CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

Football is different today, players have a much cleaner game, almost free of violent fouls, all medical and nutritional monitoring (in Messi's case maybe even more) that they didn't have before.
Before it was Van Basten retiring, footballers playing with infiltrations and Pele being injured in World Cups (some says he no longer the same after that).

Messi has never had any serious injury either through effort or for some violent tackle and he is much more better physically than most players at his age.

Big players had it much more tough, hard before.

 

We finally agree on something kiddo...

 

The proper Maradona being a charismatic figure is known to has drugs instead of brain, but not too long time ago he said to Ronaldo: "I have to say that if it wasn't for the injuries, you would have been the biggest in history. No doubt and I'm going over many great players. ...And besides, he's a great person ".





Just out of curiosity, Maradona considers himself the best of all time: https://www.lanacion.com.ar/1558101...imo-pero-el-mejor-de-todos-los-tiempos-soy-yo

 

Ronaldinho was consistently decisive in La Liga but he never cared about stat-padding be that in terms of goals or assists, which he easily could've done.

The list below is the outcome of how the numbers would look like when you entirely eliminate the goals and assists that were scored in blow-out wins, that is, wins where the clubs that relate to the specific players win by a difference of 3 or more goals. In simpler terms: the data below only includes statistics that were scored in all games - be that wins, defeats, or draws - all the games that were not relative blow-out wins.

22 overall / 17 open play goals / 4 assists / 1 penalty goal / 0 free kick goals / 28 games --- Ronaldo Nazario 1996/97.

21 overall / 16 open play goals / 5 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 23 games --- Romario 1993/94.

21 overall / 9 open play goals / 8 assists / 4 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 18 games --- Ronaldo 2014/15.

21 overall / 16 open play goals / 1 assist / 4 penalty kicks / 0 free kick goals / 30 games --- Diego Costa 2013/14.

20 overall / 10 open play goals / 5 assists / 3 penalty goals / 2 free kick goals / 20 games --- Ronaldo 2013/14.

20 overall / 3 open play goals / 10 assists / 6 penalty goals / 1 free kick goal / 23 games --- Ronaldinho 2005/06.

20 overall / 15 open play goals / 5 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 24 games --- Higuain 2009/10.

19 overall / 11 open play goals / 7 assists / 1 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 23 games --- Luis Suarez 2017/18.

18 overall / 10 open play goals / 7 assists / 0 penalty goals / 1 free kick goals / 22 games --- Luis Suarez 2013/14.

18 overall / 9 open play goals / 4 assists / 3 penalty goals / 2 free kick goals / 24 games --- Ronaldo 2012/13.

17 overall / 10 open play goals / 4 assists / 2 penalty goals / 1 free kick goals / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2009/10.

17 overall / 13 open play goals / 4 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 21 games --- Luis Suarez 2015/16.

17 overall / 11 open play goals / 3 assists / 3 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 23 games --- Ronaldo 2015/16.

17 overall / 8 open play goals / 4 assists / 2 penalty goals / 3 free kick goals / 23 games --- Ronaldo 2010/11.

16 overall / 10 open play goals / 4 assists * 1 out of the 4 assists for himself * / 3 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 18 games --- Ronaldo 2011/12.

14 overall / 7 open play goals / 3 assists / 4 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2016/17.

12 overall / 4 open play goals / 8 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 17 games --- Luis Suarez 2014/15.

12 overall / 11 open play goals / 1 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2017/18.

10 overall / 7 open play goals / 3 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 19 games --- Luis Suarez 2016/17.

There are many more players - some very famous, some underrated - that deserve to be included, but I currently just don't have the time to make it a more comprehensive list, albeit the end result of a more expansive list would likely be more or less identical, that is, Ronaldo invariably becomes slightly less efficient than Romario 1993/94, despite playing for more stacked clubs than Romario, despite taking considerably more shots than Romario (especially those highly speculative long shots that were Ronaldo's signature in the 2009-13 years, compared to Romario who rarely tried to shot from distance), despite taking all the free kicks, despite taking all the penalty kicks, etc. Not to mention the fact that players as (considering the context) 'ordinary' as Diego Costa and Gonzalo Higuain have Ronaldo-like open play statistics, in fact, better open play figures than a significant portion of Ronaldo's entire La Liga career.

Which already brings me to what I believe is the crux of the Ronaldinho v Cristiano debate, that is, in the specific context that is this thread that was created by @carlito86 of all of posters. The poster known as @carlito86 loves Maradona with what appears to be religious awe, so Carlito of all people in this forum should - if he were actually consistent and unbiased with those rather abstract skills that he values when Maradona is the author - Carlito of all people should have a special comprehension and appreciation for what statistics are in the context that is Maradona's club form, especially in the Serie A and the UEFA Cup, where Maradona's statistical impact was arguably inflated by a bunch of free kicks and penalty kicks which is why Maradona's very few open play goals don't look as bad as they'd look if Maradona didn't have those penalty kicks and free kicks, etc.

Why is @carlito86 such a religious fanatic when he pontificates about Maradona's exploits in Europe, when Maradona's club record in Europe is remarkably similar to that of Ronaldinho, except for the fact that Maradona was not consistently replicating his best form against well oiled clubs that had all-time-caliber defensive ability in the form of John Terry (in his prime), Ricardo Carvalho (in his prime), Claude Makelele (still capable), Andrea Pirlo (in his prime), Gennaro Gattuso (in his prime), Paolo Maldini (still capable), Alessandro Nesta (still capable), etcetera?

Ronaldinho scored 6 penalty kicks, but a significant portion of those penalty kicks were directly assisted or pre-assisted by a 'maestro' pass by Ronaldinho himself, which then adds to those penalty kicks that Ronaldinho himself wins by virtue of getting fouled inside of the box. Moreover, Ronaldinho scored 10 assists in 23 competitive games, but it could've easily been 18 assists for Ronaldinho if any analyst would care to make an accurate count of just how many clear-cut chances were wasted by Henrik Larsson alone. And finally, Ronaldinho scored only 3 open play goals in 23 games, because he sucks at open play goals, or simply because he couldn't care less about scoring goals in routine league games where his passing ability (which itself was invariably maximized by his GOAT level ball retention ability) was already statistically the most decisive factor in the outcome of many of those league games?

If that was Maradona's achievement, @carlito86 wouldn't ever shut up about how consistently great he was against great defensive clubs, great clubs that were objectively excellent in the dark arts, very much unlike England 1986 (competitive, but not great), Belgium 1986 (competitive, but again not great), and Germany 1986 (competitive, but if any serious analyst made a list of the best German sides of all time, Germany 1986 probably wouldn't be mentioned as one of the better sides), etc. But of course, Ronaldinho doesn't have a World Cup like Maradona's 1986, and that appears to be the difference between loving or hating Ronaldinho, that is, from Carlito's point of view... because other than that one thing, Ronaldinho 2005/06 is arguably the player who is most similar to Maradona i.e. not the most devastating dribbler in the world, but so special at the art of ball retention, and so special at the art of passing, that more often than not there's just no way of stopping them.

In conclusion: Cristiano Ronaldo never was as constant as Ronaldinho was in 2005/06, because Ronaldo never was as great a player as Ronaldinho was in his 2005/06 form. Passing and ball retention when done to the GOAT standard of Ronaldinho/Maradona, is almost impossible to defend, which becomes all the more evident in the difficult games against the best defenders and/or against the best defensive teams. On the other hand, what Cristiano Ronaldo does, a lot of it fundamentally and objectively is stat-padding, which is why he never has been a constant player, even in 2017 - unquestionably his most constant year at the Champions League but also arguably his most overrated year in terms of La Liga form - even in 2017 Ronaldo was lucky that Atletico Madrid had declined compared to the surrounding years, which then added to the referee job against Bayern Munich, etc. Cristiano Ronaldo is a player with extraordinary longevity (and even this aspect of his legend is arguably inflated by the super-club disparity that defined the era), but his constancy as a player has never been unique nor special (and this aspect of his legend unequivocally is hidden in plain sight, minimized in plain sight, by his devastating statistics in blow-out wins i.e. the stat-padding that largely defines his 'killer mentality with no off button' playing style).

 

^ @leadleader

Great data! What took me by surprise is the sheer number of huge blowouts by 3+ goals that Madrid and Barcelona are winning. These samples average at around 22 matches meaning that most of the rest are blowouts wins since these players don't miss many matches. I knew that the big clubs really dominate but this is more than I expected.

Top players will often score a hat trick in a 7-1 trashing of the last team on the table and that's worth three times more than a single goal in a 1-0 win over the best team in the world. That's not right.

 

lol. Is that the criteria of which we are rating players? I have nothing to say

 

Ok. Neymar was never close to Messi. Neymar got 7%. Messi got 41% and Ronaldo got 27%.

In 2010, Messi got only 22%!!! Xavi with 16% and iniesta with 17%!!!
Big difference!!!

And Neymar was the closest! During the days of 08-12 many thought iniesta and/or xavi were more important to barcas success than Messi. Since those two have left, no one on Barcelona has been so comparable with Messi

 

@carlito86 at the end of the day, I can agree with you that CR7 is as good as Ronaldinho in technique even though Ronaldinho and his aesthetics look better.

I only brought up iniesta and xavi because you said Zidane was somehow better or technically superior because he 'stimulates you'. If this is your argument then Ronaldinho is better technically than CR7. I don't believe for a second that Zidane has better technique or passing than xavi or iniesta. 2 players that were running the midfield on arguably the best teams in history on teams that revolved heavily on dominating possession. It just doesn't make sense.

In any case, my stance between Ronaldinho and CR7 as far as league games and big games are concerned, I'm on the same boat as @leadleader

I already said, if it was the case that CR7s league games against smaller teams could not be won consistently without him, then I would rate CR7 higher as far as the importance of prodution. But throughout CR7s career, especially at Madrid, they could consistently win without CR7 against the smaller teams. So at this point, I will judge Ronaldinho and CR7 on their ability to break down the most difficult defenses. And Ronaldinho wins in that category within a 2 yr period.

 

I was caught by surprise by a number of things that I didn't quite expected, for example, Ronaldo in the games that were not blow-out wins, he appears to literally fail to score almost 50% of his penalty kicks, so the list that I provided is actually worse than it looks, because almost every single time that Ronaldo has 3 penalty kicks, that means that Ronaldo actually took 6 penalty kicks but only managed to score half, so Ronaldo's conversion rate from penalty kicks is significantly inferior to Ronaldinho's, on top of the fact that Ronaldinho is considerably more involved in the direct creation and also the indirect creation of these penalty kicks.

It is in essence the same problem with the free kicks: for every 0 free kicks out of 20 something games by Ronaldo, it is an educated and a safe assumption to just assume that Ronaldo was a relatively atrocious free kick taker in those 20 something games, so Ronaldo not only scored 0 free kicks in 20 something games, but Ronaldo also monopolized the free kicks in such a way that when he didn't scored any free kicks in those 20 something league games, then in all probability the club itself didn't scored any free kicks... Another negative that you just don't get with many other prolific goal scorers.

Moreover, look at what happens to the (already unimpressive) statistics when and if you're willing to completely ignore penalty kicks.

13 overall / 10 open play goals / 4 assists / 0 free kick goals / 18 games
--- Ronaldo 2011/12

12 overall / 4 open play goals / 8 assists / 0 free kick goals / 17 games
--- Luis Suarez 2014/15.​

This is the Luis Suarez that was adapting to a new league, the Suarez that missed a bunch of league games, and the Suarez that consequently started slow in the league due to lacking match fitness after his lengthy suspension for having bitten Chiellini, and even with all those factors against him, Suarez still has an almost identical goal involvement as the - for many fans - the most devastating version of Cristiano Ronaldo ever.

Ronaldo 2011/12 is widely credited for having almost single-handedly elevated Real Madrid, but to believe that you'd have to believe that in the other 20 league games that were won by 3 goals or more... You'd have to believe that Ronaldo can do that 20 times in a league season, which would make no sense because then you'd have to explain how a player who can do that for 20 out of 38 games then only wins 1 title out of 9 titles on the basis of actual statistical greatness (he was not statistically great in the 2017 league title, which is his only other league title), etc.

18 overall / 11 open play goals / 7 assists / 0 free kick goals / 23 games
--- Luis Suarez 2017/18.

15 overall / 9 open play goals / 4 assists / 2 free kick goals / 24 games
--- Ronaldo 2012/13.

The amazing Ronaldo 2012/13 has inferior goal involvement to a past-his-prime Luis Suarez...
​

 

Monopolizing free kicks is a given with Ronaldo. Still to cut the guy some slack, I don't know that there is/was a Madrid player who is better at those than he is. So the issue isn't really the monopolizing but not converting a higher percentage. The penalty conversion of close to 50% is pretty alarming. I'd be interested to know the circumstances of the misses. Because if his team is up 4-0 and he misses a penalty then the other team scores two goals late to make the final scoreline 4-2, it's really not a big deal. But if a penalty is missed at 0-0 or 0-1 or 1-1, basically match in doubt, and it finishes that way or worse and leads to lost points, then it's huge. Even if it's missed at a level score and his team ends up winning just barely, it's still kind of bad. It would be a lot of work but a detailed analysis of penalty shooting would have to look at the real-time score on the pitch as well as the subsequent flow and outcome of the game etc.

My personal opinion is that goal totals should be always broken down into open-play goals, free kicks, and penalties and that free kick attempts should also be tallied. How you want to interpret the data is up to each individual but it should be easily available on soccer databases. Kind of like how basketball separates points scored into field goals, 3pt field goals, and free throws. It paints a more complete picture of a player.

 

Punishing Romario for being more efficient, determinant and accomplished more things in his debut at Barcelona even being more 'specific' seems to very wrong imo.

To be honest, Cristiano Ronaldo would have been more efficient and effective if he had the same positioning of the last few years (it was a shame that he was already out of the his peak when it happened, except maybe for 2014-2015 and 2013-2014).

But at his peak Cristiano Ronaldo was an unnecessary and wasted player in the middle of the pitch, when Real Madrid had Ozil, Guti, proper injured Kaka, Modric, Kroos to build the plays (all of them clearly better playmakers than Ronaldo). In this case he could have concentrated in create his shots, used his creativity and plays closer to the big area like he did in 2014/2015 - and at some extent in 2013/2014 - than be always returning to help the midfielders, running the entire pitch like a horse and shooting more than half the time outside of the box area with very low goal conversion.

When Ronaldo stopped running to the midfield, disrupting unnecessarily the dynamics of the team, especially against Leganese's and Osasuna's that RM would win the game anyway, Real Madrid won 3 consecutive champions.

Ronaldo is a striker, not a creator. He simply doesn't have the quality that a creator needs. No surprise that in your data, Ronaldo was more efficient in 2013/2014 and in 2014/2015 than in his physical peak at Real Madrid.


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Now the next step is know how many shoots per game Ronaldo made to reach these marks.

In UCL 2015/2016 for example he gave 8.1 shots per game!!! and only 3.3 on target.
Normal people just think he made 16 goals and Real Madrid was the champions, so he is the man, and they just forget the rest.

 

Also according the official site of Premier League you can see that Ronaldo always had been a ambitious shooter:

https://www.premierleague.com/players/2522/Cristiano-Ronaldo/stats?co=1&se=15

14 NPK Goals, 8 assists in 34 Games, 36% shooting accuracy 2006/2007

27 NPK Goals, 6 assits in 34 Games, 44% shooting accuracy 2007/2008

14 NPK Goals, 6 assists in 33 Games, 31% shooting accuracy 2008/2009

Compare with Salah

https://www.premierleague.com/players/5178/Mohamed-Salah/stats?co=1&se=79

31 NPK, 10 assists in 36 Games, 47% of shooting accuracy 2017/2018

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Cristiano Ronaldo built his myth playing in dominant teams (Real Madrid had 3 consecutive champions without the presence of the 'creative' version of Cristiano Ronaldo) and in a less disputed league (La Liga), had he continued in Manchester and in the Premier (which is much more physical and demanding) and I would say he would not have come close to having his stats bumped like he did in Madrid.

Very notable club player of course, but legendary more by his consistency, athleticism, by made himself present and durability (and all the marketing) than his proper peak, dominance and efficiency.

Veridict: Overrated

 

Pele (Libertadores 1962) only played only one game of three final games vs Penarol for the title, the last one. Santos won the first game for 2 a 1, lost for Penarol for 3 a 2 and in the decisive game when Pele played and that was the result:



And just for the sake of conscience, Santos and Brazilian clubs gave the least of esteem to the Libertadores, touring in other continents gave much more money and prestige at that time. Santos has qualified several times for the Libertadores, played a few times only, declined many.

Real Madrid, who only won La Liga twice in 9 years in Ronaldo's time, only focused on the UCL since they were unable to be more consistent than Barcelona in the local league.
.
That's the final between Atletico de Madrid and Real Madrid in 2014:



RM just won thanks to the Capitán:

 

You are talking about Toninho Guerreiro, right? He had 280 Goals in 373 OFFICIAL Games between 1963 and 1969 for Santos, which is good, but not Pele's peak level playing as 10. http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2016/07/14/pele-10-formation/ and still at his peak Toninho Guerreiro made 85 Goals in 170 Matches in São Paulo, so it is more than obvious that he was being benefited by the services of Pele in his time and he was a Centroavante not a Ponta-de-Lança like Pelé.

Also Jairzinho scored more goals than Pele in 1970 and?

Pele still had a very fantastic cup in 1970 according France Football and had 6 assist + 4 goals in 6 matches.







For example, Luis Suarez also outscored Messi in 2015/2016? Is Cristiano Ronaldo better than Messi because of that?

But Pelé yes had more impact in Santos than Messi in Barcelona, what about Cristiano at Madrid?
http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-ii-club-performance/
let alone in their NT's: http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iii-national-team-performance/ or Finals: http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2016/06/27/pele-messi-finals/


The fact is Ronaldo was never outscored in his clubs because he was receiving most of the balls just like now in Juventus: https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/the...-goalless-juventus/1gu70exbyy3bl1mc6stvc08mdn

And that's even when Ronaldo sucks at Madrid:

Cristiano Ronaldo has the worst shot conversion rate in Europe's top five leagues this season with one goal from 55 attempts...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...tiano-Ronaldo-worst-shot-conversion-rate.html

 

You still don't get it. I don't know if you are capable of understanding such a concept.
I will try one more time...

When you play on arguably the greatest team of all time, you are held to a higher standard. For example a player who plays on Barcelona 08-12, expected to win 3-5 trophies in a year must play at a higher standard than a team with an expectation of 1 trophy a year.
Do you agree??

When you play with the greatest player(s) of all time, you have to raise your level of game in order to play consistently for the team. For example, Barcelona vs Man City or Arsenal.
Do you agree??

When you play with the greatest player of all time (arguably), you will not look as good than if you play with one of the best players in modern day. Example, Lionel Messi vs David Silva or Milito.
Do you agree??

When you play with arguably the greatest player of all time, your role on the team will be decreased compared to playing with one of the best modern day players. For example: Messi vs Aguero, Maicon, or Van Persie.
Do you agree??

So before you bring up players like Toure, Sneijder, and Fabregas just remember to think about these questions. And also remember that no player playing with Messi on the same team has been so close to outdoing Messi than Iniesta and Xavi. Also don't forget of the players you mentioned, Iniesta was the only player to win the best player in Europe in 2012.
Also don't forget that without Messi, iniesta and xavi were key players for arguably the best NT ever!! Arguably 2 of the 3 most important players in their 08-12 run.

So think about that for a second before you say anything else.

The more I debate with you @carlito86, I begin to assume that either you don't watch games or that you watch games with the same understanding as that of the typical YouTuber. Quoting people from Twitter because they made a quick check on Google. People who are so busy watching EPL and only take interest in watching Barcelona when they meet an English team in the EPL. People so simple minded in so unknowleagable about the game that brute strength, speed, goals are the only thing such people can take from the game of soccer. People who still don't understand the significance of Guardiola's system even after Man City smashed everyone in the league by almost 20 points last season, probably think it came down to luck and fortunate circumstances.

 

Now that you have spoken, I would probably have chosen Toninho Guerreiro for a super team of this era before Cristiano Ronaldo to run like a horse and losing plays.

To be honest, Eusebio was probably much better and efficient than Cristiano Ronaldo too. Today's players live for marketing and hype.