How relevant were Thierry Henry and Cristiano Ronaldo at 19 years of age?? Not even on the map so to speak, and certainly their creativity and intelligence began to show in their mid 20s, not in their teens. I mean compare 21 year old Cristiano Ronaldo at World Cup 2006, against 19 year old Mbappe at World Cup 2018... Mbappe is definitely more intelligent and far more selfless and far more effortless, despite being 2 years younger than Ronaldo was at WC 2006. In other words: Mbappe inserted himself into the tactics, very intelligently and with a lot of maturity for his age... Cristiano Ronaldo inserted the tactics into Ronaldo, not very intelligently for any age, maybe even not intelligently at all for any age, because it was mostly a case of the player being ridiculously blessed with the type of freakish athleticism that would allow him to bend the tactics to his athletic will, more than it was a case of Ronaldo's intelligence making him a presence in almost all areas of the game. I mean that's probably why Ronaldo became a better player because his age did not allowed him to collect amazing stats to the detriment of Real Madrid as a team... the fact that age forced him to insert himself into actual tactics, as opposed to inserting tactics into the greatest thing ever -- himself... I mean it should come as no surprise that better tactics yield better results compared to Ronaldo's Real Madrid career before 2016, that is, the part of Ronaldo's Real Madrid career where Ronaldo was the tactic and where the tactics were there to serve as a platform for the real tactic which was Ronaldo's statistical quest to rival Messi... My point being... The fact that Ronaldo had to wait for age to slow him down, to become a better player, is not a sign nor is it a symptom of great footballing intelligence... Instead I'd argue that it is a sign and a symptom of great-but-misguided talent inevitably taking the leading role in Ronaldo's career, after his body could no longer continue feeding his statistically-driven ego to the detriment of his club. Ronaldo shed - forcibly shed - his bad mentality for what always has been and always will be a team sport, which inadvertently allowed his talent to be of more prominence in those big games where he had so often gone missing in action, which is how he now competes against Messi. At any rate, I just don't think that that's an argument in favor of how intelligent Ronaldo allegedly is. I mean had he always been as intelligent as he seems to be with the benefit of revision, he wouldn't have required age forcing him into becoming the intelligent player that he is now credited to have always been in his own right. Cristiano Ronaldo 2007 - 2010 / Amazing athlete who wasn't exactly 'highly intelligent' given that his playing style was all about running at defenders and scoring goals and scoring assists. When confronted by difficult teams that he didn't knew (and had not gradually adjusted to) from the league, such as AC Milan 2006-07 or Barcelona 2008-09, Ronaldo had no noticeable intelligence and no noticeable creativity to mix up his usual game and ergo find a different answer to unlock those defences. The most impressive thing about Ronaldo was his ability to stay fit all season long, which was highly unusual for players who ran that much... but intelligence-wise it was nothing special in my view. I've certainly watched players who have adapted more quickly and more intelligently to different situations; Mbappe seems to be one such player already at 19 years of age. Cristiano Ronaldo 2011 - 2014 / Amazing athlete but he was a very one-dimensional dribbler who played for the stats that allowed him to compete against Messi, a playing style that arguably worked to the detriment of Real Madrid who would've done better as a team had Ronaldo not been obsessed with the statistics, that is, had Ronaldo actually played for the actual team as opposed to Ronaldo thinking that the better his personal statistics the better it would be for the club itself, which made no sense if you actually understood the amount of chances that were dying at Ronaldo's feet every time that he tried to score a ridiculously speculative goal. That's how you play if you play for a relegation club, that's not how you play when you play for a club that is stacked with creative talent in the midfield.
I think you misunderstood me and i aware of such changes of the transformations. I actually wanted to state such examples. But what we are explaining are players changing there game because they have gotten older and slowed down. What I'm talking about is a player changing the fundamentals of his game while he is in his prime. If a player like Mbappe doesn't play like R9 now, then why should we assume that he playable like R9 should he gain some weight. It's like assuming that Dembele would play like R9 were he too gain weight. At this point, they have established their game for so long, I would be surprised to see a player make such a change. R9 was R9 at 19 not 24, if you see my point. Probably one of the players that did change his game, was CR7. But I would call it less changing his entire game and more cutting the unnecessary things out.
I don't ever recall Michael Owen playing midfield tbh .. He was a pure goal scorer from his school days ... I never rated him as regards technique or creativity/ passing .
There was a big bustling forward called Ray Kennedy in the 70's played for Liverpool in their pomp. He also went back into midfield and developed into a marvellously creative passer
Kevin Keegan had him playing a different kind of role - dropping deeper - at Newcastle I remember, once it had been established he couldn't be the player he used to be. Maybe he had in mind a similar kind of role he himself played at Hamburg etc, I don't know.
Neymar has already a better resume in national team than Messi, the average level of his World Cup's despite the said and his injuries are better than the Argentine, was the leader of Brazil being champion in 2013 in the Confederations Cup, in the Olympic title of 2016 and was the best player in Brazil in the qualifiers for WC18 (in which Brazil finished first). He played and has played better than the Argentine with his NT.
No evidence that Cristiano made Real Madrid worse, at Manchester United he got everything he failed in the early years of Real Madrid, was he better at Manchester than his early years at Real? Not really. In fact, I want to see the same argument that Messi was bad for Argentina if Argentina won the WC22 with Messi out of his peak.
Realistically Luka Modric and Bale made Madrid relevant.Ronaldo did not honestly.and in this stage Ronaldo departure was also such blessing. The only problem Real had is we had no plan B.Entire game was revolving around Ronaldo.ENTIRE.Not cos we decided that but cos Ronaldo pretty much blackmailed the team into this kind of play
Obviously he doesn't mean it literally but his presence does influence a lot of things at the club. Hence, why we see players like Benzema and Bale playing better and with more freedom since Ronaldo has left. Ronaldo has a huge influence on the players and the coaches at Madrid and more often than not even the coaches have to cater to his demands on some level. The same goes with Messi at Barcelona which is a big reason that Neymar left. Messi's opinion and his demands are probably more influential to what the club does than the coach of the team. Pretty much the only person at Barcelona that can compete with Messi in terms of power and influence is the president. Even on Argentina we see Messi's influence. To the point that it could have been detrimental to the team if the rumors are true. I just wander, with all the lack of players that Argentina has how could Dybala not be in the starting line up in the WC. People talk about roles and his conflicting with Messi. But on a team as bad as Argentina they would be better off playing with 2 elite players in Messi and Dybala then the crap they showed in any of the WC games trying to cater to Messi
Not true at all. Messi was the best performer in copa America '15 and '16 and , alongside Robben , the best player in WC14. Statements like this are just one more proof of how Messi own standards are his biggest enemies in people minds.
That is exactly what Ronaldo did: he minimized the silly things and it came as no surprise that it was for the betterment of Real Madrid. But again... The only reason why Ronaldo reduced the silly aspects of his game, was because Ronaldo no longer had the physical presence to at least create the delusion that he is great enough that him repeatedly doing dumb shit is justifiable because of how great he appears to be. Passing the ball instead of unleashing another inefficient shot from a gazillion yards out, is not a sign of Ronaldo's game being a lot more intelligent at his grey age, it always was a sign of Ronaldo simply cutting down on the aspects of his game that were dumb and stupid and had never ever ever ever worked for any club that he played for. As of late I have been watching a lot of Manchester United games from 2004-05 and 2005-06, and it is curious how the stupid aspects of Ronaldo's game were typically ridiculed by the English narrators, to the point that Ronaldo noticeably cut down on those stupid habits in 2006-07 and I assume also in 2007-08, which were his best years with Man Utd. It was at Real Madrid that Ronaldo brought back the silly speculative shots that he tried and failed to do in his 2004-05 and 2005-06 days, and as was also the case at Man Utd, Ronaldo's best years with Real Madrid will be remembered as the years where Ronaldo was playing at his least speculative. "He has matured into a proper footballer." You hear that a lot when you watch Ronaldo in 2006-07 and 2007-08, and the only thing that Ronaldo actually needed to do in order to mature into a proper footballer, was simply to cut down on his insanely inefficient speculative shots from a gazillion yards out. Is intelligence required to understand that silly shots from a gazillion yards out are silly? I don't think intelligence is required for that...
How does a 19 year old Ronaldo and Thierry Henry get equated together in the same sentence A 19 year old Cristiano Ronaldo made team of the tournament in euro 2004 A 19 year old Cristiano Ronaldo was voted motm in the 2004 fa cup final.he put on perhaps the most devasting performance (at least from a dribbling perspective)in a English cup final in the 21st century If you ever needed proof Ronaldo was a unique talent you would refer to this game. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/3725063.stm Of course the above performance is not reflective of his entire 03/04 season or even his pre 2006 form but that’s not to say that on his day (before his prime) he was easily capable of being the best performing player on the pitch Mbappe has a bright feature and has scored a tonne of goals relative to his young age but he is not in the same class as a young cr7 when it comes to natural talent.he simply doesn’t possess that spark of genuis and isn’t at least by my estimation a technically gifted player His athleticism like Thierry Henry(or even moreso) is his defining attribute As I have said already he has scored a lot of goals but playing on superteams in a questionable league (arguably the weakest from the traditional top 5) Ronaldo being unable to unlock defensively compact sides with his dribbling is a criticism that can also be levelled at Messi Against Inter Milan in 2010 for example I can remember Ronaldo being a legitimate dribbling threat in 90% of the games he played vs big sides In 06/07 and 07/08 Barcelona home 2008 an Milan away 2007 are exceptions to the rule
Whether leadleader hates Ronaldo or not I don't know. But I think it has more to do from his perspective that people are overstating the greatness of ronaldo. i.g. CR7 winning 4 ballon d'ors in his down years compared to his earlier years. So he's trying to just put things in perspective. And it seems that with every year despite his overall play going downhill in what are already his lesser years, he still manages to be a top candidate for ballon d'or or WPOTY
Henry and Ronaldo were brought up by someone else in the conversation as a result of trying to predict Mbappes future. Actually it may be a legitimate point considering how people are talking about Mbappe at the moment. CR7 was more of a prospect, where Mbappes maturity leads people to think he is already there. And maturity is the difference. i don't think anyone is comparing the ability on the ball/technique of Mbappe with CR7. Side note: CR7 really had no natural talent. Pretty sure he just practiced the same skills over and over until he mastered them. I don't think he came out of his mothers womb with incredible ball technique. Just bringing it up because natural talent with ball skills bothers me. Back to the point. It's about maturity not technique. You obviously need top technique to be a top player but it does not need to be on CR7s level. Actually the funny thing about football is that you are better off having maturity and a better understanding of the game than having incredible technique with little understanding of the game. Hence, a player like Quaresma not being as good a player as Suarez despite Quaresma's superior technique. The English national coach Woodgate actually recently made a case that Rashford is ahead of Ronaldo at 19-20 when only comparing the ability of Rashford to convert the amount of touches on a ball into actual effective results. As a result, MBAPPE at 19 is considered higher than Ronaldo at 19. Doesn't mean he will be better but at the time of their ages it certainly does.
You gonna bang on the fact Mbappe scores goals in a weak league then you post a video of Ronaldo performing at the same age vs Millwall .... who were 10th place in England's 2nd division ?
As usual, you totally miss the obvious point... Neymar... the average level of his World Cup's despite the said and his injuries are better than the Argentine [Messi]... The above is complete lunacy and the only logical explanation is profound hate for all things Messi... Not only has Messi been better than Neymar at the World Cupo; Messi has been better with dysfunctional and difficult Argentina teams. Neymar - and I have absolutely nothing against him doing well at the World Cup - but he will need a very good World Cup 2022 to finish his career as a better World Cup legend than Messi. Just as Cristiano Ronaldo has more arguments than Messi in 2012. Too bad the Barça fans and Messi-boys created a parallel reality. Again: Total lunacy... Messi was scoring more goals than Ronaldo, completing more dribbling runs than Ronaldo, and also assisting more goals than Ronaldo... But somehow the poster above @Tropeiro has actually convinced himself that so-called "Messi boys" have created a parallel reality where scoring more goals, completing a lot more dribbling runs, and assisting more, is historically regarded as superior to what Ronaldo did in 2012. It is patently obvious that @Tropeiro has a deep rooted HATE against Messi. Sneijder 2010 has more arguments than Ribery 2013 in my opinion. Again: @Tropeiro is making the mistake of equating team titles to individual performance... He believes that Sneijder 2010 was somehow as good or better than Messi or Xavi... I mean Messi despite not winning the Champions League, was obviously a more devastating player than Sneijder; more goals, more dribbling runs, more assists (I assume although I don't know for a fact), more risk-taking, etc. Additionally, Xavi was great at every competition he played in, and he actually won the World Cup. How was Sneijder 2010 a lot better than Xavi 2010?? In fact considering how excellent Xavi was at the 2010 part of the 2010-11 season, how exactly was Sneijder 2010 clearly and decisively better than Xavi?? At any rate, @Tropeiro clearly believes that Sneijder 2010 was robbed by Messi, which again demonstrates that said poster has a profound hate for all things Messi. As for my own so-called 'hate' against Ronaldo: if anything I hate corruption, which clearly is what is inflating CR7 into a caricature. 1 -- Portugal won the Euro Final without Ronaldo (2016). 2 -- Real Madrid won the Copa del Rey Final vs. Barcelona - with Messi - but without Ronaldo playing for Madrid (2014). 3 -- Ronaldo was no more consequential goal-wise than Bale or Isco at the 2014 Champions League (2014). 4 -- Ronaldo scored 25 La Liga goals and Real Madrid won La Liga by 1 point (2017). 5 -- Ronaldo scored 26 La Liga goals and Real Madrid finished 14 points behind Barcelona (2018). 6 -- Ronaldo won the 2013 Ballon d'Or after flopping at the Champions League - where he was widely perceived to be the flop of the Semi Finals - and after not winning a single trophy at any point in 2013. I mean you can call that hate all you want, but I honestly cannot think of another player with that set of highly unique circumstances or outcomes working in his favor... Real Madrid was good enough to win a Copa del Rey Final vs. Barcelona with Messi, but without Ronaldo on the pitch. Real Madrid was good enough to win the 2014 Champions League even though Ronaldo scored only 1 meaningful goal in the KO stage. Portugal won the Euro Final without Ronaldo. Real Madrid can finish 14 points behind Barcelona or 1 point in front of Barcelona, and the difference in goals for Ronaldo is 25 goals when Real Madrid won La Liga by 1 point and 26 goals when Real Madrid finished 14 points behind Barcelona. I mean... It's just patently obvious that Ronaldo's influence and importance after 2013 has been overrated and continues to be overrated, in fact, it gets more overrated by the year. Whether or not I hate Ronaldo should take nothing away from the validity of my arguments. On the other hand, saying that Neymar already is a better World Cup player than Messi, is complete lunacy and it demonstrates that @Tropeiro absolutely hates Messi with a passion. Please do not put me in the same sentence nor in the same concept as a Messi hater who actually believes that Neymar is already a better World Cup player than Messi.
Just another case in point... A lot of hype because Ronaldo scored a tap in and a relatively easy - but not literally a tap in - second goal. And so Ronaldo has scored 2 goals after 28 shots, which is not good at all in my book, but I guess it merits Ballon d'Or hype when Ronaldo does it. Count it! That's league goal 4⃣0⃣0⃣ for @Cristiano in 517 matches:311 - Real Madrid84 - Manchester United3 - Sporting CP2 - JuventusWill he win a third consecutive #TheBest FIFA Men's Player Award at the #FIFAFootballAwards on 24 September? pic.twitter.com/wNWIPWhgbU— FIFA (@FIFAcom) September 16, 2018
Saw his individual highlights out of curiosity. What an absolute shit performance. Tons of missed passes and also missed 2 more gimmes and even a not so difficult header.
Haters will be haters but the fact remains Ronaldo has notched up his 400th career league goal which is a mind blowing achievement (nobody on this thread has even congratulated him for this ,in fact quite the opposite-just imagine it was messi in his place then you’d realise the double standards @ko242 why does it bother you so much that Ronaldo won 4 ballon dors during his perceived decline. Cr7 would’ve won the 2012 ballon dor against any player not named Messi in the past 30 years (this is a fact not an assumption) If the ballon dor remained a European only player award(the same format that allowed van basten,platini and rumminge to win multiple ballon dors when zico and Maradona were in their primes )then cRonaldo would have 10 ballon dors (this is also a fact not an assumption) Ronaldo put on a legendary performance in 12/13 you guys talk about him disappearing in a two legged semi final vs Dortmund...what about the numerous times he destroyed Barcelona(la liga champions) scored in 6 consecutive matches against them across 2012 and 2013 a historic record His all round play (ie playmaking)was better than any forward in the past 25 years at least not named messi Franck ribery wasn’t even remotely comparable to Cristiano at league level he has no argument.only the noise of michel platini confused voters and gave messi diehard fans a bit of hope A player like ribery could also never singhandely drag his team to a World Cup playing with sub par teammates (Ronaldo vs Sweden was the best individual performance of the 2013 calendar year if you know of any better please refer me to it) A top 5 player in history cannot be overrated.putting Ronaldo and overrated in the same sentence is an oxymoron. There is a serious lack of respect being awarded to cr7 on this forum especially considering this is one of two players who has defined a whole footballing era with hardly any dips in performance (10 years)
What are you talking about? There is hardly a single person who doesn't rate CR7 a top 10 in the history of the game on this forum. What more respect do we need to show Ronaldo? Honestly, for me personally Ronaldo at 13/14 up to today, really lowers his ranking. I would not put him top 10 if I only rated him from this time period. The only moment or period of time when I would rate CR7 am easy top 7 from 13-18 is from April to May 16-17. Sidenote: in Di Stefano's day, there were rules that prevented the same player winning balond'or two times in a row. As this is a point you have brought up before