Cannavaro was my favourite clear top 3 CB of his era with nesta and one can’t forget peak jaap Stamm (Even fergie noted letting him go was one of the biggest managerial mistakes he ever made-and he did not regret letting RVN go ,scorer of 150 goals in little over 200 games Many fans are clueless and think Cannavaro is overrated because he won the ballon dor He was not a deserving winner but this did not make him overrated in the slightest Also his Madrid career was a disaster in my opinion it hurt his legacy like sheva and Chelsea It is a mark of how great Italy’s defenders were that standout defenders of this generation like bonucci would be a bench warmer in Euro 2000 and World Cup 94 In World Cup 82 he would not have a seat on the plane let alone the team (Scirea kept the great baresi on the bench and was arguably better than all at least according to my older brothers even better technically than Facchetti which I find hard to believe)
It would be difficult to argue coherently if each time you don't agree with my appreciations you suppose strange things: sides, inclinations, worldwide mafias and machineries, because it's easier for you to believe that when anyone not coincide with you (I've noticed other discussions which you're involved). You could try to judge if it's not you who is usually biased, especially when there is a Dutch player involved (you must admit that it's the most suspicious). It's very difficult for me to see the clarity you mention. I agree that Eusébio reached a higher peak of performance, but, on the contrary, I think that Charlton has an enormous consistency in his favor throughout the decade (1960-1969) with just a couple of years of depressions, somewhat affected by a few early years and the last loose of Manchester United. Forced I'd opt for Eusébio, but I don't see clarity itself. I'd also think strange to your mood. As in the previous case, forced I'd also go for Platini, who in general seems to me clearly a superior player, but cutting the 1984-85 and 1985-86 seasons and taking into account that he (Rummenigge) probably started the 1980's (1979-80 and 1980-81) at a higher level (or at least with higher estimates) I think the German could have an opportunity with what for me were sublime technical skills and powerful physical condition combined at his peak.
Well, the period that I mention is 10 years and I think in that lapse the focus on peak performance changes a bit or balances with consistency. In shorter lapses I suppose that the offensive players are better benefited in my opinion.
First of all: the most suspicious is you making up many things like going to the RAI archives to watch (almost) all games of Leo Junior. Second, as a response to my post (my opening bid, if you like) you just dump your own and then think your fancy boldfaces will look authoritative or so (not everyone will be tricked by your gimmicky formatting). It is you who is making conversation difficult by just quoting my attempt and merely do a listdump, but your bait has worked. Third, I've already conclusively proven your personal inclination. I've already spelled out what starting player with two Champions Leagues has the lowest inclusions, and which nationality he has; who is the player with three or more Champions Leagues as starter (+ crucial assists) and the lowest inclusions; the nationality of the only player to not be among the first 100 while playing CL final and euro/WC final as captain. Also your lists here - including your 'periphery' list as well - show your knocking down and downward tendency in my view. A prime example of a double handicap. "Enormous consistency" was not how it was seen in their own time, hence Law was the king and not Charlton's excellence. There we have already a fundamental difference in perception. That is before going into things as Eusebio having several seasons/moments where he was a big protagonist in Europe (starting in 1962) while Charlton had arguably 0 or 1 at best. He did have a much better weak foot. Even so, the perceived peak should already be more or less sufficient given your pick of Baggio for the 1990s - a pick I'm also leaning to (funnily, here the European to appear in your top three/five for both halves, actually twice in each half, is dutch - I included him as outside alternative but you excluded obviously). Cutting those seasons still leaves euro 1984 included, not to mention three direct encounters between both players. Platini was third and fourth in BdO when Rummenigge won his. Not only that, before Rummenigge made it into the top five for the first time (Platini was there as well in 1979), Platini had already been included twice in the top five. I think it is not a bold thing to say Platini (born same year) was a world elite player before Rummenigge became an elite player. Also struggle to see the sublime technique (certainly next to Platini). Athletic, bullish, fast, strong and acrobatic, absolutely. Either way, fair enough about this.
Yeah that's the game, 1-1 game, second leg game. Inter should've scored the 2-1 goal late in the game, and that 2-1 goal really would've been created by Maldini in the sense that it was a relatively easy situation to defend, that is, a situation where you should expect that a defender like Maldini would routinely contain the situation rather effortlessly, but as it happened a situation where Maldini came very close to - virtually out of nothing - creating Inter's 2-1 goal, etc. Also worth noting is the fact that Christian Vieri was injured and did not played a single second of either game. Inter 2002/03 without Vieri was - and this is not an exaggeration - a club without its soul... and yet, Inter would've played the CL Final had they converted the relatively easy chance that they failed to convert late in the second leg vs. AC Milan. Similarly, Juventus 2002/03 without Nedved was also a club without its soul... and yet, Juventus came close to winning that CL Final. Overall, AC Milan was distinctly lucky I'd argue.
Maldini, Nesta, and Cannavaro, were all terrific defenders to watch, but it is probably Cannavaro that I enjoy watching the most out of that holy trinity: high jumping ability (probably better than both Maldini and Nesta in the air, where I'd argue that Maldini is definitely inferior compared to Nesta and Cannavaro), very fast - for a centre back - in terms of short sprints, competitive top speed in terms of long distance sprints, and terrific at man-marking ability (albeit his ability at sliding tackles doesn't appear to be anything special nor out of the ordinary I'd say), etc. Overall, a very well rounded centre back, and one that was impressive to watch in a context that also included the likes of Maldini, Nesta, Thuram, Stam (some would say after his prime, but I think that Stam was still a great centre back in his Lazio days, and to a lesser extent also in his AC Milan days), etc. On a different note, I think it's crazy how Inter sold Cannavaro after only 2 seasons... I mean, Cannavaro - when he wasn't injured - seemed to always be good or even great for Inter. I imagine there were a lot of Inter fans who shouldn't have been surprised when Cannavaro was very good late in his Serie A career, when he played two seasons for Juventus, culminating with his World Cup 2006.
I haven't watched it again since (I just saw a Zola vs England video on YouTube) but I remember thinking Cannavaro's defending was really effective and notable, particularly in marking/defending against Shearer, in the 1997 qualifier between England and Italy and Wembley. That's the first time he really came to my attention in that respect. There is a glimpse here: https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...voids-a-tackle-by-italys-news-photo/829899446 I'm not suggesting you watch if you don't want, or promising his display was impressive as I'm thinking I'm recalling (because I recall more the memory of being impressed rather than the memory of how exactly, except seeming to think it was tackling/blocking Shearer quite often largely), but I know you like recommendations so hesitantly I'd add that one, and it is available on Footballia: https://footballia.net/matches/england-italy-world-cup-qualification
That's a bit unfortunate. It's not the first time you try to link what you think is a lie as if it were a fact in threads that don't correspond. According to this subject, what seems suspicious is that you startle every time anyone estimate a Dutch player in a way that you don't agree because for you he's superior to that idea... being you Dutch. It's obvious that everything indicates that you're biased consciously or unconsciously by your own envinroment, not that everyone else of different nationalities is (taking me into account as Peruvian) and we have something against the Netherlands and its players (an argument what I think you're falling into the absurd or, at least, it has very little coherence). I didn't understand your point in this second paragraph. I think you're rambling, but as for authoritative tone, it's just my literal English about my personal opinions in this thread. I think the discussion would be easier and more useful if you abandon those ideas of anti-Dutch inclination and we refer to the players only by their careers and abilities, not for their nationalities. I feel like you have a complicated entanglement there that is hard to argue with. It's nothing close to what I've reviewed so far on Charlton. What I've perceived is that he was already a promising player at European level in the second half of the 1950's and had his first explosion in the 1958-59 season, while he had a stellar beginning of the decade of the 1960's playing as left-winger that was a bit overshadowed in terms of result as Manchester United recovered from the Munich air disaster. What certainly makes me a little doubt is that it doesn't seem to have been dominant in the estimates in England (just only once elected as FWA Footballer of the Year), but some English friends explained to me that this could be to the tendency to vary this award (what makes sense reviewing the winners at that time). I also think I understand how Best and Law could have been seen more spectacularly in certain periods but Charlton being a heaver option in a retrospective view of the entire decade. I'll need a better explanation of the commentary mate. I'm not sure about the results of the Ballon d'Or. This is my particular vision: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 1974-75: - (Debut Season) 1975-76: National Class 1976-77: International Class 1977-78: International Class (Bundesliga TOTS) 1978-79: World Class (European Top 5-10) 1979-80: Crown Class (The Best European) 1980-81: Crown Class (The Best European) 1981-82: World Class (European Top 3) 1982-83: World Class (European Top 5) 1983-84: World Class (European Top 3) Michel Platini 1974-75: - (Ligue 2) 1975-76: International Class 1976-77: World Class (European Top 5-10) 1977-78: World Class (European Top 10) 1978-79: National Class (Injury Problems) 1979-80: World Class (European Top 10-15) 1980-81: World Class (European Top 5) 1981-82: World Class (European Top 3) 1982-83: Crown Class (The Best European) 1983-84: Legendary Class (The Best European)
Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion, too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... You... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one
Yes you're right I will do a pause. I love Belgium. pic.twitter.com/YAqn5zTKgt— Ach ja. (@RudolfdeReiger) October 30, 2018
Sorry, I missed your response. Marcotti might be better qualified to speak about the Serie A and Italian players (what I cited above). He is born in 1973 thus perhaps too young for really knowing Zico. He is old enough for getting a taste of the Serie A glory period. Personally I like him and his work, and his overall grasp/weighing of what is going on. https://www.acast.com/thetotallyitalianfootballshow/paolo-maldini-a-milan-man-apart https://www.acast.com/thetotallyitalianfootballshow/the-divine-roberto-baggio Also liked his take on El Flaco https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14386258.gabriele-marcotti-on-the-genius-of-johan-cruyff/ http://kwese.espn.com/football/blog...f-refined-total-football-as-games-trailblazer
A player who unfortunately is not mentioned amongst legendary CB is nemanja vidic A player who arguably outshone Cristiano Ronaldo in his prime during the 2008/09 premier league season His partnership with Rio Ferdinand was stuff of legends (just check how many goals Manchester United conceded in 2007/08) I don’t understand how the overrated Thiago Silva managed to recieve more plaudits then this guy For a defender he had underrated distribution of the ball probably not on par with other great CB but still great nonetheless(many of United’s counter attacks in fact started with a vidic clearance) If ronaldo was the spearhead and creative force behind Manchester United’s greatest period in their history than vidic and Ferdinand were certainly it’s backbone and pivotal players in the team Manchester United between 2007-2009 was not inferior to saachis Milan neither defensively and certainly not offensively In fact I find that Manchester United 07-09 being an underrated team plays a huge part in why defenders like vidic and Ferdinand aren’t perceived as legendary defenders(in the same mould as cannavaro,nesta,thuram etc) Winning 3 consecutive league titles and making 2 consecutive champions league finals (winning one) isn’t something many teams have done Bayern Munich dominanted a “weak league “ and didn’t have a sustained period of dominance in the champions league 2012/13 was one of the greatest club seasons of all time but they were demolished in the 13-14 champions league semifinals One must take into consideration Manchester United were not a high scoring team (not even remotely comparable in goals scored to Barcelona,Madrid and Bayern in recent years not even Manchester City aswell who have consistently failed in the champions league) Manchester United could counter attack at will because they were completely confident in their backline (Micheal carrick included who is the busquets of the premier league era) Tactically they weren’t deficient in any area of the pitch and SAF deserves huge credit for being such a versatile tactician during this period (even though he got it horribly wrong in the 2009 champions league final-personally I don’t think that 08/09 Barcelona team was unbeatable like 2011.)
Good to notice how Gazzetta dello Sport in 2015 included Cannavaro among the 20 best Italian players ever (the order was voted by readers but the 20 men shortlist was by themselves) https://www.ilpost.it/2015/08/15/cl...taliani-gazzetta/gianni-rivera-peter-bonetti/ To a very large degree the creative talent (Rivera, Baggio, ADP, Totti) has more 'scars' than their foremost defenders (which then to an extent adds to their greatness, too). I have the idea neither of them have the universal untouchable status of a Maldini, Buffon or Scirea (Cannavaro ended his career with some 'scars' too, as you note). https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/baggio-in-crisis-after-glittering-career-1.126337 https://www.theguardian.com/football/2000/jun/24/euro2000.sport8 https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...s-greatest-son-who-never-got-love-he-deserved (personally I found ADP at his peak a class better as Totti) I also came across something else, which I hope to receive soon...
Agreed totally and imo there is no doubt about People tend to rate Del Piero highly because of his likeable personality (unlike the dirty bastard totti) but I cannot stress enough how great a player Del Piero was at his peak Firstly he had the agility, pace and finishing to hurt teams like nobody could in the mid to late 90s with the exception of R9 Let’s also not lose sight of things here during their playing careers both R9 and Del Piero were viewed to be roughly around the same level at least in the Italian press they were calling Del Piero In 97/98 the real phenomenon Totti was never at the level of someone who considered a top 3 player in the world. His big game record is also mediocre in comparison(Del Piero made his name owning teams in the champions league knockout stages during his peak 95-99) Prime Del Piero IMO was almost at baggios peak level but lacked in certain departments (mainly in vision and close control but Del Piero pre injury was faster and also a better finisher in his prime)
Top 60 European players of all time Tier 1 Giuseppe Meazza Johan Cruyff Cristiano Ronaldo Matthias Sindelar Tier 2 Ferenc Puskas Franz Beckenbauer Nandor Hidegkuti Valentino Mazzola Michel platini Lev Yashin Gaetano Scirea Facchetti Tier 3 Zinedine Zidane Gianni Rivera Eusebio Bobby Charlton George Best Marco Van basten Buffon Gerd Müller Lothar Matthäus Ruud gullit Peter schmeichel Xavi Hernandez Sandro kocsis Franco Baresi Maldini Tier 4 Arjen Robben Zoltán Czibor Roberto Baggio Raymond Kopa Frank Rijkaard Stanley Matthews KHR Micheal laudrup Bobby Moore Gheorghe Hagi Dennis bergkamp Dejan savecevic Jozef bozsik Dragan Dzajic Luís Figo Luís Suarez Hristo Stoichkov Thierry Henry Thuram Tier 5 Rob resenbrink Kenny dalglish Andrés Iniesta Eric cantona Allesandro nesta Frank Ribéry Kevin keegan Zlatan ibrahimovic Fabio Cannavaro Honourable mentions Eden Hazard (could make tier 5 soon with impact in the champions league) Del Piero (peak not long enough but surely had enough talent to be in tier 4) Andriy Shevchenko Manuel Neuer Pavel Nedved Jari Litmanen Paul scholes Francisco totti Cheillini Sir Tom Finney Alan shearer Rui Costa Littbarski Patrick viera Luca modric Jean Pier papin Ronald Koeman Stojkovic David de gea Gianni riva Sergio busquets Lato David ginola Matthias Sammer Mesut ozil Nemanja vidic Glenn Hoddle And others I can’t remember at the moment
Actually I made myself curious and I started watching a little myself but then continued watching! I didn't really have in mind to think of ratings when I started, but I'd say another good candidate for MOTM in that one was Alessandro Costacurta actually, so I thought that was worth mentioning too, even though he's a bit more obscure as far as best ever European players, or even defenders, go. So maybe it's not worth adding to the best games by best players thread for him, and re: Cannavaro I did notice again some moments that I was referring to near the start and particularly towards the end, but probably for example the game vs Germany in 2006 was better for him all in all.
You might find this match interesting (from 1996): https://footballia.net/matches/portugal-germany-friendly
Thanks for the tip - I wasn't even familiar with the goals I don't think! Who did you have down as MOTM (maybe one of the players in the mix feasibly for this thread - Figo, Rui Costa, Sammer, Klinsmann....?, or other players?). I won't make promises to watch at the moment (just like maybe leadleader won't watch England-Italy and that's no problem as it was just a 'tip' in that case too) but will let you know if and when I see some/all of it - maybe I like to be in control of my choices if you know what I mean but sometimes they can be a bit random like indeed finishing re-watching that England-Italy one (after the two Italian CB's I mentioned, the next players I'd pick out from that could be these, including actually the other Italian CB too even if Ferrara didn't seem in his absolute best form/shape in all respects - he also contributed defensively very effectively/efficiently at least.... - Zola/Ince/Albertini/Campbell/Ferrara/McManaman/Maldini/Beckham approximately in that order; so given that ultimately personally I'd rate Shearer and also peak Le Tissier over midfielders Albertini/Ince, it shows perhaps that they didn't have great games or much joy against that defence, but I think Le Tissier and also I feel Shearer to an extent were past their very best to be fair, especially mobility wise which as you have said before Puck can have a knock-on effect in general). If I would be giving Costacurta the MOTM, his general assured positional play would be a factor but the assist for Zola's goal would weigh heavily just like getting back on the goal line in a 'key moment' at the other end of the pitch....although actually the same end literally speaking lol as it was 2nd half and the Zola goal 1st half. If Cannavaro then I guess the cumulative contributions with tackles and interceptions etc, especially towards the end.
I would honestly rank Baresi above guys like Beckenbauer, Maldini, Cannavaro etc. Dude was a joy to watch
He’s actually underrated by the modern generation due to that Ballon d’Or win. He did deserve it to be honest.
True. It's not like anyone else deserved it. The guy who was EPL top-scorer, voted EPL best player, and instrumental to his teams reaching both the UCL and World Cup final? That guy? That guy can eff off, barely even worthy of cleaning Cannavaro's boots in 2006.
Henry wasn’t voted pfa winner in 2005/06 that was Steven gerrard(great premier league season and scored a World class 90th minute winning goal) and I also dispute your claim he was instrumental to France reaching the 2006 World Cup final Henry scored 3 goals which included 2 against South Korea and Togo Only one in the knockout stage against Brazil which was well assisted by a zidane set piece (Henry could not miss) I was not impressed by any of his ko World Cup performances even though he looked dangerous at moments in the final I agree he was absolutely instrumental in Arsenal’s 05/06 champions league final run but bad luck for him Ronaldinho had a better champions league campaign Henry had a solid case in 2003(assist king and great confed cup performance) and arguably even stronger in 2004( standout player on invincible team) 2006 could’ve been Ronaldinho but He flopped hard in the World Cup and was extremely unimpressive in the first half of 06/07 Cannavaro won in a year nobody dominated (like Owen 2001 many players like rivaldo,Raul,zidane we’re having an off season)