Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

For me, Suarez was the best player of the season at the club level, however the fact that he did not participate in the Copa América ends up leaning for Lionel Messi.

 

Should we talk about the competition in this tournament? I know you can only face what's ahead of you and all, but Panama, Bolivia and Venezuela are just pub level teams. We have all witnessed Panama at the WC18 and Bolivia/Venezuela have similar rankings to them at that time.

USA might have been decent, but looks like they are on their way down.

The only tough game Argentina had didn't turn out that well once again.

 

Dybala maybe? Just putting his name out there, there are already 2 Juventus players on the list though.

 

In my previous ranking, 20 of the 23 players that you place in your top 23 match. I had De Bruyne, Agüero and Alexis Sánchez in this ranking, but I did not have Vardy, Vidal and Mkhyrtayan.
Regarding the Top 23, although I've always liked Messi much more than Cristiano Ronaldo, in 2016, Cristiano Ronaldo won practically all the individual trophies, which, perhaps objectively, the Portuguese would deserve the first place, ahead of Messi, with Suárez in third place, although his campaign was sensational.

 

I had a serious dilemma with Pepe, he really had a great season at all levels and I just picked one central defender (it has not been a balanced list in terms of position).

 

Potential candidate for me, although I think he's a more serious candidate in the list that comes (2017). I think Buffon and Pogba were the strongest candidates of Juventus and Dybala would be the next followed by Bonucci.

 

btw if you're talking about 2017, do you mean the 2016/17 season or are you trying to split stuff up in calendar years?

 

No, everything referring to at the club level is about the period of the season.

 

I love the work done on compiling those lists, but TBH, they're ridiculously Americentric. That one, for example, is 50+% South Americans. Compare to actual Ballon D'or votes from recent decades, even when Brazil or Argentina had supposedly golden generations (generally something like 5/23 from SA). Those lists make it seem like these countries are the equivalent to Canada in hockey.

 

That's the preliminary list that Tom made. In his final review of the 1950's he dropped Roger Byrne, Sergio Cervato and Julinho and included instead of them to Igor Netto, Nílton Santos and Néstor Rossi in the top 23.

I thought it was very strange that Tom left aside Julinho in 1957, especially because in that season he reached his highest continental achievement at club level in Europe reaching the final of the European Cup.

Nílton Santos and Garrincha (in addition to Didi) were part of the Botafogo that won the Carioca Championship with a sensational style and Nílton Santos was apparently one of the stellar players of the 1957 Copa América at the beginning of the year until he was injured and couldn't play the last 2 matches (against Peru and the definitor against Argentina).

Internationally Garrincha certainly doesn't seem to have a solid case. He was not a starter for Brazil in the Copa América (he was Pepe's substitute) and despite he played as a starter in the qualifying matches for the 1958 World Cup against Peru, apparently he was not so brilliant at this stage.

Canhoteiro is a kind of legendary player acclaimed for his abilities, but very irregular during his career. However, it seems that 1957 was his peak year being the main player of Sao Paulo that won the Carioca Championship (even over the mature star Zizinho), at least for the references.

By then Rafael Asca was considered here the best Peruvian goalkeeper and one of the best emerged until then, but I guess what gives him a jump to this level are his superb performances in the Copa América and many remember a memorable performance against Brazil at the Maracaná Stadium for qualifying for the World Cup, just beaten by a folha seca of Didi.

What I also know from references is that in 1957, immediately after the departure of Omar Sívori to Italy, Norberto Menéndez took the lead role in the attack of River Plate that won the Argentine League with authority and Roberto Zárate was the tournament's topscorer (it was the only time he was).

Federico Vairo was another of the main players of that imposing River Plate at that time and also formed a very good pair with Pedro Dellacha for Argentina in the Copa América.

I'm not sure about Juan Bautista Agüero, but apparently he was one of the best players in the Paraguayan League (if not the best) and champion with Olimpia. He also was part of the historic win against Uruguay in Montevideo (0-5) that qualified Paraguay for the 1958 World Cup in Sweden the following year and eliminated the charrúas.

 

Copa America achievements aren't enough to earn a Ballon nomination, as we've seen in recent years. It's not a major tournament, really, and shouldn't have a higher value than qualifiers or friendlies from Europe during that time. I'd say in general it's comparable to a Dr. Gerö cup or the Olympic tournament.

And the problem isn't just that year, but every year. There's always a bunch of Libertadores heroes or other nobodies thrown in that weren't even starters for their NT.

 

Taking into account that the Copa América was held that year and the prestige of the Argentine League and the Brazilian Championships at that time it seems to me there is not any exaggeration.

There is a reality very distant now (in these last decades) to that of before to take as reference to the Ballon d'Or votes now, when the power of leagues and tournaments are concentrated in a few countries in Europe and there are from considerable to huge distance with respect to other countries in the next scale. That's only a very recent scenario in general terms.

In that list Tom chose to Alberto Terry, who played in Universitario in the Peruvian League. A player of this league today, in spite of being the best player, would be unpublished in a current list by the enormous competitive difference that exists with respect to the best leagues of the world right now, but then those differences were reduced to only some teams and not to players and it's possible that Terry was perceived as one of the best players in the world at that time playing for a minor league in South America (supported by his international performances), even better than some main players in strong European leagues at that moment.

In the late 1950's I think it's understandable that South America could have 50% or more players in these type of lists sometimes (probably until early 1970's).

By the way, I don't remember a single completely unknown player in all these lists. All, at least, were quite recognized in their time, whether they were international or not.

 

Yeah, PeruFC said everything.
Just one small correction. Canhoteiro helped to win the São Paulo State Championship (Paulistão). And a curiosity: He scored the 2nd goal in the decisive match against Corinthians.
He was seriously considered (at the time he was the regular starter LW for the NT - Pepe was the 2nd option and Zagallo only the 3rd.) for the 1958´WC but he was cut due to some motives like the fear of flying/airplanes and his drinking/nightlife passions.
Here is a nice profile on him:
https://tardesdepacaembu.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/canhoteiro-um-garrincha-canhoto/

 

To be honest, I usually gather information from many sources at the same time and I don't remember exactly each of them, but here are some of them online:

Memória Futebol: Canhoteiro, o homem que entortava o mundo
Tardes de Pacaembú: Canhoteiro... habilidoso galhofeiro
Literatura na Arquibancada: Canhoteiro: o homem que driblou a glória (this comes from a book)

And references from Revista Manchete Esportiva (I acquired some of them in Mercado Libre (an online commerce page) and even this book.

For Argentine players, apart from varied websites, most of the magazine El Gráfico.

 

I would like to see Ariaga his response but think (and said before) this is to an extent a romanticized view.

As Ariaga his own 'world soccer' thread shows, many top Argentines and Brazilians went to Europe even if it cost them their place for the national team.

If one looks at the SAPotY then almost all of the top 10 from each year tried sooner or later during their twenties in Europe (I've spelled this out before). Pele and Garrincha were kind of the exception and not the rule (as is sometimes thought).

 

The number of players in South American leagues has no bearing on the CA certainly, since it's a NT-tournament. If anything, the current editions are more valuable, because they're generally played less often and have the best players. For much of its history (not 1957, though) the CA was played with B-teams, that's how much it meant. Same with the Libertadores. Brazilian teams held European friendlies in more value. Is there anyone in all seriousness that thinks the Libertadores had a higher standard than, say the Cup Winners' Cup? And even that one was a complete B-tournament.

The mere idea of a 50% ratio is completely preposterous. Like I said, it makes the South American big 3 look like they're Canada in hockey or the US in basketball, when the truth is Argentina and yes, even Brazil, have at times struggled to get even one team of top-class players for a World Cup.

My favorite example of the Americentrism in those lists is Juan Ramon Veron. This Libertadores/Panathinaikos hero earned how many Ballon nominations in that list? A guy who earned 4 caps (0 goals) at a time when Argentina failed to even qualify for a World Cup. Another one is Ademir Da Guia. A guy considered too slow for international level, but he has like a dozen nominations? It's like giving a dozen Ballon nominations to Matt Le Tissier.

 

For a lover of south american soccer history like me, I really enjoy the "Americentrism" and "romanticized" view of those lists.


It was a tough research, but Tom Stevens and Perú FC did a really great job.

Comparing Ademir da Guia nominations to potential Matt LeTissiers nominations is a joke. lol
Palmeiras was a dominant team in Brazil in the late 60s and early 70s and Ademir da Guia was the best player from the team. Simple as that.
As for the NT, the competition was really really tough and every coach has his preferences. Zagallo did not like Ademir's style. Just like he did not like Santos' Edu. Edu was the best player from Brazil in the 70'WC qualifiers with João Saldanha and then completely lost his place in the team with Zagallo (Edu hates Zagallo. Never forgived him. lol) . Dirceu Lopes was another dominant player that never had a chance with him.

Southampton never was a dominant force or a top 5 team during Le Tissier's spell. And he never had the same competition in the English national team that Ademir had in Brazil talentwise.

 

That book has only two fleeting sentences on Canhoteiro