I'd say Zidane. Because I love his technique, I could spend hours watching videos of him on the field.
Henry wasn’t even better than Ronaldinho that season. Ronaldinho didn’t win the Ballon that year because his WC performance was somewhat meh. Canna won it because of his exceptional performance in the WC and also good club performance during 2005-06 season iirc(was voted 2006 Serie A defender of the year).
No he didn't win the PFA award, but he won the FWA and Premier League Player of the Season award. Being instrumental doesn't mean he was the best, but it did mean that he was a key member. It's easy to downplay his goal against S. Korea, but if he didn't score that goal, S. Korea wins the match 1-0, and France is knocked out in the group stage. France needed the win against Togo as well. His goal against Brazil was indeed mostly Zidane's work. Having said that, it was the winning goal. Having witnessed World Cup after World Cup where striker missing clear cut chances changing the course of history (eg. Higuain in the 2014 final) I always appreciate winning goals (eg. Chadli goal vs Japan). Ronaldinho's 2006 UCL campaign is only marginally better than Henry, imo. He was absolutely sensational against Chelsea, but didn't put in a single memorable performance in the remaining 5 matches. Although his assist for Giuly was a beauty, IIRC. At least I remember it being a beautiful pass In the final, it was pretty close again. I genuinely don't remember Ronaldinho being that dangerous at all, but he did make that pass that put Eto'o through, which led to the red card. Henry of course, had the assist, and had a few more moments of threats, although this was partially due to him attacking an exposed back-line, due to the nature of 11 men chasing a goal against 10 men. He also missed his chance to put Arsenal up to 2-0, which would have killed the game, I think. Once again, a single moment changing the course of history. All in all, I actually don't have a problem with anyone rating Ronaldinho and Cannavaro over Henry in 2006. However, it's not clear-cut or objective. These things come down to value-system. Some people, me included, give much more weightings to the overall club season than summer tournaments, even the World Cup.
Well Del Piero scored the majority of those KO goals in one season (5 of the 7 KO goals), but in general your points are valid. For sure he was better in Europe than Totti who never came further than the quarter finals in any European competition (only 3 quarter finals in UEFA Cup + CL; even with Juventus being Rubentus and Roma not punished it doesn't compare). Del Piero was able to operate in a team structure, which he had over Baggio. Cannavaro is called 'overrated' because he suddenly won the Ballon d'Or at the age of 33, while he had never received any points before (he did receive them while he was at Real Madrid, lol). At the same time, few turn him into someone that he wasn't, they don't overextend his abilities. In that sense he isn't overrated and generally pictured well. Compare that to Yashin and Sammer (both a guarantee for many mistakes and gaffes in the years they won).
I've always suspected the Yashin myth to be just that, a myth. I'm not saying he can't be GOAT, but I don't think he's as untouchable as some sources claim either. Sammer is someone I'm personally interested in. I've been meaning to look more into him as I like what I've read of him, and he was playing at a time when I was already interested in football, but I never followed German football that closely. In the 90s, Serie A was my 2nd league, just as La Liga is now.
I agree Ronaldinho 05/06 CL was only marginally better than Henry Dinho vs Henry is too hard to split It is ridiculous to place Ronaldinho in top 30 and Henry 60-70 when they were neck to neck in their primes Canna was the poster boy for Italy’s World Cup trumiph(the captain) In a World Cup year this matters when it comes to ballon dor votes (ie Manuel Neuer 2014,Xavi/iniesta 2010,canna 2006,ronaldo 2002,zidane 1998 Going back 20 years none of these players were arguably best in the world especially R9 02 but won the ballon dor because of a 7 game tournament (Xavi/iniesta 2010came close to Messi in the rankings even though any fan with limited brain capacity knows these players weren’t remotely comparable to Messi) It just goes to show the weight a World Cup performances has on votes Henry was better than dinho in WC 06 but that doesn’t say much as dinho was the biggest disappointment of the entire tournament even moreso than Neymar 2018 (who was actually good but let himself down with his diving antics) Thierry Henry was very unlucky not to win the ballon dor in a weak era 2003-2006 If he peaked in 95-02 he would be even more unlucky (R9,rivaldo,zidane,Del Piero,figo,batistuta,Raul,redondo,bergkamp all at their peak etc) In this current era2007- even less likely to win Shevchenko and nedved won the ballon dor not because they were better footballers or had better performances over the course of the year winning the scudetto pre calciopoli was viewed as being a greater achievement than winning the so called boring/physical premier league (pre 2006)
Myth or not yashin still holds the record of saved penalties (Buffon,schmicheal,zoff,Kahn cannot touch his record) He wasn’t called the black spider for nothing By most accounts he had the athleticism and ability to pull of acrobatic reflex saves like Fabien Barthez, (In his prime as good as any of the current bunch if not better his stint in England killed his reputation.after his first season with Manchester United he just lost motivation and started making the mistakes that are commonly associated with him It is ridiculous how defensively stacked France was during 98-00 one of my favourite teams of all time growing up Barthez was like the Ronaldinho of goalkeepers (crazy ability but lost interest after winning everything) The overrated German goalkeeper Manuel Neuer based his game on Barthez and was/isn’t as good as a sweeper. yashin also had the physical presence of Kahn and the shot stopping ability of a prime Casillas,Peter cech and recently de gea Between the sticks this guy was almost unbeatable He is the the goat in his position matter of fact it is the easiest pick from any position
Yashin was a great player but not in the world cup and had a number of errors in the year he won. He was likely better in 1960. For Sammer I would advise the watch the Portugal, Italy, England matches and also the one against Ajax on footballia. Strong athlete but not really silky and had his gaffes (including the finals). Point is that Cannavaro is never overrated in what he did well.
Always preferred him over Maldini tbh. Reminds me of Baresi. Canna’s performance against Germany in WC 06 is probably up there with Baresi vs Brazil 94.
I think it's crazy how blasphemous it is to consider anyone over Maldini. Personally, Thuram was my favourite defender of that period. I think this might have to do with me having much clearer memories of Thuram's performances in the late 90s and early 2000s than I do of Maldini in the 90s. Nesta is usually rated above Cannavaro as well. Nesta was considered easily the best defender in Serie A and the world during the first half of the 2000s.
I’m sorry, but Baresi was far superior to Maldini IMO. In fact there are few other world class defenders better than Maldini. It isn’t blasphemous to have guys like Gaetano Scirea(the man who benched Baresi for Italian NT)above Maldini as well.
Ronaldinho was physically drained for WC 06. So from a dribbling point of view, his pace just wasn't there. But he made a lot of really good passes. Some of which should have been converted but the team was really dysfunctional as we all know. At Barca he was dishing off passes to speedy Eto'o ... at the WC to Fat Ronaldo and an off form Adriano. He also had to play a bit of a deeper role so that also hurt his scoring chances.
Being physically drained after a lengthy club season doesn’t seem to be applicable excuse for certain players who in fact averaged more games per season than prime Ronaldinho Personally I see his lacklustre performance as a continuation from how he ended the 05/06 season (not strong at all) It is amazing that a 95kg R9 could score 3 goals (including some of the best goals he’s ever scored at a World Cup) But a prime Ronaldinho is to be excused because of a so called lengthy club season (which wasn’t longer than R9 97/98 or Romario 93/94 and not even remotely comparable to peles match schedule In the 50s and 60s(averaged around 80 matches per season including friendlies) Face it Ronaldinho choked and that is primarily the reason why voters weren’t convinced about his ballon dor worthiness (and it didn’t help that he stared 06/07 poorly )
That's a stupid comment and you know it. I just pointed out Ronaldinho played a deeper role which didn't help his scoring chances. And R9 was still a striker where 2 of his goals were put on a platter for him in 06. Nobody will ever debate R9 was a greater goal scorer than Ronaldinho. So what kind of BS comparison is that ? Ronaldinho also played the CC in 05. Perhaps it's his fault he was physically drained given his lack of professionalism off the field, but he still clearly was. Making fun of his lack of scoring is very rich considering CR7s WC scoring record which is pathetic. Considering he is a goal scorer. And he played plenty of manageable teams where he could have scored plenty of goals on.
Ronaldinho played a deeper role so do you have any examples or even stats of his chance creation,passing ability (opta?) R9s record breaking goal vs Ghana shouldn’t of been easy as he had a lot of ground to make up The finish was typical of him but don’t act like any old striker would have the composure or confidence to dispatch that kind of finish (especially one who weighed around 100 kg) The 2nd vs Japan was a worldie no two ways about it and was scored from a position Ronaldinho often found himself in Ronaldinho made one assist on a team fielding R9(who was still a very capable scorer) prime Kaká,prime Adriano (who was very fast and powerful,why couldn’t dinho make sufficient use of this attacking outlet) Added to this dinho was directly outclassed by a 34 year old Zinedine Zidane (who played an even deeper role than dinho)but completely and utterly destroyed that Brazil 06 team There is simply no excuse that he flopped at that World Cup and you are the first Brazilian I’ve ever heard make excuses for him in this instance Note: Since CRs peak his NT teammates have been stragglers(players who would not make the bench of Brazil 98,02 and possibly only prime Nani and Pepe would make the bench in 06) Ronaldinho was a good player on a ridiculously stacked World Cup squad in 02(when his teammates declined he could not shine okay) it is funny but true when marcotti remarked Dick Cheney could’ve scored playing for that 02 Brazil team
All Brazilians will also say the whole team sucked. I am saying that also had a role into how bad he also played. For me R9 sucked even more no matter if he scored 3 goals. The goal vs Ghana the finish was great although all he had to do was put it passed the GK. It's still a very clear goal scoring chance. Any top striker is supposed to more often than not slot that away. Yeah Zidane ran rampant ... but even Ghana was running rampant on us. That's how bad that team turned out to be. They could have beaten us if they had better finishing. Yeah yeah yeah ... Portugal still played some manageable teams in WCs that he should have scored on. You have no leg to stand on. Ronaldinho played well in 02 on his own accord. He contributed quite a bit. His assist to Rivaldo vs England was a world class play and an example where he wasn't just riding on R9 and Rivaldo's stars. But I guess you only expect someone who makes the run, dribbles and then takes the shot himself. Would have had 2 assists in the Final had Ronaldo not fluffed those chances. With all respect to Ronaldo of course. I knew you considered CR7 prime > R10 which is perfectly understandable and I can even admit that. But I didn't know you were such a R10 hater. That's like 5 people in the world.
With all the discussion over defenders, a lot of people who are interested in football history don't seem to rate modern day defenders (even if they are fine with modern football as a whole). So how fair is this, and how would the most highly regarded contemporary defenders such as Ramos or Godin stack up with past greats?
Tbh with you guys this is a player worthy of a 50+ page thread discussing how complete he was as an attacker Tottis position can perhaps be best defined as a trequartista even though he showed he was capable of being a CF as he showed in 2006/07 For his position I’d imagine he’d be a ideal candidate for best ever Italian player I don’t think baggios passing was of a high enough standard to be seriously regarded as a true advanced playmaker He is like a rivaldo (a second striker or forward at most) I think a lot of people generally associate greatness with trophies won which has more to do with the team as a whole than just individual brilliance Francisco Totti did not benefit from a super team edge He was also loyal to his club which had a detrimental effect on his legacy However as a footballer judging his individual qualities and how effective he was at using those qualities for the benefit of his team over a 20 year span his is undoubtedly one of the all time modern greats (For his consistency+peak level) The criteria for defining if one players peak is higher than another is largely baseless and changes from person to person We have a few great midfielders from this era Ignore their trophy cabinets and instead focus on what they bring to their respective teams and you will see totti is definitely not a lesser footballer or talent than Andres iniesta,ribery,robben Besides lacking explosive speed like a ribery or robben (he was quite fast in the late 90s from some matches I reviewed but rapidly declined in this aspect during the early to mid 2000s) And lacking the close control of Andres iniesta he was literally better at everything else Goalscoring As a goalscorer he was greater looking at pure numbers And as a finisher I think he was more versatile he could score any type goal Ribery is a weak finisher and iniesta is borderline terrible Robben is admittedly strong here but he usually scores certain types of goals cutting in from the left and curling it into the top corner I think totti is more varied in his repertoire and he usually played a deeper role then all these players bar iniesta Baggio also won MVP in Serie a 2000/01 playing as a trequartista in front of two strikers Vision (long passing,short passing,through balls,1 touch play,inventive backheels that only a handful of players could ever do) A lot of the passes here are genius level in quality that one would associate with the off the cuff brilliance of a maradona or zico He made one touch passes with the outside of his foot look as easy as Xavi did with 5 yard side way passes His prime is also underrated.many historical revisionsits who seem to forget he was widely considered at the time to be a higher level quality player than kaka in the latters best ever season 2006/07 https://www.xtratime.org/forum/156-world-football/210639-kaka-vs-totti.html#/topics/210639?page=2 Like It has been said many times you cannot expect totti to achieve several titles with roma (and the same can be said of batistuta or even Alan Shearer) You also cannot expect him to be a consistent game changer in big matches although this is the one mark against his legacy that even in the league where the playing ground is levelled he was often outshone in direct encounters by zidane at juventus and R9 at inter For the national team Francisco totti is perhaps a underrated legend In Euro 2000 he was one of the top 3 highest rated players even some sources putting him above Luis Figo and zidane In big matches for Italy he pre assisted the winning goal scored by Del piero vs Germany in the 2006 World Cup semifinal He also pre assisted Italy’s only goal in the Euro 2000 final vs france with a great back heel pass He had solid assist stats and goal stats in major international tournaments From recent Italian players (last 20 years)I think he is only behind of christian vieri and Roberto Baggio In terms of effectiveness at major tournaments I don’t know if totti with a underwhelming record in the champions league and many big Serie A matches where he fell short should make a top 50 list However I think his skillset and completeness as an attacker is only rivalled by a few and in the right club and preferably in an era like today where effectiveness is valued more than aesthetical value he would be more highly regarded then he was in the 90s and early 2000s where there were more flashy players who successfully combined effectiveness with artistry to a level to totti didn’t(and also played for better club teams then he did) What do you think? @PuckVanHeel @ko242 @PDG1978 @Edhardy
I'd suspect those views on the Totti-Kaka thread won't have changed much, except those saying Kaka can have the better career might conclude it didn't turn out that way (not entirely due to himself). As suggested a Totti-Kaka prime hybrid would be a very effective player I guess, but maybe not superior to a Bergkamp Ajax/Bergkamp Arsenal hybrid (although Bergkamp was certainly a useful passer in his Ajax days already, and still for me relatively quick in his earlier Arsenal days, and he'd be far from the only one who was never at 'optimum version' at one point considering all attributes - maybe it even applies to Maradona too to mention a non-European, as good as he was vs Belgium in 1986 and suchlike, or on his day at Boca/Barcelona etc).
Totti with Kaka's pace would be absolutely ridiculous. I don't think there's any player who is ever actually at their 'optimum version' anyway. By the time CR7 becomes as good as he has been at everything else, he was no longer as fast as he was back in Man Utd and his early Madrid days, for example. Messi between 2009-2012 was also not the playmaker he is now. It's not just his passing has improved, but his decision-making is Xavi-esque. It's almost always the right decision. Maradona before WC86, say 82-86 was of course one of the best dribbler of all time. However, his reputation for GOAT level passing was made between 87-92, maybe a bit after as well, when he lost his athletic edge. Obviously, with these players it's not so easy to tell. Messi now, or perhaps in 2015, would still be one of the best dribbler, if not still the best, while being as technically complete as any player that ever existed, but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that he is not as great a dribbler as he was back in his early 20s when his combination of pace, acceleration, agility, and balance was almost inhumane.
Yeah, it could be an interesting sub-topic: maybe this thread not the best for it as in theory we're off topic by mentioning non-Europeans lol! On that note, it's hard for obvious reasons to make a good assessment of Pele in 1961 for example. Some claims/observations he was a useful and clever passer in the early 60s or even before, added to ideas his playmaking impact was over-stated in 1970, might seem to make a case potentially, but then there are ideas he even peaked in 1970 with the added vision and inspiration. Cruyff in 1974 might be there or thereabouts all in all, but was not entirely fit during the WC and I suppose not quite as explosive as in his youth pace wise strictly speaking - did his passing and playmaking even peak in the 80s too? Maybe it's a case of who came closest, and we'd have to consider changing roles (which might just bring out different facets more). Then there are players like Van Basten and Baggio who had ongoing injury issues, so did they never truly reach optimum potential because of those, or did they just reach it for short periods here and there?
I won't add a disagreement on Messi being as technically complete as any player ever this time lol, especially on a European players thread, but though I'd have doubts I'd see basically where you come from too I think anyway. What I did find funny haha, (and I'm not 100% sure if it was a temporary slip from your normally impeccable English Poet, or even spell correction software messing things up, or a deliberate choice verging on double entendre), is the statement his dribbling was inhumane - based on cruelty to defenders maybe that is a better word to use than inhuman indeed (which might fit more with comparisons to aliens or talk of HGH etc!).
Players who never reached their prime due to injury is unforunately quite common. I thought Basten did reach his peak in the early 90s, before his brutal injury? Haha. That was indeed an honest mistake English is not my first language. Getting involved in these internet forums was one of the ways I learned English actually. But yes, I think it actually worked out well by your definition. What Messi used to do to defenders went against the Geneva Convention. True. I'd consider Messi as the closest. I think he came closest to being, at a given moment, the single best player at dribbling, playmaking, and scoring goals in the world. By some accounts, Pele was such a player in the early 60s, but I can't comment as I haven't seen enough of him. An undeniable advantage Messi has is of course the very simple fact that no one before this era had the luxury of having 15 years (say intense training starts at around 15 years old) of intellectual, mental, tactical, and technical development and still has the physical advantages that he does. CR7 and Messi, like many of their contemporaries, are athletic freaks by historical standards. Very few players before their time would still be in such a physical shape post-30, especially for a player like Messi who's been getting kicked all his career. If he was playing in the 70s, even if he received the HGH to overcome his childhood physical disadvantages, there is no way he'd still be his quick at this age. It is a combination of discipline, professionalism, and of course advances in sports science. This is why CR7 can develop into, imho, the single most complete goal-scorer of all time, and Messi, the most complete attacker of all time.