Pelé is way overrated as a scorer

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by lessthanjake, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    FIFA did indeed officially award Didi best player of WC 58
    Pelé got lucky with the 1958 posthumous award after he did some crying to the Fifa board and sponsorships

    The same way he cried when maradona beat him by a CLEAR margin in the FIFA best player of the century award
    Maradona won the internet vote clear cut so Fifa had to organise a “football family vote” as a consolation prize to Pele
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    FD7F6023-157D-424C-A820-355E1A78E503.png
     
  3. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    I lost of lot of respect for Pele after the Messi comments...

    But no he isn't an overrated scorer. Pele was an absolutely monster in every aspect.. all-around, winning, stats. Hard to rank anyone else but him as GOAT. Messi has a chance if he wins the WC while having a few signature performances.
     
  4. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @carlito86

    Italian defenders and players who played vs Pelé talking about their experience playing against him.

    I guess they must be part of the whole marketing lie :whistling:

     
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  5. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    Basically the one argument against Pele is his relative lack of club-level accomplishments particularly against truly elite opposition. Still however, the Brazilian league at the time was much stronger than today relative to the European leagues.
     
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Impressive undoubtedly but nobody is claiming Pele is overrated Compared to Johnny nobody as a goalscorer he is one of the best (period no discussing)

    He becomes overrated when his goal record is used as irrefutable evidence that he is better than everyone else
    Pelés goal record wasn’t anomalous in his own era
    As I have taken the time to show you Eusebio played on a club side that averaged less goals than Santos but he still managed to score at the same rate over a number of seasons as Pele during their respective primes
    A few years before Pele (like 5-7 years Puskás,kocsis,ferenc deak all scores at a superior level to Pele)

    Nobody in the last 30 years has scored like either Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi so within the context of their respective eras ronaldo and Messi are indeed greater goalscorers

    In terms of completeness
    The Pele rules:
    (head+left+right+FK+acrobatic+long distance shooting+dribbling goals etc CR7 matches Pele and even arguably exceeds him as a compete goalscorer)
     
  7. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Not sure what mbappe is doing on such a list but nice comp nonetheless

    Can we use Peles assist tally as accurate source material?
    BTW since whenever you made this ronaldo has jumped from 207 assists to 243 career assists
    67 assists for Manchester United United
    http://www.redcafe.net/threads/manchester-united-goals-and-assists-1987-88-today.396084/
    131 for Real Madrid
    37 for Portugal
    7 assists for juventus
    Plus a few for sporting Lisbon 2-3 max
    Approximately:242-245 assists

    Cristiano Ronaldo
    669 goals+242 assists in 934 matches
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    @celito

    80% of Peles goals for the NT
    (62 out of 77)
     
  10. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #310 Tropeiro, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    How did they estimate Pele's assists?

    Pelé had at least 31 by strict definition for Brazilian NT (92 Matches) for exemple, and at least 33 by wide, OPTA, definition (probably more, like 40).

    So if the numbers with the Brazilian NT are already wrong, how do I think the numbers with Santos would be correct? Even more so today where we all take into account the definition of OPTA about assists.

    Also Pelé was not monopolizing penalties like was Maradona or Cristiano Ronaldo, the smaller part of the goals of Pele are of penalties compared with Cristiano Ronaldo or Maradona to put examples, probably less than Messi as well.

    According Wiki Spanish

    Maradona, 366 Goals and 252 Assists in 699 Matches = 0.8841
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Armando_Maradona#Estadísticas_como_jugador
    Pelé, 775 Goals and 329 Assists in 842 Matches = 1.3099
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelé#Estadísticas
    Messi, 632 Goals and 260 Assists in 780 Matches = 1.1435
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi#Resumen_estadístico
    Cristiano Ronaldo, 669 Goals and 224 Assists in 934 Matches (244 according Transfermakt) = 0.956
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo#Estadísticas
    Neymar, 344 Goals and 204 Assists in 555 Matches = 0.9873
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neymar#Resumen_estadístico
     
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  11. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Probably not. They didn't keep assist data back in the day. And since a lot of videos of games were lost in TV station building fire, it's impossible to know. But I'd venture to say the figure is much higher than in that video.
     
  12. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Messi has no chance (he had chances back 2014 before WC14 and two Copa Americas 15 and 16, had he won the WC14 and both Copa Américas, that would be different), but the number of failures with his NT is somewhat too high to compete with Pelé for the GOAT position, regardless of what he can still can do. That is the most reasonable opinion.

    Btw,
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/pele-against-messi-comparing-their-career-numbers-at-28.2021604/
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Spanish Wikipedia isn’t valid source material for assist totals so stop referencing it.
    It is really embarrassing
     
  14. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #314 Tropeiro, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    Who said it was not correct? An anonymous poster of the Internet that understands nothing?
    Anyway the goals are all well recorded and we can compare there:

    Pelé
    MARADONA
    10 NO-PK GOALS IN 30 MATCHES 1984/1985 AGE 24
    7 NO PK GOALS IN 29 MATCHES 1985/1986 AGE 25
    7 NO PK GOALS IN 29 MATCHES 1986/1987 AGE 26
    11 NO PK GOALS IN 28 MATCHES 1987/1988 AGE 27
    8 NO PK GOALS IN 26 MATCHES 1988/1989 AGE 28
    9 NO PK GOALS IN 28 MATCHES 1989/1990 AGE 29
    0 NO PK GOALS IN 18 MATCHES 1990/1991 AGE 30

    52 NO PK GOALS IN 188 MATCHES.Hardly impressive, still more when Napoli scored 280 GOALS, 52/280 = 18,57% NO PK GOAL CONTRIBUTION.
    81 GOALS INCLUDING ALL PK, 81/280 = 28.92%
    All his carrer with Napoli, 115/401 = 28.67% (45 PK GOALS)



    PLATINI
    15 NO PK GOALS IN 29 MATCHES 1982/1983 AGE 27
    17 NO PK GOALS IN 28 MATCHES 1983/1984 AGE 28
    14 NO PK GOALS IN 30 MATCHES 1984/1985 AGE 29
    10 NO PK GOALS IN 30 MATCHES 1985/1986 AGE 30
    2 NO PK GOALS IN 28 MATCHES 1986/1987 AGE 31

    58 NO PK GOALS IN 145 MATCHES. Juventus scored 233 GOALS, 58/233 = 24,89% NO PK GOAL CONTRIBUTION.
    68 GOALS INCLUDING ALL PK, 68/233 = 29.18%.
    All his carrer with Juventus,


    ____________________________________________________________

    So,

    OFFICIAL GAMES (WITH ALL PENALTIES)

    1.1) ZICO 1983-1984 UDINESE (COPPA ITALIA AND SERIE A) = 43.63
    1) PELÉ, 58-65 SANTOS = 42.58
    2) ZICO, 74-83 FLAMENGO = 39.50
    3) CRISTIANO RONALDO, REAL MADRID = 38.68
    4) MESSI, 09-10 17-18 BARCELONA = 37.30
    5) PUSKAS, REAL MADRID = 33.98
    6) PLATINI, JUVENTUS ITALIA SERIE A = 29.18
    7) MARADONA, NAPOLI = 28.67
    8) PUSKAS, HONVED = 28.56

    if you take out the penalty goals, Maradona would have the biggest drop to 17.5% less than Zico in the season with 30-31year old in Italian competitions, less than half of peak Pelé, and much less than Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo and much less than Platini and Puskas too.
    Note: I don't evaluate penalty goals as indicative of a good scorer.

    NON-PK GOALS

    1) PELÉ, 58-65 SANTOS = 37.93
    2) ZICO, 83-84 UDINESE SERIE A AND COPPA ITALIA = 36.36
    2.1) ZICO, 74-83 FLAMENGO = 32.68
    2) MESSI, 09-10 17-18 BARCELONA = 32
    3) CRISTIANO RONALDO, REAL MADRID = 31.46

    4) PLATINI JUVENTUS SERIE A = 24.89
    5) MARADONA NAPOLI = 17.45


    As you can see in the peak of these players, Pelé had greater goal contribution than all of them.


    [​IMG]

    These are very well documented facts, my friend. You can't argue about it.

     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Do you have any newspaper cuttings or video footage of this TV station burning down?
    So you are saying the only recordings of his goals were in this one TV station that got burned down.
    This story has all the hallmarks of a conspiracy theory
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #316 carlito86, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles, except in limited cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism. Users can contribute anonymously, under a pseudonym, or, if they choose to, with their real identity.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About


    For all we know it could’ve been Pelé himself who edited in the assist tally!!!!
    Wikipedia is and always has been a secondary source not a primary one unless you are a lazy analyst like yourself
     
  17. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Since you are so smart, edit there and put your value, I'm sure they will approve your edition, champion. Surely. :thumbsup:
     
    Legolas10 repped this.
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #318 carlito86, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    The above is complete and total FICTION

    A source that is as accurate as the Wikipedia source you referenced places Peles penalty tally as high as 170 scored and 25 missed
    This would mean he took just under 200 penalties in his career
    If that isn’t monopolising penalties than I don’t know what is

    Being the fake expert on Pele that you are you have yet to show me a single example of Pele giving away a penalty he earned to his teammate to score
    You can even invent a scenario but you have to at least make it believable

    As a Madrid player Cristiano Ronaldo gave away 5 penalties to his teammates to score who were going through barren runs in front of goal(refer back to my post a few pages back)
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....all/5-times-ronaldo-gave-penalty-to-teammates
    As a Manchester United player even more
    Messi giving away pens is known and highly publicised on social media
    The onus is on you to prove that Pele wasn’t monopolising pens because as of now the evidence suggests he was
     
  19. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #319 Tropeiro, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018

    Info about 111 PK Goals out of his ~1300 Goals etc as professional player, amateur matches etc (8,5% Goals of PK), Maradona had 45 PK out of 115 Goals as Napoli player for example (39,1% of his Goals from PK for example). Big difference. Cristiano Ronaldo info about 106 PK goals of his 669 Goals = 15,84%. Messi info about 80 PK Goals of his 632 Goals = 12,65%.

    Btw, can you show me some detalied info about Pelé's 170 PK goals?
     
    Legolas10 repped this.
  20. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    First don't spam in the thread...

    Second: Your source for Pelé assists and minutes (and all things in general) is UNRELIABLE (FALSE)

    So you shouldn't put Pelé or other legends in that dishonest comparison to start with.


    Also Transfermarkt (that use OPTA critery I think) had 222 assists for Messi in Barcelona and 42 for Argentina = 264 Assists in 781 matches, then these 322 needs to be verified.

    https://www.transfermarkt.pt/lionel-messi/leistungsdatenverein/spieler/28003

    Btw, the figure of 264 match more or less with the Spanish Wiki,

    According Wiki Spanish:

    Maradona, 366 Goals and 252 Assists in 699 Matches = 0.8841
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Armando_Maradona#Estadísticas_como_jugador
    Pelé, 775 Goals and 329 Assists in 842 Matches = 1.3099
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelé#Estadísticas
    Messi, 632 Goals and 260 Assists in 780 Matches = 1.1435
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi#Resumen_estadístico
    Cristiano Ronaldo, 669 Goals and 224 Assists in 934 Matches (244 according Transfermakt) = 0.956
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo#Estadísticas
    Neymar, 344 Goals and 204 Assists in 555 Matches = 0.9873
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neymar#Resumen_estadístico

    Anyways, GOAL stats are much more easily verifiable and with a very clear criterion, that is a honest comparison with Messi, CR7 and Pelé:


    [​IMG]
     
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  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    LMFAO
    Your telling a poster not to spam and you have literally posted this exact same BS at least 3 times since yesterday
    The irony

    When you opened the link to Pelés assists I could almost hear your heart beating
    Your probably sweating buckloads right now
     
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    To begin with, that dishonest table of that user has really nothing to do with the thread's theme.

    And well at least I'm honest, my table is fair (and easily verifiable), and my source is certainly more honest than this BS here: http://analisisfutbolch.blogspot.com/?view=classic

    And I'm not a dishonest clown who says something and then can't prove it. (where are these 170 PK Goals that Pelé made in his career?)
     
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  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #324 carlito86, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    Wikipedia is a pseudo source used by school kids for a presentation/homework or to read a brief bio on a historical figure

    You have no source for any of your outlandish claims
    Your quoting from a secondary source who’s origin is totally obscure(nobody knows who wrote it)
    It could even be Bella kona
    Btw It isnt the craziest thing I’ve heard .there was a Brazilian nutcase who was here before both of us that claimed Pele had between 500-800 assists
    He deduced this from his assist tally at the World Cup+ intercontinental cup and applied it across his whole career which is simply beyond crazy

    Bottom line there is no way to unequivocally prove Pele scored X amount of penalties
    Conservative estimations claim that there is footage of only between 20-30% of his goals
    Really it is all guess work what we are doing.
    the funniest thing to me is you are so adamant to the extent you’d put your life on the validity of a Wikipedia statistic.its totally laughable

    With regards to assists this is what I could find on the net with a quick search

    Includes some passing and 70 strict criteria assists(ie final pass before goal)


    90 strict criteria assists here and some other passes

    That’s 160 assists including games in amateur league NASL and some friendly matches
     
  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    This thread has no space for you, stupid troll.
     
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