The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    #ParaBleForUSA
     
  2. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    This reminds me of a story.

    Once there was this kid who got into an accident and couldn't come to school. When he finally came back, his hair had turned from black into bright white. He said that it was from when the cars had smashed so hard. Mmm mmm m... oh hang on, that's not a story, it's a Crash Test Dummies song.

    But probably about as relevant as the tale of the scorpion and the bull.
     
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  3. Well, you're consistent anyway in your biased and false opinion. Pro/Rel has nothing to do with the distribution of money in any league. That only exists in your, I admit consistent, fantasy.
    Without facts that is, just fantasy.
    Pro/Rel exists for at least a century and in that time frame we've seen clubs rise to financial power and fall again.
     
    USRufnex repped this.
  4. Yup, I mentioned you come up with this mantra time after time and you denied it but here we are within two pages without any reason you came up again with this boring "copy paste" mantra.
    Scorpion revisited, it's your nature, you can't help it.
    Even the qualification "standing Gimmick"or gimmick on it's own comes up with a regularity that makes a Swiss clock envious.
     
  5. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    FFS, it's the scorpion and the bullfrog. A scorpion wouldn't kill a bull.
     
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  6. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    In fairness, I doubt a scorpion and a frog (or bull for that matter) would possess the necessary interspecies communication skills to discuss the favour in first place. :p

    In any case, it's not a fable I'm very enamoured with. It implies that we are at the mercy of our whims, which in turn negates responsibility.

    And now I think about it, if @CrazyJ628 is indeed unable to escape his nature like the scorpion in the story, surely telling him about it via a lengthy tale is redundant.
     
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  7. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    The ironic part is that NASL 2.0 under Commissioner Peterson was starting to sell itself to prospective owners as pro soccer's 21st Century version of the ABA and AFL. I heard this from multiple sources. It was within this context that the NASL decided to embrace Promotion/Relegation, but really only with MLS, and had no real interest in partnering with leagues below D2 other than to field their reserve clubs in the NPSL.

    It was understandable the NASL had no interest in Pro/Rel with the USL, but when Peter Wilt came calling to the NASL meetings as a representative of NISA seeking some linkage and commonality with them, the NASL seemed content to write off the new league as competitors rather than partners.

    Wonder what would have happened to the ABA had the NBA tried to force a 1970s version of the G-league on them.
     
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  8. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    Have pity on the poor scorpion....
    Crazy Joe suffers from Promotion/Relegation Derangement Syndrome.
     
    M repped this.
  9. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    I still have threatened violence over my preferred standings gimmick nor do I cry to mods when people dare challenge my arguments, which unlike yours, Geoff, are based in facts and experience actually working in the sports business.

    Fact. The system that most European leagues have in which the richest teams horde the most talent allows them to be immune from relegation. The teams with less money are generally unable to compete and are this subject to relegation more often.

    Fact. The ecosystem that exists in the US makes pro/rel nearly unworkable.

    Opinion based on fact: if USSF/FIFA/Your Mom tried to impose pro/rel on MLS or USL, the lawsuits that would ensue would take years to sort out and might affect the survival of the game in the US.

    Another opinion based on fact and experience: If a league wanted to try pro/rel. The tanking of value, ticket sales, and debt brought about by relegation (and even promotion in some cases) would cause more American teams to go under.

    Fact: American pro soccer is thriving at levels never seen before without kicking teams out of leagues for one bad season. To deny this is to be as detached from reality as a young earth creationist or Infowars nut job.

    Another fact: The pro/rel crowd in the US is very selective in who they care a about. If they were consistent they’d argue for p/r in the women’s game and come out against the way LigaMX does things. They don’t.

    Yet another fact: USSF/SUM/MLS aren’t the reasons NASL died or why Detroit City isn’t fully professional. It’s an easy scapegoat for others’ failures.

    There’s no debate here. Pro/rel thankfully isn’t happening. Soccer is thriving without it and in 20 years this conversation will be long dead.
     
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  10. I think it was the Court that used that in it's verdict, not one of the parties involved.
     
    M repped this.
  11. MLSinCleveland

    MLSinCleveland Member+

    Oct 12, 2006
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A few thoughts after catching up on this thread:

    - Could the USSF do away with the USOC, or is a cup tournament a FIFA requirement?

    - Since the draft is illegal in the EU, does the NFL have to wait for Brexit to be completed to put a team in London?

    - IIRC, a new top-flight baseball league cannot be formed in America due to MLB's antitrust exemption.

    - The NBA must have reversed course on the ABA history issue as the Pacers celebrated their fiftieth anniversary based upon their ABA founding date. The only major league team who, to my knowledge, has to deny a season of their history is the Rams, who have to claim they were founded in Cleveland in 1937 (their first NFL season) rather than 1936 (when they played in the second AFL - the one that became the AFC was the fourth).

    Promotion has already destroyed an American soccer team (Cleveland City Stars).
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm pretty sure NCAA, NFL, NBA and MLB have or would use that as an argument in the US.

    Yes but why would they want to?

    Expanding The NFL Into Europe Could Expose The League's Draft To Liability Under EC Law - Forbes

    It becomes a problem if and when there are two or more clubs based in EU/EFTA/Schengen countries and players are not allowed to freely move between them.

    NFL Europe had a draft but it was in the states.
     
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  13. MLSinCleveland

    MLSinCleveland Member+

    Oct 12, 2006
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was referring to a post earlier in the thread about the Cup not having the potential to become a big tournament here, so my thought was "Why not drop it and decongest the league schedules?".
     
  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think there will be 160 teams involved in the US Open Cup this year*, that's up from 40 less than a decade ago.

    It's a great advertisement for how well soccer is doing in the US.

    And both FCC and Christos have proven that it can capture the imagination.

    *94 in the qualifiers plus MLS, USLC and USL1.
     
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  15. the5timechamp

    the5timechamp Member+

    Nov 3, 2012
    Open Cup will only be "important" if the media tells/sells it as important....

    Take the US Open Cup idea and apply it to basketball, use the media machine to sell it as they do everything else and I bet it would do just fine...

    Its just annoying to still be waiting for futbol to assume full saturation in the US (not just the nats or certain leagues/teams)
     
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  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aren't the marketing rights owned by a MLS subsidiary?
     
  17. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #18517 USRufnex, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
    Threatened violence? WTF is wrong with you?
    On what planet do you spend the majority of your time?

    You mean, when I admitted a few years ago that if I was repeatedly insulted, ridiculed, belittled and provoked at a bar in person by one of you nasty little anti Pro/Rel BigSoccer pricks, I'd probably end up throwing a punch? That's not a threat... that's me being honest. What I said back then is just as true in 2019 as when I originally said it.

    After clicking "view ignored content," I will tell you that if you go into a bar in Sheffield and start insulting people with some of the same self righteous nonsense you posted in response to @feyenoordsoccerfan the previous few pages, a Blades fan would likely punch you in the mouth and the rest of the patrons would probably applaud.

    I've had you on IGNORE for weeks and months at a time.
    You and your ilk remind me of the soccer haters in the 1990s and early 2000s.
    It's the same arguments against with the same level of self righteous arrogance.

    You routinely confuse "facts" with conventional wisdom, the status quo, and your own jaded opinions.

    I remember what people like you told me about the sport of soccer and the old NASL in the mid/late 1970s. I remember what passed for conventional wisdom about the sport of soccer in this country in the late 1980s. I remember how "experts" told me how stupid I was for loving the sport and wanting it to succeed.

    Ironically enough, you are to Promotion/Relegation what Frank DeFord was to American soccer and MLS.

    If there's no debate here, then why are you still talking?
    Honestly.
     
  18. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    If USSF and/or MLS ever dropped the US Open Cup, I would never watch another MLS game.
     
  19. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This debate has been raging for years, and I'm still stunned that it's a hill some people want to die on.
     
  20. In what way? Heritage isnot a sought after thing in the USA. Without a hitch they tear down historical land marks if it generates more money.
    The make up of US sportsenvironment is such that only money counts. The draft issue isnot a survival thing for the sports leagues in question and if it was the courts in the USA most likely wouldnot give a shit about that.
     
  21. This guy is telling something about a sport's core identity across the pond with the ignorance of not being part of that culture and at the same time blasts people for not understanding the American way and having an opinion on that matter in the States.

    About your remark "a hill some people want to die on" that's rather funny as you have no hill to die on as it doesnot exist and when you mean refer to European leagues it's a moron statement.
     
  22. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I'm sorry but no.

    The sequence of events here would have gone as follows in your hypothetical "bar in Sheffield", or indeed any bar in the UK:

    A bunch of people would be discussing something fairly trivial that most would support conceptually but many believe is impractical at present.

    Let's go with the reunion of the original Pink Floyd lineup.

    The debate is perhaps a little more heated than it should be. Then you interject with a highly condescending tone that not only should this reunion occur but that the people who doubt its viability should butt out so that you and like minded patrons can discuss what the reunion would look like.

    I among others, will raise questions about your arguments which will lead to you openly facepalming and pointing out that the number of Pink Floyd tour t-shirts you saw at a recent Roger Waters gig proves that the time is right.

    People will laugh at you for making such a strange correlation and you'll get ticked off. You'll start mouthing off about how this pub and its landlord are biased against Pink Floyd and seek to marginalize the bulk of the population that want to see this band reform and want to discuss what that would look like. You'll start to demand people get barred.

    It will then come to light that you were all for the original split as you felt they would never surpass "The Wall" anyway.

    Someone will quip that you're only changing your tune over jealousy that Genesis got to do a reunion gig that featured the returns of Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett. Your reaction to this will be so spectacularly overblown that people in the bar will start to make the same dig over and over again.

    Finally the landlord will tell everyone to lay off and they do but you won't let it lie. You'll then largely sit quietly in the corner, sulking into your beer, occasionally standing up to rant about this bar being well removed from the national feeling on Pink Floyd and run by a biased landlord.

    These are the circumstances in which you're claiming that would warrant you throwing a punch.

    This will all come to a head when M removes his false beard to reveal that he's actually Jeremy Beadle.
     
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  23. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When it comes to baseball, the NCAA and hockey, there is over a century of history for many of the teams and competitions. My alma mater's football program was founded in 1879. Professional baseball teams have been around since the 1850's. And the Stanley Cup was first awarded in 1893, making it the oldest awarded professional sports trophy in the world.

    The NBA and NFL are younger leagues, sure, but to say there's no "heritage" in American sports is woefully ignorant.
     
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  24. Sorry, I didnot say there is no heritage. I said in response to a post the US courts give shit about heritage. Read what is written, not what you think is written.
    Iconic stadiums are flattened with great heritage and memories attached to it. Heritage is present, but not much protected.
     
  25. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aren't you special.
     

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