The Cyle Larin Offseason 2017-18 Saga

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by Robert Borden, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I like the nuance answers. Larin is in the wrong but these kinds of unilateral options on contracts are also ethically questionable. That I can 100% agree with that.
     
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  2. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I agree he's blacklisted in MLS. However, Europeans don't care as he's not in Europe complaining within the Euro context. For them that's a US matter and once the dust clears up and if he doesn't end up with Besiktas, he gets signed.
     
  3. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "But he started it!" isn't a valid argument.

    I should also probably note that my comment to stop wasn't made as a Moderator of this forum. :)
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  4. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #279 Robert Borden, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018




    https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/af...e_status_and_transfer_of_players_en_33410.pdf

    1.All applications to register a professional must be submitted by the new club to the new association during one of the registration periods established by that association. All applications shall be accompanied by a copy of the contract between the new club and the professional.
    A professional is not eligible to play in official matches for his new club until an ITC has been issued by the former association and received by the new association.

    2.Upon receipt of the application, the new association shall immediately request the former association to issue an ITC for the professional (“ITC request”). An association that receives an unsolicited ITC from another association is not entitled to register the professional concerned with one of its clubs.

    3.Upon receipt of the ITC request, the former association shall immediately request the former club and the professional to confirm whether the professional’s contract has expired, whether early termination was mutually agreed or whether a contractual dispute exists.

    4.Within seven days of receiving the ITC request, the former association
    shall either:
    a) issue the ITC to the new association; or
    b) inform the new association that the ITC cannot be issued because the contract between the former club and the professional has not expired or that there has been no mutual agreement regarding its early termination.

    5.If the new association does not receive a response to the ITC request within 30 days of the ITC request being made, it shall immediately register the professional with the new club on a provisional basis (“provisional registration”). A provisional registration shall become permanent one year after the ITC request. The Players’ Status Committee may withdraw a provisional registration, if, during this one-year period, the former association presents valid reasons explaining why it did not respond to the ITC request.

    **Since no one has a clue what happened in Orlando Front office, nothing short of handling this by the book might have provided Besiktas with a loophole for the provisional ITC in question
     
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  5. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    European teams use team only contract options as well.. If Larin wins, contract options aren't ended just for MLS teams, it would be ended for all teams. So, yes, Europeans would care about this.
     
  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I took it as such. Since its not meant that way :p
     
  7. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
     
  8. PhillyMLS

    PhillyMLS Member+

    Oct 24, 2000
    SE PA
    Interesting thing about that whole pre-contract thing:

    https://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared Documents/642.pdf

    Now, maybe this has changed over time but the only CAS case I found that talks about signing a player to a pre-contract. In this case they (and the DRC before them) ruled that in order to enter into negotiations you still had to actually inform the club that you were doing so. So, if that is true then Besiktas would still be in the wrong here.

    That also raises another question. If Besiktas had notified Orlando of their intention to talk to Larin then Orlando would have exercised the option at that point, so he would still be under contract and unable to sign a pre-contract.

    And in reference to the 6 month thing, I don't think that is necessarily true. As referenced in the Ascoli case (https://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared Documents/3852.pdf) they had a date that was only a week before contracts would typically expire and it was deemed to be a valid option.
     
  9. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    It's complicated because two different things are going on. Let's say that the market isn't perfectly competitive and both sides have some bargaining power. In most cases, MLS probably has more power so can reduce salaries somewhat.

    Now reverse it and take away MLS's bargaining power. How does that affect me as a fan? For a given amount of revenue, higher salaries mean lower quality players - a $100k players now is worse than a $100k player before. So in that sense, my interests are opposite of the interests of the players. Now, maybe for social justice reasons I should be siding with the poor players over the rich owners, but on the other hand, these are some well-paid 22-year-olds who have a formal bargaining process.

    What makes this more complicated is that option years are just a way for that market power to be expressed. For example, MLS could say to a player, I'll sign you to a low salary for three years or a higher salary for three years plus two option years. Both are ways of suppressing salaries. Why one over the other? My guess is that how the upside risk is shared. Say that most players turn out to be duds but occasionally one player turns out to be exceptional, and that it can be hard to tell which will be which. MLS could just offer a low fixed-term contract and accept that they will miss out on any gain if the player turns out to be great. Or MLS could offer a higher contract with option years. MLS benefits from capturing some of the upside. An exceptional players loses, but that's ameliorated by the fact that he turned out to be exceptional and will have a number of high-salary years. The dud player gains from the existence of option years because they get the higher earlier salary.

    I can see how one might find MLS using its bargaining power as unethical (although then you should be complaining whenever firms use bargaining power) but I'm not sure option years per se are unethical.
     
  10. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
  11. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Seems that this is the case that Besiktas might be using to base a future challenge at FIFA. It's a case where FIFA sided with the player over the club

     
  12. Gamecock14

    Gamecock14 Member+

    May 27, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    In Section 13, it states that because the players would receive less that 1k a month or 12k a year with the extension year, he does not have "significant gain".

    It depends on how much more money he gains by option year being picked up. If it's McInerney money, his option years were like 40k increases. That's the last GA player I know for definite who had options that were exercised rather than a new contract like Walker Zimmerman.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  13. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    955900218054148096 is not a valid tweet id

     
  14. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I saw a Tweet from someone suggesting MLSPAis probably siding with Larin; have you seen something formally where they are on the record (or even just off the record) suggesting a key provision of the CBA be abrogated?
     
    Allez RSL repped this.
  15. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    No I haven't seen anything from the MLSPA
     
  16. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I'm just surprised he's being offered 1.5 million euros a year. That's ten times his current ages with Orlando.
     
  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    He was being underpaid in MLS in regards to his production compared to others, which is fine...a contract is a contract. But if that option is indeed a 5% increase or a modest increase...that doesn't look good with the kind of numbers he was putting in MLS.

    I heard arguments from both side and I can't say I like Orlando's chances in front of FIFA if that optional year increase isn't substantial.
     
  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I agree. I could easily see him being paid $400-500 K in MLS, but it's impressive this is what Besiktas is offering. I'm no expert, but it seems a pretty large salary for the Turkish league. For a newbie with less than 3 years of pro experience.
     
  19. BHTC Mike

    BHTC Mike Member+

    Apr 12, 2006
    Burlington, ON
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    This.

    A million times this. I manged to keep my mouth shut until now, but thank you for making the point I've wanted to.

    And that's without even mentioning the signing bonuses in contracts that players also get in return for the giving the team options.

    Or that for most players, the team options are a worthwhile risk, which is why they keep signing contracts with team options. In most cases players will want the team to pick up their option, and expect that they'll be good enough to justify it! The risk that they'll turn out to be way better than expected and unable to negotiate a new contract sooner is no different than if they were on a fixed term of the same length. So unless you think you're *not* going to be worth it for the options years -- and really, what player thinks that about themself -- the team option years are, from the players' perspective, a cheap thing to give away when bargaining.

    People who think that any of this is even remotely unethical have never negotiated anything in their life.
     
  20. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    So you are making shit up?
     
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  21. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Does anyone think Orlando excersising the option is ONLY leading to the minimum %5 bump?

    That Twitter poster has no clue what they are talking about.
     
  22. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Oh please, Larin's case is at the benefit of the players. If he were to have a favorable ruling from FIFA this would strenghten the MLSPA argument to get improvements on options on contracts, they'd be in a better bargaining position the next time around. If you think the MLSPA wants Larin to fail, think again.
     
  23. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Is that Duane Rollins Twitter account yours? Just curious.
     
    profiled repped this.
  24. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #299 Robert Borden, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
    lol, do you? You're free to go ahead and debate him on twitter but he's knows MLS almost inside out I don't know if the 5% is true or not, all I'm saying, is that nothing short than a substantial raise would weaken MLS case in front of a FIFA hearing.

    Who could have predict that Larin would produce that much when he was drafted/ Most of MLS rookies that gets drafted turns out to be flops, so I don't see why/how Orlando would have predicted he'd be an MLS all-star and preemptively build up his optional year raise to be way above average for an unproven rookie, a Canadian of all people :)
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #300 Robert Borden, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
    Lol, I've met him but nope. We're on 2 different universe in terms of our love for MLS. He loves TFC and MLS to death but he knows football. Try debate him...good luck. He's a journalist now freelancing I believe
     

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