Yeah, your goalkeepers one works for me from page 1 of this thread now (and I assume all the others - except the History of Football one which I checked because it still was prefixed with www.bigsoccer and not forums.bigsoccer - I think that change is the reason old links didn't work actually isn't it). I don't think it matters now, so not asking you to change it or anything, but this is the Sheep Draft thread, with the link to an Update thread that didn't/doesn't work today: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/sheep-draft-v-main-thread.2000793/page-12 I guess all the threads were given new addresses but any existing links show the old ones.
Then there's great athletes like Pele and Maradona, who you can easily tell are clearly superior athletes when compared to many of the modern star players.
Do you think that Pele and Maradona were the only superior athletes in their time. Lets look at Messi and Ronaldo. There are tons of players who are athletic as they are. for starters, we can look at the majority of african players. let alone the other athletic players in england, france, etc. How many of them come close to messi or ronaldo. im not saying athleticism doesnt help, im just saying that im not gonna discredit players from the past simply because they played in the past. Good players are good players. regardless of the times.
I agree with your point, I just think that players from past eras tend to be underrated in the "athletics" department.
Agree that natural aptitude is far from the decisive or most important factor but re: athleticism of African players I think actually that quite a few do not stand out with their first steps and agility (particularly from a standstill position), which are important attributes in football. The first steps can look 'languid' if you know what I mean. Furthermore, because football is (even today) an injury prone sport, the caretaking and treatment of the body is important (next to a dose of luck and 'knowing' the right persons etc.). I think even a freak of nature as Cristiano lost something of his footballing skills after his 2008 injuries (the more I 'studied' that episode). It has to be remembered as well that a considerable majority of the 'legends' have grounded their legacy on a long-time commitment, often predating their professional debut, to a specific club (generally from the 'home' or a 'familiar' country). Exceptions like Platini, Zidane and Cristiano aside of course (and about a player as Zidane you can question whether it's really based on his club career). But in general that's a strong pattern.
This is a strong example http://www.espnfc.com/blog/tactics-...ter-city-likely-regret-selling-jerome-boateng
Nowadays, there is no great and loyal stars in football. I don't remember too much because I'm 24 but I was impressed by Zanetti and Maldini. Also, Gerrard was a real captain. Now, you can't count on your avourite players. Money on their minds. Here you are proof of this business https://sporticos.com/en-gb/read/bonus They earn too much. Real Madrid and Manchester City detracted transfer market and football equals only business.
You'd rate them above Deyna and Lubanski (not saying you'd definitely be wrong to do so btw - just interested in your view especially if you are Polish yourself which I don't know)?
Did I not see Paul Mcgrath in the best centre backs? If so then that's a cardinal sin. Ian Rush called him his most difficult opponent, A PFA player of the year winner, over 80 caps for his country, he totally out-shined Barasi when Ireland beat Italy in 94 WC.
So, I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question (and if not, feel free to bounce me to the place that is), but...what chance of an updated version (perhaps a list, 10 years on?) of these lists, Comme? In my opinion, they are the best of their kind anywhere on the web, and I refer to them regularly to this day. This update could either, in my view, be a complete rethink, given that your own opinions will have changed over time OR feature the same 'relative' ranking as the first time around, but updated with the players who have either retired or satisfied the longevity criterion you set out in your original post, back in 2009. What do you think?
That’s very kind. I’d definitely like to update them and 10 years on seems like a good milestone. Hopefully will find the time to update.
If I have understood your positional categorisation correctly, the above would mean putting him ahead of Pele in the Greatest Forwards of all time list. At around what point in his career till date, would you say that he finally surpassed Pele?
If we talk about updating the ranking, here is a small personal contribution of only active players in a historical ranking 01. GIANLUIGI BUFFON (Italia) 02. IKER CASILLAS (España) 03. MANUEL NEUER (Alemania) 04. PETER CECH (República Checa) 05. JÚLIO CESAR (Brasil) 06. THIBAUT COURTOIS (Bélgica) 07. KEYLOR NAVAS (Costa Rica) 08. JOE HART (Inglaterra) 09. CLAUDIO BRAVO (Chile) 10. JAN OBLAK (Eslovenia) 01. SERGIO RAMOS (España) 02. LÚCIO (Brasil) 03. JOHN TERRY (Inglaterra) 04. GERARD PIQUÉ (España) 05. THIAGO SILVA (Brasil) 06. MATS HUMMELS (Alemania) 07. VINCENT KOMPANY (Bélgica) 08. DIEGO GODÍN (Uruguay) 09. PEPE (Portugal) 10. GIORGIO CHIELLINI (Italia) 01. DANIEL ALVES (Brasil) 02. MAICON (Brasil) 03. MARCELO (Brasil) 04. ASHLEY COLE (Inglaterra) 05. PATRICE EVRA (Francia) 06. JORDI ALBA (España) 07. BRANISLAV IVANOVIC (Serbia) 08. STEPHAN LICHSTEINER (Suiza) 09. ALEKSANDAR KOLAROV (Serbia) 10. FILIPE LUIS (Brasil) 01. BASTIAN SCHWEINSTAIGER (Alemania) 02. JAVIER MASCHERANO (Argentina) 03. MICHAEL ESSIEN (Senegal) 04. SERGIO BUSQUETS (España) 05. DANIELE DE ROSSI (Italia) 06. THIAGO MOTTA (Italia) 07. NIGEL DE JONG (Holanda) 08. GARY MEDEL (Chile) 09. FERNANDINHO (Brasil) 10. LUIZ GUSTAVO (Brasil) 01. XAVI HERNÁNDEZ (España) 02. LUKA MODRIC (Croacia) 03. YAYA TOURÉ (Costa de Marfil) 04. TONI KROOS (Alemania) 05. CESC FÁBREGAS (España) 06. ARTURO VIDAL (Chile) 07. KEVIN DE BRUYNE (Bélgica) 08. PAUL POGBA (Francia) 09. IVAN RAKITIC (Croacia) 10. THIAGO ALCÁNTARA (España) 01. ANDRÉS INIESTA (España) 02. WESLEY SNEIJDER (Holanda) 03. MESUT OZIL (Alemania) 04. DAVID SILVA (España) 05. JAMES RODRIGUEZ (Colombia) 06. DIEGO (Brasil) 07. ISCO (España) 08. PHILIPPE COUTINHO (Brasil) 09. JOE COLE (Inglaterra) 10. JUAN MATA (España) 01. ARJEN ROBBEN (Holanda) 02. FRANCK RIBÉRY (Francia) 03. GARETH BALE (Gales) 04. ÁNGEL DI MARIA (Argentina) 05. EDEN HAZARD (Bélgica) 06. THEO WALCOTT (Inglaterra) 07. NANI (Portugal) 08. PEDRO RODRIGUEZ (España) 09. WILLIAN (Brasil) 10. ANTONIO VALENCIA (Colombia) 01. LIONEL MESSI (Argentina) 02. CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal) 03. NEYMAR JR (Brasil) 04. WAYNE ROONEY (Inglaterra) 05. SERGIO AGUERO (Argentina) 06. THOMAS MULLER (Alemania) 07. CARLOS TEVEZ (Argentina) 08. DAVID VILLA (España) 09. ALEXIS SANCHEZ (Chile) 10. ANTOINE GRIEZMANN (Francia) 01. ZLATAN IBRAHIMOVIC (Suecia) 02. LUIS SUÁREZ (Uruguay) 03. SAMUEL ETO´O (Camerún) 04. ROBERT LEWANDOWSKI (Polonia) 05. RADAMEL FALCAO (Colombia) 06. ROBIN VAN PERSIE (Holanda) 07. FERNANDO TORRES (España) 08. KARIM BENZEMA (Francia) 09. EDINSON CAVANI (Uruguay) 10. GONZALO HIGUAIN (Argentina) -------------------------------- GLOBAL -------------------------------- 01. LIONEL MESSI (Argentina) 02. CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal) 03. ANDRÉS INIESTA (España) 04. XAVI HERNÁNDEZ (España) 05. GIANLUIGI BUFFON (Italia) 06. ZLATAN IBRAHIMOVIC (Suecia) 07. IKER CASILLAS (España) 08. NEYMAR JR (Brasil) 10. ARJEN ROBBEN (Holanda) 10. LUIS SUÁREZ (Uruguay) 11. DANIEL ALVES (Brasil) 12. FRANCK RIBÉRY (Francia) 13. SERGIO RAMOS (España) 14. SAMUEL ETO´O (Camerún) 15. WESLEY SNEIJDER (Holanda) 16. WAYNE ROONEY (Inglaterra) 17. BASTIAN SCHWEINSTEIGER (Alemania) 18. MAICON (Brasil) 19. LUKA MODRIC (Croacia) 20. SERGIO AGUERO (Argentina)
No particular point in time and I’m not saying it’s clear but it has become an increasingly persuasive case in favour of Messi.
Below is a ranking of a hundred players that came to mind, based on a simplified point system : Effective skill/productivity(excluding penalties)>influence>success 1 Pelé 10,9,10 2 Di Stéfano 9,9,9 3 Maradona 9,9,8, Cruijff 9,9,8 5 Schmeichel 9,9,7 6 Messi 9,8,9, Müller 9,8,9 8 Yashin 9,8,8, Nordahl 9,8,8 10 Sárosi 9,8,6 11 Stojkovic 9,8,5 12 Scarone 9,7,10 13 Meazza 9,7,9, Walter 9,7,9 15 Nasazzi 8,10,10 16 Suárez-Miramontes 8,9,8, Rijkaard 8,9,8 18 Sindelar 8,9,7, Laudrup 8,9,7, Moreno 8,9,7 21 Cristiano Ronaldo 8,8,9, Zidane 8,8,9 23 van Basten 8,8,8, Platini 8,8,8, Romario 8,8,8, Ronaldo 8,8,8, Charlton 8,8,8, Matthäus 8,8,8, Baresi 8,8,8, Sivori 8,8,8 Puskas 8,8,8, Riquelme 8,8,8, Passarella 8,8,8, Sastre 8,8,8 Leônidas 8,8,8, Kubala 8,8,8 37 Netzer 8,8,7, Kopa 8,8,7, Eusebio 8,8,7, Spencer 8,8,7, Mazzola 8,8,7, Moore 8,8,7, Suárez 8,8,7, Zsengellér 8,8,7, Robben 8,8,7 Navas 8,8,7 47 Orsi 8,7,9, Garrincha 8,7,9, Buffon 8,7,9, Rivaldo 8,7,9 51 Ronaldinho 8,7,8, Best 8,7,8, Zico 8,7,8, Liedholm 8,7,8 55 Zizinho 8,7,7, Figueroa 8,7,7 57 Baggio 8,7,6, Hagi 8,7,6 59 Charles 8,7,5 60 Henry 8,6,9 61 Haynes 8,6,5 62 Juninho Pernambucano 7,10,7 63 Cafú 7,9,10, Beckenbauer 7,9,10 65 Desailly 7,9,9, Schiaffino 7,9,9 67 Redondo 7,9,8, Francescoli 7,9,8, Cubillas 7,9,8, Piola 7,9,8, Mauro Silva 7,9,8 72 Drogba 7,9,7 73 Artime 7,9,6, da Guia 7,9,6 75 Gilmar 7,8,10, Gento 7,8,10, Xavi 7,8,10, Iniesta 7,8,10, R. Carlos 7,8,10 80 Djalma Santos 7,8,9 81 Maldini 7,8,8, Dalglish 7,8,8 Falcao 7,8,8, Raumdeuter, 7,8,8 Gullit 7,8,8, Figo 7,8,8 87 Inzaghi 7,8,7, Juan Ramón Verón 7,8,7, Nedvěd 7,8,7 90 van Hanegem 7,8,6 91 Rummenigge 7,7,8, Keegan 7,7,8, Didi 7,7,8, Modric 7,7,8 95 Cavani 7,7,7, Weah 7,7,7, Masopust 7,7,7, Jair da Costa 7,7,7 100 Sá 6,8,10
I like your independent thinking but think a 10 for 'skill' is a must for Maradona. That's not to say there aren't others that merit the same rating, and his 'effective skill' (as you phrase it) wasn't always the same, but for his most iconic version it's probably a 10. Some would say he's the gold standard. Likewise, Cruijff merits a 10 for influence. Starting with that Ajax is the smallest team (in attendance) to win the European Cup, and that Barcelona was in a historically poor state directly before and directly after his stay (and so on). I get that only the player is considered, restricting the scope quite a bit, but still. The 'success' part is not too far off from how I'd see it (Pelé etc. are the gold standard, which is not to say others don't approach this, but Pelé at a minimum and as standard so to speak).
I personally though in something like an educational scale of level. Local competition - High School Intl. Clubs - University NT level - Master / Doctorate With this in mind. A tentative way of ranking players will be: Two categories with 10 points max. each. Skillset Technical - up to 5 Mental - up to 2 Physical - up to 3 Performance Local comp - up to 4 Intl. Club - up to 3 NT level - up to 3
Skill is indeed high in Maradona but to clarify "effective skill" ; basically how effective a player is in getting a good result. E.G. Beckenbauer had a lot of skill but I don't see it very effective. Or Cruijff did not have Maradona's techniques but his workrate compensates, same for ADH. Influence I see as indeed lifting up a team but also as showing up in the big games individually. Cruijff does really well here, although not as consistently as only 2 others.