Klinsmann, Arena and Sarachan- Worst stretch of US Coaches of all time?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by leppercut, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    ... but of course, nobody is saying such things, so why don't we talk about the real problem? The USSF's mission is to govern and grow the sport of soccer, but it has neglected this role, preferring to focus on channeling money to SUM. The result has been massive dysfunction on the soccer side.

    Our managers haven't gotten worse. They've just been set up to fail.
     
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  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's zero evidence of that happening.
     
  3. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And the tinfoil hat of the day goes to...
     
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  5. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    SUM is just a legal entity that allows USSF to hide revenue, skirting the nonprofit rules.

    The principles of SUM include Sunil Gulati, Don Garber, Dan Flynn, and now Cordeiro.

    Earnie Stewart does not get to “hire” the manager. He “proposes” the manager to a board that includes Don Garber, Sunil Gulati (yes, still), Dan Flynn (until the new USSF CEO is appointed), and Cordeiro.

    So yes, SUM pretty much hires the manager. And Garber has made it very clear he expects a pro-MLS coach. That was why Arena was selected to replace Klinsmann instead of Tab Ramos. I also believe Garber is the reason why (though to be clear I have not heard it stated outright) that this is why even though it has long been known Berhalter will be the next coach, he was not named until after the MLS season. Garber did not want anything interfering while he was courting new investors for Columbus.
     
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  6. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We can agree to disagree. Jones and Johnson were the only real impact German-Americans. They alone could not make up for what MLS was not developing.
     
  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So why doesn't this hidden revenue show up in the USSF audited financial reports?

    Surely that's wire fraud?
     
  8. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because the money does not go to USSF. It goes to SUM.
     
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  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #34 Paul Berry, Nov 23, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
    What money? Genuine question?

    It's supposed to be a marketing and promotions company, like IMG or Relevant Sports.

    Sorry if this is taking this thread off-topic.
     
  10. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    SUM started as packaging the rights to the US National Team and World Cup with MLS. At the time, MLS was basically paying to get on TV, while the interest in the national team and World Cup was growing dramatically. Since then, USSF has realized they can completely get around the nonprofit regulations by having revenues go directly to SUM, and only claiming a fraction of that revenue. Today the revenues SUM collects each year can be in the hundreds of millions per year. And the principles of MLS are paid millions in turn.

    This is why the “unpaid” claim of USSF is laughable. He is one of the best paid volunteers in the world.

    The goal initially was to align the interests of USSF and MLS. The result has been to protect the interests of MLS owners and USSF leaders and to make a lot of money.

    It has been a boon for MLS owners, who have seen their club valuations soar. It has been a bust for the US National Team.
     
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  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Never mind it's in the report.

    In 2017 USSF received a fixed payment of $26.25M from SUM.

    Any revenue over the fixed payment is shared between USSF and SUM.

    In 2017 USSF received an additional $7.13M in shared revenue.

    According to the statement USSF had $132.7M is current assets ($104.5M in cash) and $115.6M in long-term assets.

    With no major tournament this year I imagine there would be a deficit for 2018.

    Mind you they saved money on team related expenses in Russia.
     
  12. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The second statement is false. The truth is any additional revenue they decide to share is split. SUM is under no obligation to share all revenues with USSF.
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, any additional revenue from USSF activities is split with SUM.

    I assume the Mexican NT, CONCACAF, CONMEBOL and other non-USSF revenue is not split.
     
  14. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, but also not true. For example, my company is a sponsor of USSF. We pay SUM. That revenue is not shared with USSF. The reality is SUM is under very little governance or oversight. They operate independently, and in the interests of a very few.
     
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  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So why does your company sponsor USSF of the money isn't going to them?

    If it's Nike then it's spelled out in the financial statement. If it's Target it's well documented. Also, if its Target I'd like to know why there is no MLS or USSF gear at my local store.
     
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  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One person, and one person only, is bringing facts to this discussion.
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Yup. In fact this is one factor hindering the development of our domestic youngsters. Increased salaries in the league has led A) to more of the middle-class to upper middle class of USMNT players staying in the league; and B) to the league becoming more and more attractive to foreign talent.

    The average age of foreign talent imported last year by MLS was really low. It wasn't over-the-hill players earning one final paycheck, but young South and Central Americans looking to MLS as a "stepping stone" league. This will only increase as players like Almiron are in fact sold abroad.

    Anyway, to the point of this thread............................anybody thinking this is the "worst stretch" of coaching for the USMNT, hasn't been around very long.

    To be frank, both Arena and Sarachan were just picking up the pieces from where Klinsmann left them shattered all over the place. Lest we forget, Arena actually had a darn good record as USMNT boss the second go-around. Really just one bad loss (a CONCACAF road game). And Sarachan has been nothing more than a lame duck interim boss that was never supposed to be in the job this long. We should all be thankful that Sarachan put "some" effort into this as he could have just totally mailed it in. Could have just gone with veteran-laden nothingness with each USMNT squad. But he has put some effort into giving lots of youngsters a chance.

    So the state of the program is really on Sunil and Klinsmann. Sure, Arena and Sarachan aren't the second coming of Wenger and Ferguson. Hello, we already knew that. I'm not saying they couldn't have done better.....................just that they're not anywhere near as "at fault" as Klinsmann. Lest we forget, Klinsmann was both head coach and technical director. One can ask if he was worse at being the head coach or the technical director. Its a difficult choice. I guess hiring Tab Ramos was his best decision, because at least Tab Ramos is delivering some results as U20 coach and youth technical director. [As youth technical director, Ramos actually has had to put up with a "hiring freeze" which prevented him from hiring coaches for a bunch of openings across USYNTs. To date I think there is still no full-time goalkeeping coach at any level of USYNTs.............boys and girls.]
     
  18. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #43 Susaeta, Nov 23, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
    You assume the disclosures in USSF are comprehensive. They are not. But we are way too far down this rat hole.

    You argued that we must separate MLS from USSF. Here is my POV:

    - Klinsmann, Arena, and Sarachan are all mediocre coaches, but none of them is “at fault.”

    - The primary fault lies within a system - both in MLS and USSF, that has prioritized profits over players.

    - SUM directly aligns the financial interests of MLS and USSF. The commissioner of MLS, the President of USSF, and the CEO of USSF are all also principles in SUM. This makes it extremely hard to separate the two entities.

    - MLS needed to prioritize profits over players. The league made it easier to purchase foreign talent, and harder for American players to break through to the senior teams. DP rules, allocation dollars, etc were intentionally designed to attract foreign players. This was done because the league knew that expansion was important to expand the national footprint, but the US development system was not producing good enough players to support more teams.

    - Sunil created the DA, but the transition took a long time. For the first five years, the DA was the same coaches developing the same types of players.

    - Only it was worse, because now the huge majority of the creative and attacking positions in MLS were being filled by foreign talent. So the players who were making it to the highest levels were the piano carriers needed to fill out MLS rosters with cheaper American talent.

    - The US development system, which is the DA defined by USSF and largely operated by MLS Academy teams, failed to produce international-caliber creators after Donovan and Dempsey.

    - Klinsmann, Arena, and Sarachan coached US teams that lacked the creativity required to sustain the performance levels seen from 2002-2010. German-Americans helped fill that void in 2014.

    - The next coach will inherit the tail end of the US Development dead zone. In the past 4-5 years, some MLS teams have realized they can get an advantage by developing young players, and young creative players. MLS also incentivized development, by allowing teams to keep a higher % of HGP Sales.

    - 2018 saw a big uptick in minutes for young Americans in MLS. It remains to be seen whether young American creators will get the same chances, but I am optimistic. And some MLS Academy creative prospects have opted for Europe.

    - For the next 12-24 months, the next coach will also have to figure out how to manufacture goals with a lot of piano carriers + Pulisic.

    - The current generation of U20s looks like it might finally be a class of good creativity. Tab Ramos did not suddenly become a more creative coach. He finally has better creative talent.

    - Good news further on the horizon, teams like LAFC and Seattle Sounders are really stepping up. Lots of creative talent coming through those systems.

    In summary, you cannot separate MLS from the US team. They are tied together in leadership, finances, and in the same development system that feeds players to the US Team.
     
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  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well Tata would have been the perfect appointment. No-one has enhanced MLS reputation more than he.

    I don't believe that for a second. Arena knows the senior players very well and had experience of running the national team. It was not the time to bring in young players.

    He was the go to guy for most fans. Look at how the crowds swelled at friendly matches after he was appointed.

    Plus I think Ramos' tactics are outdated. The recent successes of the U20 and U16 reflects the talent available, not the coaching. But that's just my opinion.

    My gut suggests that Arena deferred to his senior players, in particular Howard and Bradley, and that's how Johnson got isolated and Gonzo ended up in the team instead of Brooks.

    I'm not a fan of Garber but commercially you can't really knock his record. I wouldn't be surprised if he had delayed the announcement for commercial reasons but we all know that putting business before your country (as they would say in England) is bs.

    SUM and MLS' interests are aligned in that both will benefit from having a successful national team.

    If Garber thinks that appointing a MLS man will improve the reputation of the league then he only has to read this and the Rob Stone thread to see how that's working out.

    Appointing Berhalter over a world-class manager with a solid international record is a huge risk.

    People aren't going to flock to MLS if he succeeds but they'll blame MLS, and SUM, if he fails.
     
  20. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    #45 Patrick167, Nov 27, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
    The USMNT has never had a world class coach. Bora was a specialist and probably the last good hire. He was the perfect coach for the talent pool at the time. Sampson had some of the best talent (all developed without MLS) but was hardly a professional coach, much less a world class talent.

    Arena never was a world class coach. He got further than anyone in one WC, but barely qualified for that WC and was lucky to even get out of the group stage. He was a college coach and could win by having the best talent and not getting in the way. I think he said he had an offer from a bottom table EPL team after 2002 or 2006. But he never pushed himself to that challenge. Staying in MLS and getting paid well without much competition is probably why only now our coaches are slowly trying to move to higher levels (competition in MLS is getting better but it is still a league where you can fail for years and keep your job).

    Bradley had probably the best talent at one time in 2010 and many think he under performed. Yes, losing to Mexico is usually not firable, but the performance that day was of a team that had no idea what is was doing defensively. He proved that he is a good coach after that, but not world class by any stretch. Second Division in France was where he had some success and probably had the talent for promotion but came up short. His failure in the EPL was spectacular.

    Klinsmann was also a good coach but not close to world class, at least tactically. His methods were exhausting mentally, kind of like Mourinho. Good for 2-3 year stints. He was poorly matched to our talent pool. He was good at talent evaluation and must have seen the problem at the end but didn't know how to deal with it.

    Sarachan is not a good coach. Probably not even a good assistant in a coaching sense.

    So, while this might be the three worse in the post-1994 era (Arena in 2017 was much worse than Arena in 2002); I'm not sure we've ever really had a good coach. I think a world class coach might be wasted now and not worth the money. We just need a good coach. Maybe for 2026 our talent pool will be mature enough for more.
     
  21. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course, if that's true, then it's false.
     
  22. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Speaking of absent facts, has the USSF still not announced any plans for using its $150 million dollar surplus to grow the game?

    Other than enriching the Berhalter brothers, of course.
     
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to the 2017 annual report, $50 million of that was in accounts receivable, in other words owed to US Soccer but not yet paid. In contrast only $14 million was in accounts payable.

    The question is why did Gulati squirrel away $110 million into public traded securities.

    Some of the surplus is being spent on the coaching Grassroots Pathway Initiative while much of the rest may have been earmarked for a new national training center.

    "A new national training center would be a massive construction project and investment in the future of American soccer. It would come on the heels of the new National Training and Coaching Development Center being built by Sporting Kansas City, which is due to open in December and become an epicenter for the future of coaching education in the country while also boasting brand new training facilities."

    Similar facilities exist in England (cost $200M), France, Italy and Spain. Germany is set to open a new center in 2021.

    In addition to the expenses, USSF's bottom line will be hit hard in 2018 through the cancellation of the 2018 USMNT's FIFA World Cup victory tour.:p

    I'm not defending US Soccer, simply Googling around to address the question.
     
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  24. #8or#6

    #8or#6 Red Card

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 15, 2017
    Could those accounts receivable have been earmarked for bonuses? Will we be able to see the disbursements from 2017 accounts receivable in the 2018 annual report?
     
  25. #8or#6

    #8or#6 Red Card

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 15, 2017
    Don't be shy. Come right out and and name names. And if you've got some relevant facts you wish to impart, go right ahead. They might even penetrate our tinfoil hats.
     

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