USSF ever offer equal pay with equal pay structure? What was the revenue sharing model?
    -What's in the new CBA? (I hope that at least this will come out as the lawsuit stretches on.)
    -What would better, if not equal, pay for the women look like? Is there an out-of-the-box solution?
     
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  10. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    Thank you. I especially loved your comment about the "men's rights forum." Sad--and bitterly ironic--that sports fans who love a women's sport offer so little support for women fighting for equal rights.

    I detest Internet/social media anonymity. Sure would be interesting to know the gender of participants in this discussion. Mine is male.
     
  11. McSkillz

    McSkillz Member+

    ANGEL CITY FC, UCLA BRUINS
    United States
    Nov 22, 2014
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #86 McSkillz, Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    Mines is female. The men’s rights forum was a bit of a sour joke but that’s what it feels like anytime stuff like this gets brought up. I assume most of these people are males but who knows. Some women can be just as unsupportive too for some reason. Many of us in society are unfortunately brought up believing we don’t deserve great things like the boys but I always spoke out against that in school, even if the boys laughed at me and called me a “men hater”, which I’m certainly not. Even when I was on Reddit, browsing the MLS sub which will make game threads supporting the USWNT, it was disappointing to see them being so unsupportive when it came to these issues. There was even a comment made by a user that said he was incredibly shocked that the USWNT vs England game garnered over 700,000 viewers and the MLS games that weekend were under 400,000 views. So many excuses like the game was on at the bars but nobody was watching, or that the time slot caused it. It was never about maybe people like watching the USWNT or the popularity of them. If someone made the latter comments, they were downvoted to -100. So while this country certainly prides itself on the success of the women, they sure have a funny way of showing support when the women want more equitable standards. The ones who come out of the woodworks and comment in the women’s forum are espiecially interesting. They must feel really threatened by this if they feel the need to copy and paste a dissertation on how great male players are. There’s of course the FC Dallas U-17 7-0 match article that must be bookmarked on every male soccer fans computer under the folder name, “why the USWNT sucks” or “facts in case women get overly praised”
     
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  12. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    Thanks, McSkillz, for sharing all this. It's great that you spoke out in school, where I'm sure it was often rough. And it's great that you're speaking out here.

    Recently, when choosing women to honor by wearing their names on their jerseys, Megan Rapinoe chose Audre Lorde. Christen Press chose Sojourner Truth. Becky Sauerbrunn chose Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Alex Morgan chose Abby Wambach. Carli Lloyd chose Malala Yousafzai. Crystal Dunn chose Serena Williams. And there were many other terrific choices. If these women read your words, they'd feel solidarity with you just as you feel that with them.

    I support the women of the U.S. National Team on the field, in the courts, and anywhere else.
     
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  13. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    You are dead wrong and do not want to accept it. We are talking about soccer and not paralympic soccer, which is not the same. What we are talking about is pay for the same sport for men and women and we are not talking about pay difference between different sports. You seem to have a twisted mind.
     
  14. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If the USWNTPA wants equality, they need to drop the contracts. Otherwise they aren't talking equality but superiority and shutting out anyone who challenges that.
     
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  15. HouseofCards

    HouseofCards Member

    Nov 26, 2012
    The problem is that many of the legitimate complaints about per diem, travel conditions, and field conditions were addressed, and remedied in the new CBA (at least according to public statements by the players and USSF). There is a lot of insinuation that the USWNT offered "equal" and that was categorically denied by USSF, but that would be contradictory to statements made by the Becky Sauerbrunn about their new CBA stating they wanted "equitable" not "equal".

    https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2017/04/05/uswnt-us-soccer-women-cba-labor-talks-agreement

    Personally, I go back and forth on the best solution (it's so much more complicated than just a simple fix). There are times I read things and say, fine, come up with a commissioned based pay that could be used for both programs, institute it across the board, and if equal is what they want, give it to them. The problem with that is, I think that would tremendously hurt the women's game, end the NWSL subsidies, and there are no winners.

    Another issue I have along these lines, is the argument is often pointed out about how USSF helped MLS. 100% absolutely agree about this, but how much money were the men making as USSF did that? The answer is a whole lot less than they are now. It strikes me as double dipping to want the same levels of support for NWSL as MLS back then, while wanting the same levels of pay on the national team side currently.

    I truly think the best solution is to continually reduce the number of contracts while propping up the NWSL so that the players can have the NWSL become their full time job. I do like the idea of USSF paying lump sums to the clubs to then use toward their salaries, and stop paying the players directly, but USSF loses control then, and I doubt they go for it. Unfortunately, it's a process to get there, and won't happen overnight.
     
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  16. HouseofCards

    HouseofCards Member

    Nov 26, 2012
    But see, you are dead wrong, because the Paralympic soccer team is under the USSF umbrella (as is Beach soccer, Futsal, and all YNT), and is a protected class. The argument that they all work for USSF and therefore deserve equal compensation is a natural conclusion if the argument is the women deserve it purely because they work for USSF just like the men.
     
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  17. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    What do you mean I am dead wrong? I take it that you cannot distinguish between American Football and what the rest of the world call Football. You may be reminded that all motor racing from Formula One, Formula Two, Sports car, etc. are under the control of the FIA but they are not the same as one and other. All the different motor racing leagues are not paid the same. To remind you, we are talking about men and women in the same sport and not about different spots. You are out of your league in this discussion and talking nonsense all the time. Good luck to you but please brush up your knowledge first.
     
  18. Spartak

    Spartak Member

    Nov 6, 1999
    Philly
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Men's Soccer and Woman's Soccer are not the same sport. As Men's/Woman's Basketball/Tennis/Golf/etc. are also not the same sports. If people don't understand this point there is no use continuing a debate. First you have to agree on the facts before having any worthwhile conversation.
     
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  19. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you'll be hard pressed to convince someone that a sport that is played with the same rules with the same name is not the same sport only because it is played by different genders...
     
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  20. McSkillz

    McSkillz Member+

    ANGEL CITY FC, UCLA BRUINS
    United States
    Nov 22, 2014
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Could have fooled me, I seriously need some new glasses and find out what kind of sport the women are playing on the grass. I know 100 percent it’s not American football but I’m going to put my money on field hockey without the sticks and see if I got it correct.
     
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  21. Spartak

    Spartak Member

    Nov 6, 1999
    Philly
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By "same rules" I guess you are ignoring the part in the rule book that prohibits Men from playing Woman's soccer. That is a rule. That is the point being made about saying Woman's soccer is the same sport as Men's soccer. Because the same argument could be made for "Paralympic" soccer. Both are closed systems.
     
  22. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That doesn't make them different sports. It also doesn't necessarily protect USSF from a gender discrimination ruling against them. You do, however, bring up a valid point about whether this should be extended to the other national teams.
     
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  23. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    Thank you.
     
  24. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    LOL
     
  25. Spartak

    Spartak Member

    Nov 6, 1999
    Philly
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you honestly think that's what I'm saying? I'm not. I think most people understand that the term "sports" are a category. Hence, "Men's" & "Woman's" soccer are not the same. Hence, the argument that since they both have the same employer and are both playing the same sport is fallacious. If we were to go down that road, the same argument could be made for WNBA & NBA players having the same employer and playing the same sport therefore they should be paid the same.

    There are arguments to be made for the woman making more money but that is not one.
     
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