Next Ballon d'Or winner that isn't CR7 or LM10 (and when)?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by BocaFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    He finished 2nd in the BD
    Stopping short of winning (which he did not deserve to) that is as much consideration as one can expect to recieve
    I agree though over the past two World cups alone modric 2018 should rank behind MANY World Cup performances

    2014
    James Rodriguez
    Arjen Robben
    Lionel Messi
    Thomas muller

    2018
    Eden hazard
    Kevin De Bruyne
    Mbappe
    Antoine Griezmann

    Others like Paul Pogba,Neymar jr,countinho,rakitic weren’t too far behind modric either IMO
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #6277 carlito86, Dec 5, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
    Yeah koeman was obviously getting old and past it.
    And the dynamics of that Barcelona team had drastically changed (Cruyff leaving his managerial role soon after)
    With many of the legends who won 4 consecutive league titles getting old and or moving on
    Stoichkov,Romario,laudrup,koeman weren’t even Playing for Barcelona when Popescu joined(and when stoichkov came back he was finished as a World class player)

    Being a captain on a Barcelona team without these players means nothing.who would take the armband of him?
    A kid ronaldo or maybe Luis Enrique LMFAO
    And even besides all of this Popescu was just a good player
    Not very good and definitely not great especially within the context of that time when there was many great defenders Popescu would never enter your mind for consideration
     
  3. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    #6278 Bavarian14, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    I can imagine Argentina getting into the world cup final if they had similar KO stage fixtures lol. In that case Messi might've won the Golden ball again. But he would still have to compete with Ronaldo for Ballon d'Or (who had a highly overrated CL campaign and single match performance against Spain)
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Which source claimed it was overrated?

    Ronaldo singlehandedly dragged Madrid to the semifinals of the champions league
    Ronaldo 17/18 CL
    15 goals+3 assists out of total 33 team goals:55% direct involvement

    Mohammed salah 17/18 CL
    10 goals+5 assists out of 41 total team goals:37% direct involvement

    Roberto firmino 17/18 CL
    10 goals+8 assists out of 41 total team goals:44% direct involvement
    It is therefore no coincidence Whoscored ranked ronaldo the best champions league player with minimum 8 matches played


    Messi was legendary in La Liga(best league performer in Europe by a light year) but in the champions league he was far from convincing.
    Messi will win La Liga best player deservedly but more is required to win the ballon dor
    (Champions league+world cup count more and ronaldo had the clear edge in both)
     
  5. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    BS. Here you go with singlehandedly again. Except for that Juventus bicycle kick, Ronaldo was spoon fed goals. You just mentioned Neymar can't do anything in QF on unless he is spoon fed chances.

    Messi scored 2 goals vs the same Juve Madrid beat. Also was as clutch as it can be vs Chelsea. The difference is that when Messi couldn't deliver (and the whole team struggled), nobody else stepped up. When Ronaldo did absolutely nothing, his teammates dragged him through the finish line through the SFs and the Final.
     
  6. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    #6281 Bavarian14, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    I think others have already addressed my points. Ronaldo was impressive in CL but not to a great extent. His 15 goal haul came with 4 penalties unlike Firmino or Salah.
    He scored a ton of goals in group stage against the likes of APOL and Dortmund (a highly unimpressive Dortmund side which finished the Bundesliga in 4th place & had arguably the worst squad in past 10 years).
    Again he scored a lucky tap-in and a penalty in the 1st leg against PSG, a good header in the 2nd leg.
    His 1st leg against Juventus was legendary (despite missing a few chances). But he didn't do much in the 2nd leg other than scoring a penalty.
    In the semifinal he was completely neutralized by Bayern defense and even missed a sitter. While his teammates bailed him out. The same happened in the final.
    In a nutshell it was a great performance from a goalscoring perspective but far from the best
     
  7. Leko9

    Leko9 New Member

    Dec 6, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Fanboys that only ruin sport and football. All awards saying that Modric is the best player in the world! And that nobody takes them off.
    World Cup Golden Ball
    UEFA Best's player
    FIFA's The Best award
    Ballon d'Or

    Award after award after award after award has been given to him, he won the confirmation vote 100% a one hundred percent record of success.
    The first player in history to be awarded all this in the same year, you have no idea what you're talking about.
    Stop being a biased, deluded, Modric hating fan and dont advertise yourself as a specialist, a true football fan is more than just overrating our favorite players.

    This forum is simply getting out of hand and about to turn into another YouTube comment section sounding fake when giving compliments either with me or against me regardless the essence of the truth that has become increasingly childish behavior thankfully a few mature people here prevent this from happening.
     
    robnycus repped this.
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Which part is BS?
    The part where I said ronaldo was better than Messi in the champions league and World Cup
    Or the part where I said that ronaldo carried Real Madrid up to the semifinals of the champions league

    Say what you like but benzema and Gareth Bale practically did nothing up to the semifinals of the champions league
    This isn’t Peles Santos where Madrid automatically qualified for the copa libertadores semifinals
    What happens before the SF actually matters and ronaldo was crucial against Dortmund,psg,a very good Tottenham (that actually beat Madrid)and juventus
    What is highlighted are facts that cannot be disputed

    Strikers can carry teams,I really don’t know why you keep denying this
    Otherwise I wonder how Rossi won the golden ball in 82?
    Mainly for his one hit wonder performance against Brazil in the QF with 3 chances=3 goals

    @Bavarian14
    Scoring goals against a Dortmund side that finished 4th in Bundesliga is surely as impressive as Messi scoring goals against a Chelsea side that finished 5th in the EPL?
     
  9. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The part where you said he carried them. Carry for me has another meaning. Ronaldo's performance vs PSG was average at best. PK goal ... then the ball actually hits his knee to go in. Nice header in the 2nd game. Remember clearly him messing up a few opportunities vs PSG and I think Bayern (or Juve) where he had to do a little more.



    I have a problem with the hype behind Rossi's performance in 82 and it's no secret. It's not that I don't value it, it just has to be put into perspective.

     
    ko242 repped this.
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You cannot diminish the worth of a striker because in this case the striker in question completely flattened Brazil

    Rossi had a job and did what was required of him to the fullest extent(he couldn’t of done any better)
    Zico could’ve done MUCH better considering he had a vastly superior skillset and had more ways to hurt a team than Rossi who was reliant on service
    We’ve seen many examples of goalscorers in huge games missing multiple opportunities that could’ve changed the course of a match.
    Del Piero is an example in the euro final 2000(missed two clear cut chances when the game was still level)

    Higuain and missed sitters in big games is well known
    Romario missed sitters in the WC 94 final that could’ve won Brazil the trophy in normal time without having to rely on the penalty shootout(which is like the lottery-pure chance)

    Rossi had 3 clear cut chances and converted them into 3 goals
    It was a GREAT performance your doubts and reservations about it are completely unfounded
    You are also understandably biased against Rossi..no wonder why
     
  11. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yet in another thread you said Neymar could only score goals spoon fed by Messi :confused:

    So on one side, finishing chances are carrying a team, but on the other it's a criticism.
     
  12. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Well, one difficulty in your analysis is that all 8 names you listed are all forwards. By not listing a single midfielder, you are actually strengthening the Modric argument.

    And Neymar Jr? :confused: I hope you're not speaking of 2018 when his conversion rate in the WC was CR7-esque. In 2014 he was more unlucky than anything else, of course, but still cannot compare a couple of decent performances against cannon-fodder with what Modric did in WC 2018. And while comparing MFers to FWs is difficult, just Modric' goal against Argentina was better than anything Neymar did at any WC. So in this one case its not too hard actually.
     
  13. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That's a huge over statement.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #6289 carlito86, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    Rossi scored archetypal striker goals
    A powering header,a goal where he dispossessed cerezo and dribbled into open area into the box
    The third was more of a instinctive finish a la gerd Müller where he turned a half chance into a goal

    Neymars tapin goals in the QF and SF were purely down to the creative genius of Lionel Messi and the useful link up striker Luis Suarez.
    Fillipo inzaghi could score the types of goals Neymar did if he was presented with the same situation in a match
    Rossi made 3 goals out of 3 good but not great chances so it is completely different
     
  15. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You're out of your mind. Rossi's goals in that WC is the definition of Johnny on the spot. Any average striker could have scored them. The only goal he had something to do was the 2nd vs Brazil. 3 goals out of nothing ? That's laughable. 3 goals were gifted to him.
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    There is a difference between an average striker being capable of scoring the goals Rossi did
    And actually taking those chances in a game of such magnitude where both teams are evenly matched
    Rossi was THE difference maker on the same pitch as prime zico,Socrates,Falcao,scriea,Cabrini
    I don’t care what you say Rossi was clear cut a deserved MOTM with a iconic clutch performance

    You simply place to much emphasis on quality rather than importance
    Italy wasn’t dominanting brazil at all like I said it was evenly matched and the strength of that Italy was its defensive line that was almost impenetrable
    Neymar scored tapin goals for an attack minded Barcelona team
    The strength of Barcelona under Enrique was in there front 3(their defence was leaky but it didn’t matter because MSN at their best could outscore any team on planet earth)
     
  17. Madara Uchiha

    Madara Uchiha Member

    Jan 22, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    :ROFLMAO:@ Singlehandedly. But agreed to, it required more to win ballon d'or. Go with zero trophy season and let Real Madrid Propaganda Machine do their job...:rolleyes:
     
  18. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    This pretty much summarizes Messi vs. Ronaldo the last couple of years.

    As for 2014, Messi should have definitely gotten more love for the Ballon D'Or. It's not just that he had a phenomenal WC... 4 MOTM performances, led the whole cup in dribbles completed and key passes. But the guy who won the BDO had a horrible WC and it was overlooked. And his CL run while good on paper with 8 knockout stage goals... 7 of those 8 goals were superfluous or came in garbage time.
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    Don’t be such a lazy analyst @Danko as ronaldos complete stats are readily available on the net
    Ronaldo top scored in 13/14 and also made 5 assists
    In the R16 vs a 3rd place Bundesliga team schalke he scored 4 goals+2 assists+1 pre assist out of 9team goals
    Final score was 9-2 and he was directly involved in 7 of those so it’s fair to say he completely destroyed that team

    In the QF he scored the winning goal on aggregate vs Dortmund
    In the SF he contributed to the winning goal vs Bayern Munich with a good through ball pre assist and then scored two more “in garbage time “

    for you to even attempt to diminish the greatness of a player who contributed to 2 goals per match over the course of an entire champions league season shows what a deluded fanboy you are
    Many Barcelona fans like yourself like in parallel universes where many players were able to accomplish what ronaldo has done in the champions league
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Footballing legend Pelé has said that Diego Maradona was a much “much better player” than Lionel Messi.

    In an interview with Folha de Sao Paulo, Pelé stated that he believed the five-time Ballon d’Or winner Messi had one major flaw in that he only uses his left foot and is poor with his head.
    “How can you make a comparison between a guy who heads well, shoots well, with the left and with the right, with another guy who only shoots with one leg, can only one dribble and doesn’t finish the ball well with the head?” he said
    Maradona was one of the greatest players in history. If you ask me if he was better than Messi, then yes, he was much better. Beckenbauer and Cruyff were also excellent players."

    Pelé was also quick to play down any comparisons between him and Messi, saying: “How can you compare them? To compare yourself with Pelé, you must be someone who shoots well with your left foot and with the right, as well as scoring with your head.”

    https://en.as.com/en/2018/12/06/football/1544122661_793685.html?omnil=resrelrecom

    Two glaring things that caught my eye are the following

    1.)Pele must not have access to post 2013 matches of Messi
    To date Messi has scored around 30 headed career goals which may not be in the same territory of similar sized players like Romario or Pele but is a respectable tally nonetheless.
    To say he doesn’t finish well with his head is an inaccurate statement
    Unless @Vegan10 can provide evidence of maradona scoring 30+ career headed goals I think Pele is once again using maradona as a distraction tactic.
    (Btw I’m sure this would be music to maradonas ears when Pele never even intended like that)
    He is just trying to put enough distance between him and Messi but raising his deficiencies that were addressed a long time ago

    2.)Pele is referring to himself in 3rd person
    “To compare yourself with Pele...”
    This is really crazy stuff and the kind of arrogance than isn’t praiseworthy but completely delusional


    Is Pele right to claim Messi is inferior to himself because he has a technically inferior skillset?
    Even if we say Messi is one footed and “lacking” in aerial ability(which I personally don’t view to be an accurate description of Messi for the past few years)
    His left foot alone is like the 8th wonder of the world.
    What he has been able to do with his left foot is what 99% of all players haven’t been able to do with both feet and head

    There are some here that place great emphasis on heading ability like greatstriker11 for example and there are others who completely dismiss it as an attribute that players that aren’t even special possess(players like Peter crouch and Aritz Aduriz spring to mind)

    What is your take on this?
    @PuckVanHeel @PDG1978 @celito @ko242
     
  21. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Pele has contradicted himself a lot. Or at least doesn't give answers that are elaborate enough. Often they are short answers and one liners to specific questions in events or rare interviews like this. I don't even know he watches many games regularly except for NT level.

    I remember him saying years ago, can't find the quote now, that Messi was the player that played the most like him today because he scored goals but also created them. Perhaps it was in relation to Ronaldo at the time who turned more into a goal scorer.

    He also has said that Messi > Ronaldo. But Ronaldo is the one that can hit with both feet and head the ball. So it's very contradictory.

    When he said Messi is not a good header of the ball, it's in comparison to him. He is not saying literally that he can't head the ball. And that's true IMO, generally speaking even if Messi has scored many header goals. But he is generally for example, not going to out jump defenders to win a header like Pele' and Ronaldo have done.

    With respect to being a complete attacker (the definition being equally strong with both feet, good header of the ball) he is right. But that doesn't necessarily make you the better player IMO. I'd rate Messi's ball control, dribbling, and through balls higher than Pelé. Even though for example, Pelé's dribbling was probably more dynamic. I honestly think comparing players from other generations to today is just an impossible task because the game has changed so much. Even the rules and their interpretation have changed.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Generally agree with your comments and Pelé is actually damaging his own aura with this crap. He's also not using the best observations - there are more legitimate grounds for critique or saying "Pelé (talking in the third person) had more of this technically and mentally".

     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #6298 carlito86, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    Peles game IMO was actually very different from Messi
    If I was to make a comparison of Messi to previous players I would say under Guardiola 2009-2012 he was like Cruyff 71-74 as a false 9 but with less defensive duties(Messi obviously having advantages In scoring and arguably dribbling)
    But their influence was roughly comparable

    Messi from 2014 has been like zico for Flamengo as a free roaming forward he often drops deep and dictated play in the final third but not as a AM as some might claim but in a position that is between forward and attacking midfielder( what Brazilians call ponta de lança)

    For me prime Pele was like Eusebio CF,WF,SS but with superior technical ability
    Eusebio was a beast physically but clearly “lacking” in technical ability when compared to most top 20 all timers(not compared with Thierry Henry for example)

    Pele is arguably the most complete goal scorer that ever lived(an argument can be made for another player but I can’t be bothered)
    When we say complete attacker we are talking about attributes not always directly related to finishing ability

    In playmaking and as an organiser he was IMO a tier below zico,Messi,maradona and yes even Cruyff who probably never had the passing versatility of these other players but was still great nonetheless(excelling from what I saw as a ball distributor,ball carrier and particularly in crossing.
    In his final season for feyenoord his passing game seemed more refined/complete and his outside of the foot passes were some of the best I ever saw.

    Pele did not have a passing game close to any of these players so he himself cannot really be in contention for most complete attacker of all time
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #6299 carlito86, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    A phenomenal World Cup gosh..i guess we will have to invent new superlatives to describe maradona 86

    Goals+assists+pre assist=direct involvement for a forward

    Messi had non of those from the QF to final of WC 14
    .messi is the only forward in the history of the World Cup to have won the golden ball without having contributed to a single goal from the QF to final

    The rest of what you said regarding winning
    4x MOTM well they were awarded for group stage performances vs Nigeria,Iran,Bosnia and Switzerland in the R16
    chances created+dribbles with no end product means nothing
    Just data collected by opta for Messi fanboys to masturbate over
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/maradona-86-vs-messi-14.2008702/

    Like all the advanced statistics collected by bada bing proved nothing
    It’s all speculation
    Ie if higuain did not miss
    If aguero wasn’t so bad for the NT
    If this that blah blah blah

    Real World Cup Legends made the difference irrespective of what others were doing
    It’s just excuses
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This would be a far better argument for Pelé to use when speaking about himself in third person:

    "Pelé was Pelé for both Santos and Brazil. Messi is Messi in the context of Barcelona, in an Argentina shirt he becomes 'just' one of the many world class players when coming up against the big teams or the stakes increase."

    Factor in that with Aguero and Higuain (Dybala, Tevez previously) you have excellent material for making a side tick and slick, and one has a case.

    See the article in the Robben thread: Argentina the only country with three players in the top 10 of productivity.

    Sometimes it seems Pelé has forgotten what made himself the single best of his generation. It is not the 1000 goals and three world cups nonsense.
     

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