World Cup Final: France vs Croatia, July 15 [R]

The arguments on whether it was or wasn't a penalty to me are rather uninteresting. This was clearly not a phantom penalty and the call was well within the rules of what constitutes a handball penalty.

Of course, depending on which side someone was rooting for (or, in the case of the English media and posters who seem to have taken up Croatia's cause, which side you wanted to have eliminated your team in light of arguments that England's road to the semis -and potentially the final- was easy), one can try to debate the so-called "deliberateness" of the handball. But we could that forever with most handball penalties.

That said, there is one point in these argument that I do find worthy of further consideration, namely the extent that being favored itself favors a side against an underdog team? In this context, lets assume that we had the same game and but the handball occurred exactly the same way but in reverse. For instance, it was Greizman's hands and not Perisic's on a corner-kick for Croatia at around the same time in the match. What would have happened?

First, would the VAR team alert the referee of the handball? Too much is made of the "clear and obvious error", which frankly wasn't relevant here. The original incident was missed by Pitana since he awarded a goal kick. The standard that would apply here would be whether the referee had missed a serious incident that could be a penalty? The answer seems obvious to me, and the VAR team should have brought the incident to Pitana's attention, but if VAR team wanted to favor France, I suppose they could miss it too! That would actually be quite bad on them.

Second, would Pitana call that a penalty if it was against France? I am pretty sure he would. Which is why I am a bit concerned that a valid argument (namely VAR, officials and a lot of people) rooting for the favored sides and usually making things tougher than its fair for the underdogs, is being wasted on a penalty that wasn't controversial to me. If it was controversial, it would legitimately only be controversial because the handball penalty rules (like so many other rules that allow penalties for infractions that aren't preventing a goal scoring chance) don't make sense.

 

Well, strictly speaking, on that subject I'm still a bit pissed off about the fact that Dejan Lovren spent most of England's match clattering into our forwards and received ZERO yellow cards and very few fouls.

So I'm gonna have to disagree with you about that because, in terms of sponsorship, we are an even bigger country and we didn't get the calls.

Frankly I'd love to be able to say it was a clear and obvious handball

I just don't think it was. It was just a poor decision.

 

Might be a problem with the WiFi chip in the ball. I saw more weird header misses than ever before in this World Cup. Some lead to handballs called or uncalled.

 

What weird to me is soo many "own goal" in this WC, like in the whole WC history. Too many own goal this this time that give the score to the other team.
Never see a WC that has as many own goal as this one.

And the stats of this WC: https://www.scmp.com/sport/soccer/a...-cup-stats-russia-2018-numbers-records-tumble

 

???

I haven't read through the entire thread but Karloski's an England supporter and so am I and yet we're arguing on opposite sides so I'm not sure where that comes from.

Anyway, whatever...

So a 'clear and obvious error' can't include a ref completely missing the incident? Really?

On what basis are you making that statement?

It seems perfectly to me, (and I suspect many others), that that would be very much the sort of thing they had in mind.

As in 'clear and obvious', yes.

They had to bring it to his attention, yes. I don't think anybody disputes that.

'Preventing a goal scoring chance'? Not sure what that has to do with it? But also, WHY don't the handball rules, (like 'so many others'), not make sense?

Anyway, I can't speak for others but I have absolutely NO interest in 'rooting' for any particular side in this match. If the roles had been reversed and it was the Croatians I'd STILL say it wasn't a clear handball.

But there is one aspect you haven't mentioned, (that I though you were coming to), and that is, when the VAR people say to the ref, 'This needs checking', do the refs almost feel OBLIGED to reverse their decision.

If you have a roomful of people with VAR who have watched it multiple times from different angles, aren't you ALWAYS inclined to agree with them to save looking like a fool?

Further, in the case of an incident you have missed altogether, if you ARE inclined to reverse your decision, (or non-decision more to the point), wouldn't that mean we might just as well go straight to the refs (non)-decision being overturned by the VAR people... if that's what's going to happen anyway?

 

I don't feel like engaging in a protracted argument over what is actually clear and obvious to me. And by that I don't mean the deliberateness of the handball, but the applicable VAR rules.

The VAR team (not the referee who then is looking at an incident through VAR) has to decide whether there has been a clear and obvious error or if there was a serious incident that was missed. If a referee sees an incident, but decides to call it one way, the referee's judgment is to be respected and not 2nd guessed unless the VAR team believes he is making a clear and obvious error. If the referee has missed a serious incident, such as a handball, he can also be alerted. Once the referee chooses to review an incident, either because he is told his judgment looks to be clearly and obviously wrong on replay, or because he has missed an incident, he will then decide the call on its merits. Not on whether he erred but his error wasn't clear and obvious.

 

I think the problem with the Perisic handball was they just gave Griezman a dive free kick!

U gift them two goals! Two freaking goals!

They are France with stars at every position but striker, lb, and rb (hehe) vs Croatia with Modric, Rakitic, Subasic, and Manzukic maybe Perisic Lovren.

Jesus u need to give them that much of an advantage in a Championship game? This is the World Cup Final. Use your brain ref... don’t decide
The outcome of the world’s most important sporting event unless it’s totally obvious. You are just a ref! Let them play! Let it be decided on the field 11 vs 11! Jesus didn’t u watch the Argentina Nigeria game where they called the handball off? I’m ok you gave them one goal, but two! (Obscenities) obscenity u also to the people who changed the seeding rules in 2014 which made us untrustful of France. We’d love to celebrate the French multicultural team and all that means to the world and all it’s achievements, but can’t cause of your constant meddling with the rules and favoritism which makes their achievements seem fake, contrived, and set up.

 

You're just telling us the established facts which aren't in question.

My point was, is the ref under pressure to come to decision reversing his opinion regardless of whether he would think it right if he was given enough time.

I suspect he's under ENORMOUS pressure, simply by the nature of the situation.

 

Why no var in the case of the Giroud foul on Hazard in the semi right outside of the box? Where’s the pressure on the refs to make the call there. #fakeresult. I’ll even concede Belgium and Croatia should have gotten a bunch of more yellow cards for stopping break always in both semis which effected who was in the semis and final. Brazil wasn’t getting calls and Neymar was getting hacked like nuts... they were predetermined not to get into the semis.

 

To me, at least, you are barking on the wrong tree. I will posted something I posted elsewhere, slightly condensed and edited:

It is true: the own goal that put France on top was against the run of play. Croatia was doing better than France and it seemed to some unfair that France would take the lead without having a shot on Croatia's goal.

But whose fault is that?

The foul that led to the free-kick that led to the own goal might not have been clearly a foul. Maybe the contact didn't cause Greizman's fall and he was going down anyway? Or maybe the trip/contact did contribute to the fall. Regardless, that free-kick wasn't some bizarre and totally unjustified call. After so many replays of the incident, there will be referees who couldn't care about France or Croatia who will still decide that foul differently from one another. And there were a couple of degrees of separation between that free-kick and the goal. There was the free-kick, the own header, and the Croatian goalie not doing enough to save the goal.

So, again, whose fault was that own goal that put France ahead against the run of play? .

It is also true that the handball penalty was unnecessary and so untimely. After Croatia had managed to score a nice goal to draw the game level, it was entirely unfortunate for Croatia to find itself trailing again.

But whose fault was that?

The handball was pretty clear even if what Perisic was trying to do in that incident wasn't.

I guess every handball penalty, short of what Suarez did against Ghana, can find someone to spin it to make it seem questionable. But what I know is that after watching a good bit of football over the years, that there was nothing bizarre or out of the ordinary for a referee to call that handball a penalty.

So once again, whose fault was that there was a handball in Croatia's box that gave France a penalty and, as a consequence, the lead once again?

I think most of Croatia's fans know the answer, even if they try to deflect it to point the finger at the referee.

 

Hey there, you should read this link: https://nypost.com/2018/05/18/former-fifa-executive-admits-world-cup-draw-was-fixed/

I wouldn't be surprise if France were fixed to met up with the small underdog team Croatia for the final. It possible.

oh well, looking forward to 2022.
This WC is just weird to me, all the powerhouse one by one crash out of the WC, at first I thought it was an unpredictable WC, now it just weird to me.

 

And Lol at the part in post #910 about Suarez. I have NOT see anyone who help or spin anything to help Suarez handball to make it seem questionable.

 

You need read my post carefully, because I never suggested otherwise. I specifically wrote: "I guess every handball penalty, short of what Suarez did against Ghana, can find someone to spin it to make it seem questionable. But what I know is that after watching a good bit of football over the years, that there was nothing bizarre or out of the ordinary for a referee to call that handball a penalty."

 

You guys insist on Griezmann's dive, I'm pretty sure the Croatian player was about to get the contact but why not. However, Kanté hasn't committed any foul either on the free kick which allowed Croatia to score the first goal, and Kanté even got a yellow card for it! The only reason why no one talks about it is because France eventually won in the end. But let's assume the game would have ended on a Croatian victory after that and it would be the major topic, with salty French people (myself included) complaining about it.

As for the handball, please guys, have a bit of consistency. It is just impossible to NOT whistle a penalty on a hand deflecting a ball with the arm extended far from the body. There is just no way to apply the rule differently. A referee is not in the player's brain and will never be sure of intentionality in one way or another. The referee can check if the hand is near the body, he can check if the hand goes in direction of the ball, he can check if the hand deflect a ball which wouldn't have been deflected otherwise, but he cannot know what's in the mind of the player when it happens. Intentionality, when it is blatant, only determines whether the player deserves a red card or not (like it was the case for Colombia against Japan), but it is not the key to determine whether or not a handball should be whistled.

 

It's funny seeing people hanging for dear life onto that "clear and obvious" specification of the rule when we all know that 98% of refs would have called this exactly the same way.
And as someone else pointed out, if the exact same situation had happened but in reverse, I have absolutely zero doubt the ref would have called the penalty against France.

Now about the first goal, I agree, there's a dive 100%. Now what people totally (purposefully?) omit to mention is that the Croatian player absolutely fouls Griezmann as he's falling down.
So maybe the ref called that, or maybe he called the dive. But even if Griezmann hadn't dived, the foul would have occurred anyway half a second later, and the ref would have given the free kick anyway, and Manzukic would have scored the own goal anyway.

Naughtius Maximus has recorded the game so maybe he can also make a clip of the first goal / dive to show the clear foul of the Croatian player.

To me it's clear, no goal was "given" to us. All four are totally legit.

 

It is actually quite a bit of work to do it but, in the meantime... be careful of what you wish for...



The 'clear foul', eh?

As for the, '98% of refs would have called it'... presumably that's why he had to check it a dozen times, (and THEN check it again)...because it was SOOO obvious?

 

For me, it is clearly NOT a penalty. Yes, he handled the ball, but I don't see any clear indication that it was INTENTIONAL.

Law 12 says: "handles the ball deliberately"

The original ruling was no foul, and there was NOT clear evidence for a VAR reversal. I think it's as simple as that, and many referees at high levels agree with this assessment. "Well within the rules" does not seem consistent with Law 12.

The first goal came from a free kick that was clearly a dive from Griezmann. Let's face it, the referee bottled it, giving France the victory. That's life. Bad luck and bad refereeing are substantial factors at every World Cup, sadly.

 

I can tell you what the player with the handball was thinking: absolutely nothing! There wasn't time to think. There wasn't even time to react. Watch the video!

Please don't talk about Law 12. You don't understand it.

Griezmann dived. It is clear and is not for debate. The video was posted above. Do not come on here and post nonsense. We are tired of it.

 

When you become a referee that is awarded the final of the World Cup, you will have the opportunity to rule on the call in a way that goes in opposite of what the Pitana (once he saw the incident, which he obviously had not at first, ruling a goal-kick), along with the World Cup referees doing the VAR duty decided. In the meantime, since I don't doubt for a second that I have no serious bias (except perhaps wanting to see Mbappe play well and a good game) in favor of either side, and have seen and read enough about the call already, I will go with own judgment based on the LOTG as interpreted by FIFA's interpretations and guidelines.

The only arguments I personally concede on the issues being discussed are as follows:

1- Croatia was doing better than France in the 1st half and the goals gave France a tactical advantage for the 2nd half.
2- The handball penalty is harsh and unfair, not because it was against the LOTG the way they are interpreted for referees, but because all such infractions which don't involve a legitimate goal scoring chance, are harsh to penalize with a PK (70% goal).
3- The first goal came from a free-kick that was ify, in the sense that the incident involved both a dive and contact that could be interpreted as a foul. Either way, you can't make a up a conspiracy theory from a referee giving a 50/50 type free-kick to another side. A free-kick isn't a PK regardless of whether it actually leads to a goal. When a free-kick results in a goal, the focus should be on the free-kick, the defenders and goalie positioned to defend against it and the original foul deserves (at best) passing mention.

 

Your opinion is in direct contradiction to several referees who HAVE refereed at the Word Cup Keep this in mind. I haven't talked about any conspiracy theory or any bias on your part. I say that the referee simply got it wrong.

 

And supported by many more still.

I don't know about you, but most of the ex-players, coaches, and referees who are taking a very pedantic line about the officiating are fans of England. They seem to imagine that both losing easily to Belgium in the 3rd place match, and Croatia losing (score wise) easily 4:2 to France in the final, makes it hard for them to avoid the impression that their road to the semifinal was from a rather easy bracket. I am speculating, but that seems to be why a disproportionate number of English fans seem to be dragging this non-issue for so long.

 

France too good. Lucky first goal but the penalty was a penalty then Croatia got destroyed. Better team in the first half but that's the way football goes.

It was a very good final.

 

Same goes for Umtiti's handball against Australia, yet it was impossible to not whistle a penalty on that one too.

Getting salty obviously.

Where did I say he didn't dive? Yep, definitely getting salty.

 

The fix was in a long time ago. Slavic team in Slavic country vs France in the final. It was always Croatia/ Russian vs France. I called France winning this World Cup 4 years ago. Just read the end of the Brazil thread.

UAE (United Arab Emirates) next. Which Arabic team will make
the quarter final... maybe semifinal? ... the obvious call is Mo Salah with Egypt. Though it could be a number of different Muslim teams from Asia, Africa, or another rainbow European team. France had a large Muslim contingent. No doubt USA Britain and Italy have strong ties to the region so i expect all of them back In qualification in 2022. Xavi has been working with the Qatar national team. So they might show some impressive passing technique.

Germany will be back to qfinals. They won’t come to the tournament with an inflated ego again expect them to come back with one of the greats from 2002-2014 as coach. France is young enough to qfinals- finals again, but they won’t win with their older team.

It’s a 32 team tournament so:

Host:
Qatar

UEFA:
Italy
Holland
Spain
Germany
SwitZerland
France
England

Possibly:

Croatia
Portugal
Russia
Sweden
Belgium

Maybe:
Greece
Denmark
Poland
Serbia