CONCACAF Champions League Coefficient

Discussion in 'CONCACAF Champions Cup' started by ArsenalMetro, Sep 30, 2009.

  1. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    3 MLS vs LMX matchups in the first round, that would make that round interesting.
     
  2. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    New tournament format! The Concacaf League is expanding to 22 teams, starting with the 2019 edition.

    https://www.concacafleague.com/en/article/concacaf-announces-scotiabank-concacaf-league-expansion

    The format remains roughly the same, with the addition of a 12-team preliminary round. The six winners of those home-and-away series will play the 10 teams automatically given berths in the Round of 16.

    Per the link above, the preliminary round teams will be:
    BLZ 1
    CAN 2
    CFU 3
    CFU 4
    CRC 3
    SLV 2
    SLV 3
    GUA 2
    GUA 3
    HON 3
    NCA 2
    PAN 3

    Automatic Round of 16 entrants are:
    CFU 2
    CRC 1
    CRC 2
    SLV 1
    GUA 1
    HON 1
    HON 2
    NCA 1
    PAN 1
    PAN 2

    So, for our purposes here, the point structure is going to remain roughly the same. Changes in italics:

    CONCACAF League
    - Preliminary round: each match is worth .5 points (draw = 0.25 points each)
    - Advancement from the preliminary round grants .5 bonus points

    - Round of 16 on: each match is worth 1 point (draw = 0.5 points each)
    - Advancement from a round grants 1 bonus point
    - Champion earns 1 bonus point

    CONCACAF Champions League
    - Each match is worth 3 points (draw = 1.5 points each)
    - Advancement from a round grants 2 bonus points
    - Champion earns 2 bonus points
     
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  3. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Expansion is good! Though I'm wishing they had used the opportunity to also expand the number of CL spots that go to the CCL...

    Also, how will the CPL pick its first CL participant? Are they just gonna pick whoever is leading the league as of a month or two before the CL begins?
     
  4. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    CPL starts on April 27 and last year's Concacaf League started on July 31. If you stick to the same timeline, there are 7 weekends before the 2019 Gold Cup and 14 before the Concacaf League starts. If they play through the Gold Cup, you could get a nice double round-robin in and give the winner (or leader, however you want to categorize that) a couple of weeks notice for the CL.

    Also, I missed a thing, because there's a new qualification method for the CCL:

    "In addition to qualifying its champion to the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League, the tournament will qualify an additional five teams. At the end of the competition, clubs will we ranked 1-15, in accordance with the competition tie-breaking procedure. The top five ranked clubs will automatically qualify for the 2020 edition of the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League."

    I don't think this will change anything about these coefficients.
     
  5. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #630 Yoshou, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    Maybe send the CPL team that went the furthest in Canadian Championship? Or send the two finalists the first year, but CPL champ from then on.
     
  6. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Oh! Nice

    Looking back at your first post, I guess I should have noticed that a lot of "1" teams are now automatic CL qualifiers instead of automatic CCL qualifiers...

    So we have the regular 9 NAFU teams automatically qualify for the CCL, and then ALL CFU&UNCAF clubs (plus the CPL team and minus the CFU champion) go into the CL to pick the 6 of the 7 other CCL participants (1 champion + 5 other top-ranked teams). Gotcha!
     
  7. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    Probably impacts Canada, as Canada 2 will be a CPL team - most likely be the 4th or 5th best team in the country - and I'd expect a huge gap between the 3rd (MLS) and 4th (CPL or USL) teams.

    If you look at the UEFA coefficient, they don't count European participation from Welsh teams Cardiff City or Swansea on Wales coefficient, but on England's.

    Perhaps the same should be done here. Or perhaps Canada 1 and Canada 2 should be tallied separately.

    Other than Canada, I don't think any nation got extra spots in the two tournaments ... notwithstanding things like Guatemala in 2018.
     
  8. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #633 ArsenalMetro, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    I meant that the additional CL teams qualifying for CCL isn't going to change anything about how I calculate the coefficient; the preliminary round addition is all that will be different for 2019-20, barring some other major format change.

    Canada's score is basically going to get cut in half going forward, unless the CPL is way better than I expect it to be.

    That's because those Welsh teams don't qualify through Welsh competitions. The Canadian teams here can exclusively qualify for continental play through Canadian competitions, so they have been and will continue to be assessed through that lens.

    Rating the qualification slots individually is what Concacaf does, so you can hit the Wiki page for the various tournaments to see those numbers.
     
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  9. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    If you keep the same methodology, yes probably cut almost in half.

    Would be interesting to see a version though that treats Canada 2 separately from Canada 1.
     
  10. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It shouldn't be hard for ArsenalMetro to make lines for Canada total, Canada 1, and Canada 2. The CPL champion will face easier competition in the CL than the Canadian Championship winner faces in the CCL.

    If all you knew about Cardiff City, Swansea City, and Wrexham (a Welsh club in the fifth level in England) was what competitions they played in, you wouldn't know they weren't in England. If all you knew about the Canadian MLS clubs was what competitions they played in, you would know they're not in the USA.
     
  11. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    No love for Newport (who are playing Man City in the FA Cup this weekend)? :)

    (there's a couple of other smaller Welsh clubs in the lower English league, and a couple of oddities along the Scottish Border as well).
     
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  12. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just read about Newport County. I though there were only three Welsh clubs playing in English leagues, but I was wrong. Newport County has moved back and forth between playing in England and Wales, and their field is beat up because they share it with two rugby clubs.
     
    edcalvi repped this.
  13. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merthyr_Town_F.C.

    This one too.
     
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  14. dinamo_zagreb

    dinamo_zagreb Member+

    Jun 27, 2010
    San Jose, CA / Zagreb, Croatia
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    If I understand it correctly, all teams but MLS and MEX will have to play in CL (or Caribbean Championship) to qualify to CCL. Hilarious! And all teams but MLS and MEX teams will play throughout the whole season. If Costa Rican team qualifiy to CCL final, their journey will last from August to May.

    Soon, there will be only MLS/LMX supercup to decide continental champion.
     
  15. DGreat

    DGreat Moderator
    Staff Member

    CD Guadalajara
    Mexico
    Oct 5, 2007
    El Ombligo
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    MLS has been spood fed. They have done nothing to deserve such pass, they should play in the CL too
     
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  16. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #641 ArsenalMetro, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
    Strong agree.

    I'd keep Mexican teams out of it though.

    Since this is the coefficient thread, I'll expand on my preferred qualification system, assuming the following requirements:

    - same number of qualifiers as the new format (10 CCL, 22 CL)
    - Canada is restricted to 2 entrants for the 2019-20 cycle, but become part of the normal distribution beyond that, so these numbers will focus on the "beyond that" part
    - the CFU gets 1 CCL entrant and 3 CL entrants unless they hit the upper reaches of the coefficients
    - no federation can have more than 4 overall entrants
    - the defending CCL champion automatically qualifies

    Given that, I'd allocate berths based on the coefficient rankings like this, with the holder of that slot as of the end of the 2017-18 continental season in parentheses:

    #1 - 3 CCL, 0 CL (Mexico)
    #2 - 2 CCL, 1 CL (Canada)
    #3 - 2 CCL, 1 CL (United States)
    #4 - 1 CCL, 2 CL (Costa Rica)
    #5 - 0 CCL, 3 CL (Panama)
    #6 - 0 CCL, 3 CL (Honduras)
    #7 - 0 CCL, 3 CL (Guatemala)
    #8 - 0 CCL, 3 CL (El Salvador)
    #9 - 0 CCL, 2 CL (Nicaragua)
    #10 - 0 CCL, 1 CL (Belize)
    CFU - 1 CCL, 3 CL
    Champion - 1 CCL, 0 CL

    This took me like 8 minutes to put together, so I welcome your critiques.
     
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  17. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My one concern is that it’s probably too many Canadian clubs. While I understand they’ve likely earned it via the coefficient, that is likely to take a pretty good hit thanks to the entry of the CPL clubs and the most likely result of them getting 3 spots is that 2 CPL clubs get in.
     
  18. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    If we're imaging those allocations as for 2020-21 (meaning they'd be set based on the final numbers from the 2018-19 cycle), you could restrict Canada to 1 CCL direct entrant and 2 CL entrants for another year or two and pass the second CCL spot down to #5 temporarily. So, remove the shackles from Canada for 2022-23, and they'd get whatever berths they earned for their performances through 2020-21; that's two cycles of full CPL Concacaf League participation, which is going to effectively cut Canada's coefficient by two-thirds in those years.

    At that point, I'd still expect Canada to be #2 or #3 with a coefficient of like...55-60, because their last two (very good) seasons would be included. But unless the CPL is way better than it seems like it will be, Canada would drop pretty quickly in the ensuing years. Delayed full participation would probably only result in one season of a CPL team getting a (probably undeserved) direct CCL berth.
     
  19. Goaler

    Goaler Member

    Bristol City, Slavia Prague, Pacific FC, AS Roma, Atletico Madrid, Vancouver Whitecaps, Philadelphia Union
    England
    Apr 11, 2007
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Czechia
    I don't think so, as there is actually only 1 Canadian club in for sure, the other simply has a chance.

    We don't know exactly what the CPL will be like, but to have them in the CL will help, they could dominate CL, who knows.
     
  20. Goaler

    Goaler Member

    Bristol City, Slavia Prague, Pacific FC, AS Roma, Atletico Madrid, Vancouver Whitecaps, Philadelphia Union
    England
    Apr 11, 2007
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Czechia
    If Canada's #1 berth keeps performing well, I don't expect much of a drop.
     
  21. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1) big if
    2) if Canada 2 doesn't perform well, their coefficients get cut in half. There absolutely will be a drop, it's just a matter of how big that drop will be.
     
  22. Goaler

    Goaler Member

    Bristol City, Slavia Prague, Pacific FC, AS Roma, Atletico Madrid, Vancouver Whitecaps, Philadelphia Union
    England
    Apr 11, 2007
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Czechia
    But there are other nations in CL now too which are not in CCL anymore, Canada has 1 berth automatic into CCL, so they should be ok, other nations can drop easily by being in CL.
     
  23. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #648 ArsenalMetro, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
    ...right, like Canada.

    The coefficient is "total number of points earned (as I value them) divided by the number of participating clubs from a country."

    So, take 2017-18. Toronto earned 21 points. They were the only participant from Canada, so that 21 is divided by 1, equaling 21. Now, imagine that Valour FC or whoever also represented Canada in the Concacaf League and lost both legs in the first round. Canada's total would then be (21+0)/2 = 10.5.

    Unless the CPL representative wins the Concacaf League and makes a deep run in the Champions League, Canada's coefficient score relative to recent years is going to drop, and significantly. It's just a matter of how much.
     
  24. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    They won’t dominate the CL. Honduras and Costa Rica will continue to do so followed by Panama. Not sure where in the CL the CPL will fall but they won’t be dominating anytime soon. Costa Rican clubs are decent
     
  25. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The proposal was to have 2 Canadian teams go directly into CCL and one in CL. I was disagreeing with the proposal because the CPL teams are likely to cause a drop in Canada's coefficient.
     

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