Pele had 7 Goals in KO stages in World Cups, 3 in Finals and 3 in Semis and he didn't played 2 complete WC's in his peak (62 and 66) by injury. And even if I agree that Brazil is the best NT in all history, there are probably some NT with better records like Spain in 08-12 (I think they had I can be wrong here). Btw, FIFA WORLD CUP + QUAILIFIERS + COPA AMERICA Pelé, 26 games, 26 goals + 14 assists = 1.53 per game Messi, 85 games, 35 goals + 26 assists = 0.72 per game Maradona, 41 games, 15 goals + 13 assists = 0.68 per game First conclusion: Pele generated more goals than the sum of Maradona and Messi. Pelé generated 40 goals out of 76 that Brazil made = 53% influence Maradona generated 28 goals out of 58 that Argentina made = 48% influence Messi generated 61 goals out of 150 that Argentina made = 41% influence Second conclusion: Pelé was more influential in Brazil than Maradona and Messi for Argentina.
Pele wasn't scoring tap ins. He scored goals in all sorts of manners. So to place his success on the back of his teammates is an outrageously absurd comment.
There is nothing for me to understand here It is a myth that a player cannot shine playing next to a prime Messi Samuel Eto’o did it in 2009 Xavi also did it in 2009 Neymar outperformed Messi in most facets of the game in 2016/17(except finishing where he was poor) Suárez was top scorer with 40 league goals Playing with a all time legend isn’t an excuse for being so ineffective,inconsistent,indecisive and largely anonymous for large spells If iniesta is a goat midfielder why was he reduced to a useless role in the MSN era Xavi is the player who dictates the rhythm of matches,controls the midfield and makes sure Barcelona worked like a fine oiled machine Iniesta is a luxury player and he when he played a more offensive role in 10/11 he never looked to be as effective in playmaking as de bruynne or ozil (for Madrid). You are just repeating myths you heard in the media (Xavi/iniesta being the most important in Spain’s golden age) Iniesta was outperformed by Xavi/Torres in Euro 2008 Alonso,Ramos David villa,Xavi in WC 2010 And in the final of Euro 2012 not even the 4th best player in the final against Italy https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....2/jul/01/euro-2012-spain-italy-player-ratings Xavi’s last great world class season was 2011/12 That is the reason Spain stopped being dominant after Euro 2012 and if Iniesta was so integral to Spain’s dominance then explain what happened to him in Euro 2016 and WC 2018?
No,all of Pelés goals were 40 yard belters,solo goals where he dribbled a minimum of 5 players and acrobatic finishes from impossible angles
and if Toninho had born in Uruguay he could have easily 70+ caps too. If he didn't have space playing in Brazil of that time, that doesn't say nothing about his quality as a player.
Obviously not. But a blind man can see the versatility he possessed in scoring goals of all manners. It's amazing that a CR7 fan doesn't see that. If you want a team making a player look great, what Madrid did for CR7 in the past two CL campaigns is a great example.
You can only see goal compilations of him scoring against teams nobody knows spread across 15-20 years This doesn’t prove he never scored tap ins.i could show you similar compilations of Ronaldo scoring 100+ world class goals Brazil 62 averaged 3 goals per game with out him And less than 3 goals per match with him in 70 Vava(another overrated Brazilian legend imo)scored at the same rate as Pele in world cups Nicholas bendtnar would command a respectable goal tally for Santos or Brazil during this period I’m pretty sure of it
According Whoscored, Real Madrid's 09-15 was no less team than 16-18 Madrid and let alone Atletico de Madrid in La Liga. La Liga: 2009/2010 Barcelona 7.3 Real Madrid 7.27 3º Valencia 6.97 2010/2011 Barcelona 7.21 Real Madrid 7.2 3º Valencia 6.97 2011/2012 Barcelona 7.25 Real Madrid 7.19 3º Malaga 6.96 2012/2013 Barcelona 7.2 Real Madrid 7.09 3º Atletico 6.96 2013/2014 Real Madrid 7.21 Barcelona 7.18 3º Atletico 7.05 2014/2015 Barcelona 7.28 Real Madrid 7.24 3º Atletico 7.01 2015/2016 Real Madrid 7.25 Barcelona 7.23 3º Atletico 7.09 2016/2017 Barcelona 7.19 Real Madrid 7.14 3º Atletico 7.02 2017/2018 Barcelona 7.14 Real Madrid 7.09 3º Atletico 6.97 Real Madrid in the time of Cristiano Ronaldo has always been a superb team with many great players in their peaks like Ozil, Guti, Di Maria, Xabi Alonso, Marcelo, Higuain, even Benzema in some seasons, Ramos, Modric, Bale, Kroos, Isco... this support certainly provided the necessary basis for all of Cristiano Ronaldo's speculative shots.
Some of Pele's greatest goals came against big teams. What you're writing is utter nonsense. Brazil 62 would have most likely won the WC easier with him. The fact they won without him doesn't discredit his greatness as a player and it's one of the most silly arguments used around.
Pure speculation like a lot of what you claim No source mentioned flipping Toninho as one of the best CF in the 1960s.btw who would’ve kept him out of WC 66 Who was so special in his position that would also keep Suárez on the bench Face it Toninho came out of nowhere was according to fans at the time a poacher with basic technique(maybe a 1960s Inzaghi ) and directly replaced peles prime goal output and he did it not once but TWICE http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1105 “...Toninho rivaled with Pelé in number of goals when both were together at Santos Futebol Clube. Toninho even managed to surpass "The King" sometimes in goalscoring records to the point of journalists and fans would ask themselves who would score more goals that season”
Can you fathom the fact that Brazil 62 scored 12 goals in 4 matches after Pele was injured? How much easier should it of been,maybe they could’ve scored 20 goals in 4 matches So Pele could’ve stat padded his World Cup statistics to make his fanboys even happier lol some of ronaldos greatest goals came against the best teams he faced aswell (Juventus,Atletico Madrid,Barcelona,) Did this prove he didn’t score tapins @celito your not making a point or maybe I’m just not getting whatever your attempting to convey to me
I'm shitting for the sources, before either you played in the World Cup (and it was difficult for Brazil according to you the best NT of all time) or was disqualified by the European Media or the rest of the world simply for lack of knowledge, it had no advanced metrics or impact measurement on those sources. And as I spoke he had 280 goals in 373 in official games for Santos playing as Centro-Avante. In São Paulo without dividing the goals with Pele or other Santos player he had 85 goals in 170 games, so remains to know how many of his goals in Santos was created by Pele though. Btw, Toninho had great quality too, look at his pass (2:37): and Pele different than Cristiano could play very well as playmaker, for his technique and also for his more oriented team-player mind. Pele wasn't selfish like the Portuguese horse:
I have to agree with you, it's a very low IQ argument. As if it is was Pelé's fault... for playing in the national team and the most dominant nation in all football history.
WTF ... I didn't say he didn't score tap ins, what I meant is he wasn't only scoring tap ins, which is a good measure of a team making a striker look good. Many of his goals, on video, are of high difficulty starting with the WC in 58 including the final.
Guti in his peak in 2009/10 I think you are on a hallucinogenic drug or completely unaware of what your talking about Great players play with great teammates (most of Pelés Santos teammates during his prime were capped by the NT) R9 played with many ballon dor candidates and winners for the NT and won a lot When the playing field was levelled at club level he could only win 1 league title and 0 champions league from 95-07 Most of Eusébio’s Benfica teammates were capped by the NT for Portugal Same as Puskás(Kocsis,Czibor,Bozsik played with him at club and NT level ) Ronaldo isn’t unique In playing with world class teammates Again for the one millionth time how can you prove Pele didn’t take speculative shots during his career (You cannot prove he was or wasn’t a volume scorer so please be quiet) Ronaldo scored 40+ goals as a WF for a team that barely scored over 100 goals (108 to be specific) Add in his assists and he was directly involved in over 50% of the goals scored by a double winning team (2007/08) You have also failed to explain the correlation between Ronaldo taking speculative shots and Real Madrid winning the league 2 times in 9 seasons Firstly he competed for a long time against arguably the greatest club side in football history Secondly he lost the league in 2009/10 by 2 points 2014/15 by 2 points 2013/14 by 3 points (was joint 2nd with Barcelona) We are talking such fine margins here that it is ridiculous to suggest that he was such a detriment to his teams build up play Ronaldo has always been either one of or Madrid’s main dribbling threat Most assists over a 9 year span Always finished the season with a high percentage of key passes Scored the most goals(by a light year) To suggest Real Madrid did not win many more leagues solely because of Ronaldos speculative shots is the most erroneous thing I’ve ever heard No mention of how their defence always got exposed by big teams previous to 2014 Or how benzema was inept at finishing clear chances in half the seasons he’s been at Madrid How does the faliure of a team of 11 players get placed at the feet of one In seasons where Madrid has been successful Ronaldo has always been the leading performer with rare exceptions such as La Liga 16/17 and even then he was such a crap and poor player...but still scored 25 league goals Or the champions league 2015/16 were he was a total non factor in games leading up to the final...but still scored a shut tonne of goals and singlehandedly brought Real Madrid into the semis Wolfsburg is average okay I can accept that and he did nothing in the first leg I can also accept that But why did none of his teammates pick up the reigns in that match(bale/benzema ) Ronaldo played his part and has to be given credit(and when he fails criticised)
I don’t think there are any players barring maybe 2(Messi in the professional scrutinised era and Pele in the questionable and largely unfilmed era) that could put together a better highlight reel @celito @ko242 @Tropeiro this is all fun of course but i sincerely hope you don’t think there is any CF in history who had a similar skillset(comparing to a striker is ridiculous) Not many players over the past 50-60 years reached this level and barely 5 are actually recorded
That we live in a more analyzed era doesn't mean that we live in a more competitive era, for me the national leagues that we have today with billionaire teams playing against teams with little budget* and where the main stars are protected and bumped on daily basis, that is really very questionable imo. Interesting link: * https://www.esdfanalysis.com/player-analysis/evolution-football-effected-messi-ronaldo/ Santos vs Barcelona comparation shows it clear: The “Santista” team had a 1.81 points per game average. Taking in comparison the last five editions of the Brazilian League, with that average, Santos without Pelé would have about 68 points and would be: 5th in 2014; 2nd in 2013; 4th in 2012 and 3rd in 2011 and 2010 The catalan team has had a 2.02 points per game average. Taking in comparison the last five editions of the Brazilian league, with that average, Barcelona (2004-2015) without Messi would have about 76 points and they would be champions in 3 of the last 5 years: 2nd in 2014; tied at 1st place with o Cruzeiro in 2013; 2nd in 2012; and 1st in 2010 e 2011. and leave out Flamengo of this history that without Zico probably wouldn't even won a single Rio State league. _______________________________________________________________ C'mon let's not deny here that Cristiano Ronaldo or Messi had a luxury team to put out all their stats and potentialities and all the cameras to show it for the world in few minutes.
It comes to no surprise. You look for example at the current goalscoring leaders of Serie A right now and the top scorer has like 9 goals in 7 matches. A legendary forward like Elkjear in the 1980s never scored more than 9 goals in a full season. Few foreigners cracked the 10+ goal mark in his era and now anyone that’s not a world star does it. It just goes to show how the standards have changed.
you are so far in denial, you can`t even acknowledge how true the questions i asked you were. there was a reason Neymar moved away from Barcelona to PSG. and it wasn`t because he wanted better competition in France. you know why. you have no credibility. the common denominator in spains victories from 08-12 is inesta, xavi, and busquets. how ignorant and childish can you be to deny that torres, and david villa were more instrumental to spains success, when neither played consistently in all 3 tournaments that Spain won from 08-12. How ignorant can you be, and childish, to ignore the fact that iniesta was a regular starter from 08-12 for barcelona in arguably the greatest team ever. this is no longer about you acknowledging facts. this is about you not wanting to admit that you are wrong. and you can`t admit the fact, that a player like iniesta is of far more value than other players who emotionally stimulte you.
It was because in parts he was getting most of the balls... xG Suarez 35.83 Goals Actual Goals 40 xG Messi 27,10 Goals Actual Goals 26 xG Neymar 28.05Goals Actual Goals 24 https://understat.com/league/La_liga/2015 On the other hand Benzema and Bale were the most efficient finishiers of Real Madrid that season and still Cristiano Ronaldo was getting most of the balls: xG Cristiano Ronaldo 35.59 Goals Actual Goals 35 xG Benzema 20.73 Goals Actual Goals 24 xG Bale 10.66 Goals Actual Goals 19 I'm not saying that Real Madrid wasn't beating Barcelona only by the questionable shots from the Portuguese and his bad decisions, but because he simply, most of the time, didn't reach the level of Messi (and maybe like even Neymar or others), being clutch or decisive in his role. Messi en el Classico: Games played 38 Won 17 Drawn 9 Lost 12 Cristiano en el Classico: Games played 30 Won 8 Drawn 8 Lost 14 The difference is not that big, right? But let's take a closer look: Messi Games 38 Goals 26 Shots 134 Shot conversion 19.4% Cristiano Ronaldo Games 30 Goals 18 Shots 129 Shot conversion 14% Now, what about creation: Messi Games 38 Assists 14 Chances created 68 Cristiano Ronaldo Games: 30 Assists: 1 Chances Created: 15 So according to this link: https://www.goal.com/en/news/ronald...he-best-stats-goals/pl0j1he59li01ik32p8d3sp1b despite Real Madrid not having had such a negative record against Barcelona (they had, but not so much), Cristiano Ronaldo was shooting proportionately more, making proportionally less goals (0.68 Messi x 0.6 Ronaldo) and especially creating much less than Messi (1,79 Chances Created by Messi x 0,5 for Ronaldo). There goes that analysis of the Leadleader on the last page. 2016/2017 is a example when Messi was inspired and having a volume of shots similar to Cristiano Ronaldo, that was the result: Not that Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't a good finisher at his shooting peak (2007-2014), he was (not at Messi's or Suarez level though, except for 2009/2010 imo)... the problem is that his decisions in the game and his positioning didn't allow him to draw the best of his potential, which is to be a player near the goal opponent, using his superb athleticism and great off the ball movement to cut defenders, create chances and shot inside of the box area.... like he did in 2014/2015 his most efficient season.... and maybe as a surprise element the shot outside of the box, but of course not as much as he actually did. https://statsbomb.com/2014/02/shot-charts-comparing-5-of-the-worlds-best/ Imagine that Cristiano Ronaldo of 2009/2010 who was a better finisher, dribbler and creator of chances playing in the position as he played in 2014/2015 and now, and he had a very dominant team for such... he would have been certainly much more effective than he really was. More or less what Maurizio Sarri is doing with Hazard today in a not so dominant team as Chelsea in the Premier, only positioning him closer to the goal and he has already 7 goals in 8 matches in the Premier League, much higher average than in his previous seasons and Hazard different than Ronaldo is more a team-player that could create clear chances (and he is very probably better than Ronaldo at create chances too) for others with no ego problems. http://www.espn.com/soccer/club/che...in-new-wide-forward-role-under-maurizio-sarri
I would agree on this one. Pele did score a large variation of goals. Dude was prolific in the air, both feet, could score a bicycle and some dribbling goals. In terms of scoring CR7 is pretty much as good as it gets. Doesn't get much better. I would put Messi and Pele of course on that level. Eusebio was an incredible shooter as well but he was not the dribbler that CR7 in some of CR7s goals, from what I have seen. In terms of efficiency, Eusebio was probably more efficient but I think CR7 has more versatility.
Romario had 14 assists in season 93/94 alone. Not bad for a centre forward known to run less than the referee. Stats for these assists were posted in the Ro vs Ro thread many years ago, where you can see posted videos showing all of his assists. We counted them one by one whilst providing references to the matches. Even discussed border line cases. But 14 were clear cut assists. But this is long ago and memory has waned. This tally does not even include pre-assist which I remember @leadleader went to great length taking the effort at watching matches to sum them up. An exercise I recommend especially you to practice for the sake of objectivity. It proves that you are clearly following the stereotypical myth about him being an in-the-box only limited poacher and it proves you never saw Romario's full matches to know he was more than just a box player. Only people who had limited exposure of his game will follow these popular stereotypes like you do. Romario was very gifted at setting up others to score clutch goals. He had vision and made many great passes (long and short) that were very effective. He always played the ball back to his team mates. Only shot for goal when he saw opportunity. He was very involving in his game. And he could play deep and could do midfield runs like any other great dribbler. Yet, he was never in the class of Valderrama or Bergkamp as a passer, but we should not expect that from a centre forward anyway, yet he was still very effective at passing nevertheless. He was also efetive with header passes. In any case, neither was R9 a great passer nor a good playmaker. And to be honest, I dont regard CR7 to be a great passer either nor a great playmaker. Valderrama and Baggio were more complete playmakers and passers than CR7 ever was. Why not just compare La Liga vs La Liga stats and UCL vs UCL instead of mixing up goals across different competitions who are at different levels, like you are clearly doing here? Apple vs Oranges. CR7 La Liga 09/10, 26 goals + 29 caps = 0.9 (dunno about PK goals) R9 La Liga 96/97 = 34 goals + 37 caps = 0.9 (scored a handful of PK goals) Romario La Liga 93/94 = 30 goals + 33 caps = 0.9 (Not one single PK goal) Performances here were at the same level more or less in La Liga. UCL competition? Romario scored 2 goals in 10 matches in UCL 93/94. You would say this is poor, I agree! But dont forget this was a WC year and UCL was not as important as the WC back in those days. And I have watched all of the UCL 93/94 matches in full and if my memory doesn't betray me I think he had 6 assists in UCL 93/94. So he did good in half of UCL 93/94 season. Still below his own standards. Having said that, R9, apart from a few great matches like vs ManUnited 03, never gave his best either in UCL competition. Romario at least won UCL top scorer twice (89/90) and (92/93) and score 20 goals in UCL between 1988 - 1995. R9 never won UCL top scorer title and never came close to score that many whilst staying active for twice the duration of Romario in Europe. Also bare in mind that different eras had different conditions of the game. La Liga of the early 90's was a different ball game than that of late 90's late alone 2009/20 Remember how @leadleader once showed you how the average scoring stats for strikers in Italian Serie A and La Liga differed between 80s to late 90s? Scoring 30 goals in La Liga back in early 90s was considered a great feat. I am surprised and amused to see you concede an old hard line argument of yours when I see you admit R9 scored wonder goals against sub par teams in his career best single season. A years ago you wouldn't give up an inch of ground on this debate. What happened all of a sudden? Now since you are in an honest mood here why not extend your courtesy and include the rest of 96/97 season to the aforementioned facts, e.g. Real Madrid won the title and when R9 met Madrid (Home and Away) he did not produce his best? First, Romario vs Real Sociedad was spectacular but it was not Romario's best performance that season. His best performance was vs Atletico Madrid (home match/2nd leg). But his most remembered and most revered performance (according to both fans of Barca and Madrid) was his, oddly enough, less entertaining, performance in El Clasico match vs Real Madird (5-0) . Second, to downplay his performance vs Real Madrid like you do here (overrated?) tells a lot about how extremely biased you are against him, you are a hard zealous religious fanatic, wasting your time hating a player who does not even know you exist. All pundits and football professionals consider his vs Real Madrid performance as a great feat. Barca fans will never forget what Romario did against Real Madrid. And that bothers you so much that you have to take a dig at him every time you have the chance to. You even went as far as to open a thread wholly dedicated to belittle him. Thank God it was shut down fast by a moderator and did not make it to a second page. Your dislike for Romario, Ronaldinho and Messi is unmatched to any I have seen so far on bigsoccer. What is the gain? It makes no sense I might not be CR7 fan, but I still watch him and dont belittle him unfairly like you do with Romario, Ronaldinho, Messi. Enjoy each player for what they are mate. football is just a game mate. Just a game.
I agree Ko how are you mate. Long time. Good to see how this community (usual suspects) is still going round in circles with the same old stuff.
I do agree. Being in a more competitive team raises the bar for the individuals within the team. No player is bigger than the team. The individual has to live up to his team. If a team is considered to be a super team consisting of the best players available on the market in each position, that super team should be measured by how well the individuals respond to the higher standards set by such a team as a whole. The team level should elevate the individual level of each player within the team, and vice versa! Team dynamics is influenced by the collective, and vice versa. It is a collective effort. I never believed in the so called "one player carried his team on his shoulders". Even though there are rare occasions of leadership and inspiring heroism by individuals within a team, raising themselves above team mates, these are rare occasions, and in the end football is a team sport. “A Whole is Greater Than the Sum of Its Parts” ~ Aristotle