Containment zone: the Klinnsman / Donovan fault line

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DHC1, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Funny title and comments from LD. Was he not telling the truth or just couldnt handle it after the fact. It seems like he didnt think it was much of lock as folks here.


    Landon Donovan says he's no longer a lock to make final USMNT roster

    For the first time in more than a decade, Landon Donovan's fate with the US national team might just be out of his hands.

    At least, that’s how the LA Galaxy and longtime USMNT star sees it as he circles the fourth and final World Cup of his storied career. Now 32 years old and facing the very real possibility that he’s no longer the Americans’ driving force on the field, Donovan said Monday that the uncertainty surrounding his role – or even his spot on the roster – is something he hasn’t felt in years.

    “For me personally, I liken it to 2002,” Donovan said before the team’s training at Stanford University. “In 2006 and 2010 I knew for the most part, unless I was awful, that I was going to make the team. This time it’s more similar to ’02, when I wasn’t sure. In that way, it’s as competitive for me as it’s been in a long time.”

    “You can really make the case for any of the guys here to make the squad,” he added. “So there are going to be some difficult decisions for the coaches.”
     
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    If LD being a distraction caused JJ, FJ, CD, Bedoya, Cameron and/or MB (for example) to play worse as a team because there's a dissenting voice in the room and therefore not everyone is paddling in the same direction, that's makes our team worse. This is true even if he is better than the bottom 5 people on the roster.

    To precipitate your question, I don't have proof but the point is that if JK thought that this was a risk then a case can be made for leaving LD at home.

    At the end of the day, you seem to be saying that you have to bring your best players (and I think that LD was certainly among the best 23) but sometimes it's better to leave them out of the squad even if they can produce.

    The risk for the coach to cutting a valuable high profile player is that if we didn't make it out of the group, JK would have been tar and feathered and with reasonable justification. I also know that you don't really care about results in this instance because the decision was so poor in your mind.

    Question: Should Sweden have taken Ibrahimovic to Russia when he expressed willingness? Should be coach have been cut?
     
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  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
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  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    That would suck if it happened, but wouldnt be the end of his career. He could easily just go back to Dortmund or find another club. I dont think not making it Chelsea qualifies for being an "American flop".

    CP has been a vital part of Dortmund for the past couple years. His role this year is most likely due to the fact he didnt extend his contract and was sold. This is just pure nonsense. Yes, he will have big pressure, but also seems built for it. The kid has shown an amazing amount of composure and mental toughness.
     
  5. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Looks like we just disagree (although I never said flopping at Chelsea would end his career). That's fine. I won't stoop to calling your view nonsense.
     
  6. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nobody understood then, because it was unhinged, much like almost all of your commentary on this topic. I'd advise you to just take a break from discussing LD, but given your unhealthy obsession we all know that isn't going to happen...
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You said this which is nonsense...

    Things go badly and suddenly we're talking a notable American flop.
     
  8. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    You don't think it will be noteworthy disappointment if a $73 million dollar player fails to make a significant impact at the new club? Sounds like you're living in a fantasy world. I've already seen a fair bit of skepticism from some Chelsea fans given he's not starting. If things go badly I imagine the move will be seen like an amplified version of Altidore at Sunderland.
     
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  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'll just repost what I said before....

    That would suck if it happened, but wouldnt be the end of his career. He could easily just go back to Dortmund or find another club. I dont think not making it Chelsea qualifies for being an "American flop".
     
  10. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    [moved from another thread]

    I'll take your anti-LD bait!

    Here's CP's 2017 six goals (and FWIW, I am a huge admirer of CP):

    Honduras @ Home - 1
    Venezuela @ Home - 1 (Friendly)
    T&T @ Home - 2
    Panama @ Home - 1
    T&T @ Away - 1

    Here's LD's 2007 nine goals:

    Denmark @ Home - 1 (Friendly)
    Mexico @ Home - 1 (Friendly)
    Ecuador @ Home - 3 (Friendly)
    El Salvador @ Home - 1
    Panama @ Home - 1
    Canada @ Home - 1
    Mexico @ Home - 1

    I think the degree of difficulty in 2007 far exceeds 2017 but YMMV.

    The good news is that CP is young and his he did better as a 19 year old than LD did (although LD had an outstanding 20th year with five goals including three against WC teams - South Korea, Mexico and Poland)
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It wasnt anti-LD, but realizing the talent of CP.

    Im not sure Id include friendlies, especially January camp ones. I'd think 2013 GC would be a better guage. I'd also think you would want to track assists and goals created... for example Lletget's tap in or Dempsey's free kick against Honduras.

    The most talented attacking player comes down to his ability to beat players off the dribble, finishing, combining with others, athleticism, and mental toughness.
     
  12. Soccer888

    Soccer888 Red Card

    Mar 28, 2011
    True. Salah comes to mind here.
     
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  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Yes, I watched every game live and probably watched them a second time after waking up. I found the Germany game online about a year ago and watch it.

    So again I will ask which defenses was he abusing? I think you are letting time and exaggeration get into your assessment.

    LD was a role player at the WC and played out wide or uo front. I thought his best game of the tournament was actually against Poland.

    Now the part about CP is quite silly. He is already the most talented soccer player we have ever produced. He had the best hex I have ever seen by a player. He has years of experience in the Bundesliga and Champions League. He has has solid games where he abused defenders against some of the top teams in the world like Bayern Munich and Real Madrid. I don't see that kind of player not starting on any of our World cup teams. The only wild card would have been that idiot Arena, but he hadn't grown his affinity for average MLS players yet, so I think we would have been safe.
     
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  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Thanks for putting this in this thread, bsky22
     
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  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    As stated before, CP is already the most talented player we have ever had. Now it looks like he will be the most influential player ever to grow the game in america. Little LD was free to do whatever he wanted, but the thought he could have grown the game so much almost 20 years ago is why some folks were so disappointed that he stayed in MLS. LD squandered so much talent and convinced so many players that playing in MLS was reasonable path. Interestingly, not much has come through MLS since LD until recently.

    I'd add that all of this coincided with JK repeatedly urging players to go abroad also seems to have helped with the wave of players going to Germany and other euro destinations. Now if we only had a coach who truly meant he doesnt care where players play but just that they are good. All the complaints about JK not being fair is crap compared blatant over use of average MLS players by Arena and now Berhalter.

     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    [pulled from another thread about whether USSF has an MLS preference]

    I find that people who find BS to be unreadable now are usually the ones who led the charge vs. JK. They couldn't get enough of both slagging him when he made his surprising decision to cut LD and then carrying on consistently even now (although it's thankfully slowing down).

    This is not directed at you as I don't recall if you are one of those people who were vocal and passionate about JK/LD
     
  17. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    JK was an easy target because he didn't explain himself and nobody could figure out what he was doing. Poor play could be blamed on him. It turns out that much of the poor play was the players.

    Arena/Gulati and most of the people you are referencing totally misdiagnosed the situation. It wasn't that the players weren't given a consistent game plan or were not comfortable enough, it was that they were not good enough.

    Using hindsight, JK got results in the Copa by playing a very physical style that got results. However, that approach was not going to work as Dempsey and Jones aged out and Bradley lost a step or two.

    Can't figure out what Arena did at the end of the Hex. Most of his good results can be put down to the emergence of Pulisic. And most of those in home games against the worse teams.
     
  18. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    The Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe.
     
  19. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your blasphemy is unforgivable, and your invitation to our next meeting is rescinded!
     
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  20. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    Damn man! I knew the players just weren't good enough for Klinsmann! That's what he was trying to tell us all along! (Or wait, not when he was campaigning for the job but after like his second year.) And then, we tried to listen to him, but then, poor guy, American soccer fans, media and administrators were too soccer stupid to understand!

    But we like, tried to let him do everything he wanted anyway - even cut some of our best players right before a World Cup - but we still went backwards in our style of play, bombed out of the Olympics a couple times, and the Gold Cup, and failed to make the ConFed Cup and lost our Concacaf hegemony. And we watched him actively create an enormous rift in the culture of our national team program - what was that saying about a house divided again? - and get off to a super-predicatbly disastrous start to our next World Cup campaign. So there he was furiously digging a new hole for us, and deflecting responsibility, failing at all the goals he identified as critical for our program and ruining morale... and then we replaced him???

    We just. Don't. Get it.
     
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  21. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I don't think anyone implied any of that.

    In more simpler terms, JK's terrible coaching masked the fact the players being used were not good enough. That replacing JK with any kind of reasonable coach would have turned things around.

    Since we failed to qualify then we can look back and wonder. If you think JK is a horrible coach (I think so) then one or more of these things have to be true:

    1. Arena was also a horrible coach
    2. The players were not good enough

    Even if I agree that they waited too long to replace JK; what does it really matter? The team played their worst soccer in the Fall of 2017, long after JK was gone.

    This is only relevant, to me now, because if we just say Arena was a horrible coach, then we can repeat the mistake. GB has already called in six players used at the end of the Hex. If Jozy ever gets healthy that will be seven. Nagbe and Guzan, if not being punished, could be nine. GB called Omar! That is nuts.
     
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  22. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal

    winner winner, chicken dinner.

    The players not being good enough is a relative thing. They were good enough to qualify.
     
  23. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    #198 Honore de Ballsac, Apr 29, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    Full rep for half of the above. And because I over-ranted. In reply:

    Don't agree with this proposition. I actually think Arena and the players were good enough. In the end, luck played a big role in our failure. But Klinsmann's role was many times greater.

    For one, he was officially and unofficially in charge of everything long enough to be the VERY LAST guy who should complain about a "Lost Generation" of U.S. players.

    Now if you happen to think Julian Green and an injured Aron Johansson were better picks for the 2014 squad than Landon Donovan, you might have overrated Euro pedigree and underrated some players right under your nose. Amirite?

    But you did worse/more than that. Because those 2014 roster decisions were your way of putting your money where your very big mouth was.

    How is it, with the imbalances of resources and talent and culture and pedigree, that we were able to dominate Mexico for so long?

    This is how:
    Our national team itself had a great culture and self-belief. Mexico could see it coming from miles and months away. Mexico had far superior talent and an entire major nation obsessed with them, along with discord and self-doubt. Our superpower was our mentality.

    And Jurgen Klinsmann deliberately skull-********ed that mentality.

    Arena and the players... Simply did not recover in time to right the ship, make up for a bad start in the Hex and survive some ludicrously bad bounces and reffing.
    We have not recovered yet.

    Good point about repeating the mistake. But IMO...
    A: GB needs to rebuild the mentality and the culture. Part of that is making a stand about not throwing out players, not making a clear break with our past, not disrespecting what our veterans have accomplished and given to the program. Not losing Omar Gonzalez' number to score points with a bunch of vocal internet fans with questionable perspectives. (You gotta admit they're there. And vocal. And IMO US Soccer has paid too much attention to them, going all the way back to the Klinsmann hire.)

    B. Coaches should be expected and allowed to make a few quizzical, gut decisions here and there... like, say, a Tuesday night friendly from BBVA Compass stadium three years before the next World Cup. And fans certainly have the right to complain about them. But we have to remember we're not as close to the situation, that GB knows Omar as a player very well, and that it's NOT the World Cup. It is in fact far, far from the World Cup, thankfully.
     
  24. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If JK was such a big part of the failure, then why is it that his WC 2014, one that we actually qualified for, brought up?

    Nobody cares that Arena got to the WC QF in 2002. Nor did it matter that his team got blown away in WC 2006. Because what mattered is that Arena couldn't beat anybody away from home, couldn't get a point out of Costa Rica at home, and lost to Trinidad and Tobago's C-team because he was an awful coach.

    Yes, the players selected in the pool could have gotten a result out of that game. They had scraped out results for a year as Arena focused on a simple, somewhat-effective 4-4-2 made up of MLS players + Pulisic. MLS-based teams made up of periphery MLS players like Pontius, McCarty, and Opara, could've gotten a result out of a Trinidadian team made up of mainly local players and youth prospects.

    But because Arena was dumb, he played an awful team for the circumstances. He selected the same team as the previous week, so they went from a pristine Floridian playing surface to a Trinidadian marshland. His team was comprised chiefly of much older players, in need of rest. And the way he set them up was vulnerable to quick counter-attacks, speed, and athleticism.

    You cannot hold all of these ideas as true: we had dozens of players capable of getting a point in Trinidad (including those mercifully untouched by JK's triggering comments about MLS not being a top league), and Arena set them up poorly, but it was actually JK's fault for *psychic damage* he did to the "mentality" of the team over a year earlier with a different squad.

    Yikes.
     
  25. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Unfortunately there are plenty of what ifs and blame to go around, but Arena is the last one in charge and regardless of what Klinsmann did or didn't do, he should have been able to qualify the team.
     
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