Dennis bergkamp the forgotten all timer

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Nov 18, 2018.

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Is Dennis bergkamp criminally underrated?

  1. Yes he definitely is

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  2. No he is correctly rated

    4 vote(s)
    36.4%
  3. he is overrated

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    We all heard the stories of him suffering from flight phobia hence the nickname non flying Dutch
    I prefer to call him the iceman,a genuis player with genuis touch,the best through ball passer since laudrup imo
    I’ll make the case that it was in fact him and not Van Basten that was the true heir to Johan Cruyff

    In his stellar club career he was the brain behind Arsenal’s greatest period of dominance
    The star player of Holland’s 90s golden generation leading his team to World Cup semifinals finishes in 94 and 98 being beaten by the eventual winners on both occasions

    Like Cruyff before him Dennis bergamp was a forward in the early part of his career and made the transition into de facto playmaker in the latter part

    In my personal opinion I think he was the best playmaker of the late 90s better than zidane who only had more exposure because of his presence on the international stage and champions league
    Bergkamps 1997/98 club season remains my top 3 PL season of all time.
    In this age of advanced of statistics we measure a player by his effectiveness and not necessarily his aesthetical value

    In Dennis bergkamp we have a player in his prime who averaged the same amount of goals as cantona and assisted and created chances like Kevin De Bruyne
    Even besides his lack of impact in the champions league I think his failure in Italy is blown out of proportion

    Yes he did not reach the dazzling heights he did in Holland and later arsenal but there is more to it than that
    A gifted technical genius like bergkamp isn’t suited to play the boring ,defensive and conservative football of inter Milan
    Instead he should’ve gone to Barcelona
    I would’ve opted for bergkamps vision and dribbling in tight spaces over stoichkovs runs and crosses.
    Personally I think he would’ve been a perfect strike partner for Romario (being fed chances by laudrup and bergkamp is stuff of dreams)

    Remember Henry was arguably a worse failure in juventus and not much is made of that

    Bergkamp is in my opinion the most technically gifted European playmaker of all time (beating of competition by zidane,hagi,savecivic,iniesta and slightly edging Micheal laudrup in all round technical skillset after he was a better finisher and pretty much equal in everything else)
    Cruyffs prime position is harder to define
    If he was a forward up to 1974(his ballon dor years) then it is possible bergamp reached his level between 75-78 when he wasn’t as dominant

    Van Basten was great of course but only as a number 9
    He may of had greater achievements,or recognition but this did not mean he had the all round game or technical level of bergkamp

    This video the “golden touch” combined with pucks evaluation of him on the arjen robben thread is what inspired me to start this thread
    And of course his glaring omission from all time lists is a travesty in my opinion
     
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  2. darov81

    darov81 New Member

    FC Barcelona
    Poland
    Oct 5, 2017
    Bergkamp is and always will be one of my favourite offensive players, top 10 for sure.

    I think he is underrated, maybe not criminally but still. His lack of big moments in WC/UCL semis or finals cost him too much. People give too much credit when some players scores in this games. And underrated players who hasn't but are more consistent, regular, skillfull.

    Bergkamp was true genius, one of best players in the 90's. One od best ever in Holland history. The fact that his teams never won WC or UCL don't make him a worse player. I don't understand when some rank him below players like Romario, Raul, Stoitchkov Figo or Robben.

    In the other hand, if Holland won WC 98 and Euro 2000 , Bergkamp would be rank at least as high as Zizou is. It's how does it work. People always has a tendency to rank higher big moments or 1-2 big seasons than consistency. Thats why Zidane very often is rank in TOP 5 ever or Ronaldinho too high than he should to be.
    And Bergkamp too low.....
     
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  3. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I remember the Arsenal fans getting very frustrated with him at around the turn of the century. It was a transitional period for us and for him. It was post Anelka, Petit, and Overmars. Henry, Ljungberg, and Cole didn't fully establish themselves yet. Pires had a mediocre first season.

    Some were even suggesting selling him because he was suppose to be our star player, but he didn't live up to expectation. For almost two seasons, Bergkamp was quite inconsistent with only the occasional moment of magic to show.

    Of course, the transition was completed by 2001. Other players stepped up as the star players. Bergkamp transitioned into a more supportive role, and the rest was history.
     
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  4. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #4 Sexy Beast, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
    Physicality is too important aspect of football for it, lack of, to be compensated in some way, therefore he is rated just fine on the all time list, which is one of the best of his generation.
     
  5. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia



    There is no technical ability that beats these
     
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  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    These are just athletic runs(sprinters like bolt or Lewis)
    Running past 1-2 players (something prime Henry was VERY capable of doing)


    Technique can help you beat 5 players in 4 touches


    Or shield the ball from the attention of 2-3 players in a area the size of a telephone box before delivering an inch perfect through ball assist


    Tbh honest you could’ve picked better examples from R9 in terms of close control dribbling vs multiple opponents

    He suffered a near career ending injury not long after this so this was one of the last chances we saw of prime R9 (I believe he was still 22 years old here)
     
  7. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    ....in these situations

    Obviously, nothing beats pace and power during counter-attacks. Up against a parked bus though, you want the technicians.

    Elite level technicians are just as special as elite level athletes. There is no physically dominant midfielders who could do what Xavi/Iniesta did for Barcelona and Spain, for example.

    In fact, if we consider that the fact that Bergkamp was as much a creator as he was a finisher, technique become even more important. The vast majority of good chances created in football are results of good technique not good athleticism because good passes/crosses rely on technique and vision and anticipation more so than any physical attribute.

    Even for scoring goals, a top athlete like CR7 relies more on his technical skills and movement to score goals against parked buses. How many goals do you see CR7 score against deep defenses that were a product of his athleticism? I'd bet a lot less than the goals he score from getting into good positions and good finishing of great chances created by elite level technicians.

    Lastly, tell me what physical attribute could have substituted for the first touch of this goal?
     
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  8. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    dont be a hypocrite..

    You are the first one to say Cristiano 2008 > Cristiano 2018,.. mostly, i assume, cuze of his explosivness back then.

    We wouldnt have discussions on players' peaks and primes if physicality wasnt the key aspect of football. 46 year old Zidane (among others) is still very much capable of flawless first touch like shown in the video, i dont see him playing professionally for anyone lately. Drop in physicality is THE reason why players retire, analogously, it's the reason why players succeed at the highest level.

    I know that goes against football's romanticism, but that's an undeniable observation. Physicality > technicality, any day of the week.

    Mbappe 19 > Isco 19
     
  9. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Needless to say, physicality + technicality is the winning ticket. Maradona, Messi, R9,...
     
  10. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'm actually a fan of athletic players over the technicians, which is why my favourite Arsenal player is Patrick Vieira.

    Retired players is a stupid point to raise. Obviously you need a certain level of physique to be able to play football at the very top level.

    The reason Mbappe is superior to Isco is not because physique > technique. It is because Mbappe, as a whole package, is superior to Isco. That's athleticism, technique, intelligence, mentality, etc. He is vastly more athletic, but also a fine technician himself. There are plenty of players who are better athletes than Isco who doesn't come close to his overall quality. Was Adebayor ever one of the world's best?

    There is no clear correlation between having the more athletic players and winning, with maybe the exception of stamina. Otherwise Ivory Coast would dominate Spain.

    Surely, one of the beauties of football is that you can win the game in many ways.
     
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  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #11 carlito86, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
    If you think prime CR7 had only his “explosiveness” to offer than perhaps you did not watch his prime

    CRonaldo had a legendary almost complete technical skill set (not just ball skills and finishing)
    He could control the ball like a zidane(with elegance) or like a Ronaldinho (with extravagance)


    Cassano level instant control with World class finish



    Back control that wouldn’t look out of place on a Ronaldinhos highlight reel



    Mid air control with sombrero in a high pressure situation (not for showboating like Ronaldinho or recently Neymar)

    R9 was a great athlete with superb ball skills but he played football on ground level ONLY
    he couldn’t manipulate the ball mid air to this same extent like Pele,maradona could,or Romario sometimes,Ronaldinho and Cristiano Ronaldo
    That is a higher degree of technical ability imo
     
  12. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    You are missing the point. Point is that an underlying factor in football is physicality.

    Think of the technically least gifted, active, professional midfielder you know. I guarantee you, he is better than 46 year old Zidane... ponder why.

    Physicality, a lack of it, is what makes you inferior to others and vice versa. Its effect on your performance is immensly greater than that of technical skills.

    If Mbappe wasnt as fast, he would be just like the next young prospect.. speed gives him the edge.

    You have CR vs CR scenario, which implies that you think he lost a huge portion of his skillset, else what youve just rambled makes no sense
    I think “explosiveness” is the difference between these two versions of Ronaldo
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I will try to reply tomorrow or tuesday Carlito and then also include this post of the other thread.
     
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  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    2 of the 3 examples I picked where from when ronaldo was at his “explosive best”
    2007-2012

    Ronaldo did not deteriorate technically even in his current version
    He just lost mobility and agility to weave past defenders and his explosive first step to power past them

    His first touch and ball control remains as it always was of a legendary standard
    btw Theo wallcot from Arsenal could also (very rarely) produce the type of runs you showed from R9 and mbappe
    Tbh it is great viewing and gets you out of your chair (in excitement)
    But it’s not the case that explosive sprinting covering acres of space always beats technical skills

    Some players are gifted enough they can produce the same result with less energy expended and less touches on the ball
    After all It is a matter of preference
     
  15. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The underlying factor in TOP-LEVEL football is both technique and athleticism actually. You need a minimum level of both to be able to play at this level. Of course Zidane isn't a top level footballer anymore because he lack the minimum athleticism for it. Do you think Usain Bolt or Lebron James could play UCL football? After all, they have better athleticism than almost anyone. Could their pace and power just make up for their lack of everything else? No, of course not. You need a minimum level of technique and know how to play at top-level football. No amount of athleticism can make up for that.

    The original point was that a player like Bergkamp who was elite at pretty much everything (world-class technique, intelligence, and mentality) except athleticism cannot be rated more highly because of his physical limitations.

    This raises the question of how important each attributes are. For example, is Stoichkov who was much more athletic than Bergkamp, but also a great technician, better than Bergkamp? What about Ruud Gullit? What about Rivaldo? It's not clear cut is it, even when you compare Bergkamp with someone who seem to have both the physical and technical abilities.
     
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  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    To be fair, just to complicate matters, I feel I should state I see Bergkamp as a better athlete and certainly quicker (by a margin when he was younger too) than Rivaldo. Quicker than Platini too for sure (Platini perhaps had better stamina?). Platini gets rated as a top 10 player, so I'd feel if Bergkamp isn't to be regarded at that level (at peak and/or career wise) it can't be just due to lack of physical capabilities (particularly as he really didn't lack in that way for me, although compared to some old-timers ok he did, and he became slower to a degree relatively early in his career before his Arsenal prime I suppose).

    And I'd feel Bergkamp as technician > Stoichkov to a bigger degree than vice versa physically.

    But there is some truth in physical abilities, particularly speed, adding a lot for a player. I sort of wonder whether Nigel Clough, if he ran as fast as Thierry Henry, could have been just as good overall for example. And back to Platini, even without the same dribbling skills regardless of pace, overall game wise maybe he'd have been as effective as absolute peak form Maradona if he'd been just as quick? So it's not set in stone but of course it can help. But for a while Platini was the best in the world, and some at least suggest Xavi was for a brief period too (he was great stamina wise but again not pace wise, and with less 'power' and size than Bergkamp too).
     
  17. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's not obvious though that a slower player like Platini would have developed the technique that he did if he was as fast as Maradona.

    I reckon Bergkamp's technique would be of a different style, if not of lower quality, if he had the pace of Henry.

    While physical limitations are well acknowledged, should we not also take technical and intellectual limitations into account? Could Adebayor, for example, ever really have the technique of a Robin van Persie? Is it possible for Walcott to ever have the same vision and anticipation that Bergkamp did? If training can only take you so far physically, could the same not be true for technique and intelligence?
     
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  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I agree
    So if a young 2nd place ballon dor Dennis bergkamp wasn’t athletically inferior when compared to top 20 all timers zidane,platini,zico than we are in theory saying he couldn’t match them technically

    Personally I think it his career resume that puts him out of a top 20
    What did he lack in terms of technical ability when compared to the likes of Eusebio,zidane,Gullit,Van Basten,Romario,rivaldo,R9,Charlton etc (nothing I would say)
    Bergkamp was a very complete player ,in fact in terms of complete offensive players I would only put a few ahead and I’m
    talking about players like platini,maradona zico,Messi,Cruyff,Cristiano

    I cannot review footage of prime puskas so cannot comment although reports that he was a inside forward playmaker in Hungary sound convincing and would point towards him being a complete offensive player

    Dennis Bergkamp was in the same mould as these players but less dominant,less consistent and with not enough chances to show his talent in the champions league knockout stages (where the club legends are made)
    He is completely underrated imo especially when people are unsure if he was better than Thierry Henry for example
    Even Henry had to personally thank him for laying on 30-40% of his goals and I read a crazy stat a while ago that said bergkamp was involved in 40-45% of arsenals goals as a playmaker/forward for the duration of his time there
     
  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    not ability related question....
    I didn't check it, but he pretty much didn't play any games CL on mainland Europe at all after his fear of flying started, right?
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I agree. I know it can be said that technique is trained/practiced and perfected, but there is still a limit and players do have natural talents and abilities/capabilities.

    I was trying to add some videos to back up the Bergkamp pace as a young player statement and it's bugging me a bit that I can't quite recall where Ray Wilkins comments on his pace in a Serie A game (against another fast player defending against him), but there is this one anyway and maybe the defensive contribution from 6:10 even shows his pace and athleticism the best:

    He could still run pretty quick in 97/98 though compared to an average player I'd say, with 0:20 here being a case in point perhaps (he was never as quick as his Dutch/Arsenal team-mate Overmars though for sure!):

    From 1:32 here he shows he could still run in 2003 though even (again compared to averagely-paced players, when he decided/needed to sprint):


    Not trying to make a big issue of it anyway as it doesn't completely change the argument, but I feel it's a bit of a misconception when he is branded 'slow' at times - probably Euro 92 footage and some Ajax clips can show even better what I mean.

    This goal shows he had some power (although timing/technique plays a part of course):

    Even if this kind of 'touch' goal was more his trademark:
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the main I'd like to refer to this:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/du...ation-1979-1994.1978389/page-14#post-37196072
    (with also links to more critical parts)

    I think he's included quite often (World Soccer top 100, Four Four Two etc., the 1999 ). Of his generation only Baggio, Romario, Maldini and Batistuta are generally put higher. With that I mean the players who were top class in both halves of the 1990s (as said before: that are very few players, most probably because of the vast changes at all levels going on compared to the 1995 - 2005 era). He's occasionally included in discussions about the best Premier League player.

    The 1999 IFFHS Century Election had him as 64th best European. If I look at others of that era/batch then I see Baggio at 53th, Hagi at 56th, Maldini 70th with Zidane yet to make the top 100 (obviously also Figo, ADP and the rest).


    Yes I agree with this. He made it relatively hard to ignore him though. He had some big performances against Germany, Italy's legendary defense, the qualifiers against England, UEFA Cup etc.

    Also moments like this:

    (he received a standing ovation for this, and this went around the world).


    There was a transition period where he also struggled with injuries and played through them (in particular 2000-01 was below par), but Arsenal didn't do as well in the league games he couldn't start between August 1999 and March 2001 (by then ManUnited was 12 points clear). In this period Arsenal won 9 league games, drew 11 and lost 8 matches in the matches he was unable to start. I'd think this breakdown doesn't look particularly great for a team that still ended 2nd in the league each season. He was 11 times a substitute and half of the times it resulted in turning around & winning points for his team. I'd think he was pretty instrumental for the team's fortunes even if he was struggling.

    ......... (to be continued)
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Being ranked 64th best European player of all time is the equivalent of not being recognised as great enough
    Who were this 63 European players that were definitely better than him
    Especially considering 1990-1999 encompasses at least 80% of his prime I find it hard to believe there were that many European players let alone world players who made a greater impact than he did

    Note:
    In what competition were these goals scored against Real Madrid
     
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  23. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I never watched much of Bergkamp. Saw some of his late stuff at Arsenal when he was more or less past his prime. But nobody brings the ball more beautifully than him with his feet.
     
  24. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Hahaa!!
    But you don't get this type of room against tight defenses when teams pack it in. Where technicality beats speed.

    But I see the point you are trying to make
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #25 carlito86, Nov 19, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
    “The best player in the world does not exist; in terms of an end-state, someone who reaches the final or even beyond that.

    Many people exist who say “but Player X had more of this and Player Y had more of that”.

    You can say, okay, a series of great players existed, whether you take Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Maradona or Pele and say ‘those players had so many various qualities, so they belong to an “executive elite”‘ – that is a possibility.

    There is, of course, never a ‘best’ one. Many different components and aspects have a say in the game, and a role to fulfil.

    However, if you think about the word ‘footballer’, you have to have something in mind.

    It is not the definition of all player – you do not publish a picture of Pele in the dictionary and say ‘this is thefootballer’, he would just be a representation of the word. The form, the shape of the idea.

    They will accuse me of short-sightedness, but if I think about a guitarist, I see Keith Richards; if I think about a painter, Johannes Vermeer.

    But if someone were to wake me up and ask me ‘footballer’, I tend to see Dennis Bergkamp. He looks like a footballer to me.

    Johan Cruyff


    Cruyff as we all know was a genius footballer but a completely underrated philosopher
    You will never hear such a measured or in depth response to a football related question from players like maradona or Pele
    (they seem to have left their brains on the pitch.
    The late johan Cruyff strikes me as a person who could’ve been anything he wanted and reached the pinnacle of his desired profession

    I think for others like Pele,garrincha,maradona etc football was their only way out of poverty and were to an extent lucky that they were discovered(and to their credit disclipined enough to reach the top of the game)

    Bringing this back to bergkamp I can’t imagine a higher praise than what has been said here by Cruyff.
    He was indeed a prototype of total technique and he was extremely effective (never or hardly used his ability to showboat)
    If you were in awe of a certain pass he made,ball retention skill he performed or even goal he scored I’m pretty sure that wasn’t his desired intention
    That was just the only way he knew how to play football
     
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