Actually, no Giresse would be in rather than Deschamps instead, so I'll say Rocheteau in but no Papin or Piantoni (fitting well if the aim is to play 4-2-2-2 or similar and also capable of playing very well wide in a 4-2-3-1 I think). I'll go with Guardiola rather than Alonso for Spain too in the end. Spain 1 - Ricardo Zamora 2 - Michel Salgado 3 - Jose Antonio Camacho 4 - Josep Guardiola 5 - Fernando Hierro 6 - Gerard Pique 7 - Raul 8 - Xavi 9 - Fernando Torres 10 - Luis Suarez Miramontes 11 - Francisco Gento 12 - Rafael Martin Vazquez 13 - Andoni Zubizaretta 14 - Pirri 15 - Sergio Ramos 16 - Sergio Busquets 17 - Emilio Butragueno 18 - Andres Iniesta 19 - David Villa 20 - Joan Segarra 21 - Iker Casillas 22 - Amancio 23 - Rafael Gordillo France 1 - Joel Bats 2 - Manuel Amoros 3 - Bixente Lizarazu 4 - Patrick Vieira 5 - Laurent Blanc 6 - Marcel Desailly 7 - Eric Cantona 8 - Alain Giresse 9 - Bernard Genghini 10 - Michel Platini 11 - Robert Pires 12 - Marius Tresor 13 - Hugo Lloris 14 - Jean Tigana 15 - Lilian Thuram 16 - Patrick Battiston 17 - Just Fontaine 18 - Raymond Kopa 19 - Dominique Rocheteau 20 - Thierry Henry 21 - Fabien Barthez 22 - Zinedine Zidane 23 - Maxime Bossis
So if I pick both the France and Spain teams lol, to play each other in a Fantasy World Cup, maybe I lean at least 60% to a France win (if a knock-out game, after 120 mins and maybe penalties - if a group game then France slight favourites but similar odds to a draw perhaps!)
Oh, sorry mate! Actually, not 100% sure I understand what you don't understand lol! But to explain everything... The numbers are potential squad numbers for an All-Time World Cup Squad. The players bolded in red/blue are starters, and those in red/blue but not bolded are subs if I name 5 like they did in the 1970s and 1980s (for some reason I liked to do that on this thread!). The chances for France to progress if they play a knock-out game with my selections, in my estimation, are 6 times out of 10, or perhaps better!
I take it you don't rate Casillas highly. In my opinion, despite having had a sudden and steep decline (which kind of stands out from your average goalkeeper who is usually able to maintain his standards of performance quite level even late in his career), he's truly been a great GK from an all time perspective and my impression is that for many a season he was very close if not on par with Buffon (who is either the GOAT keeper or the 2nd greatest after Yashin). So I rate him way higher than Zubizarreta, who I never perceived as having a case for best current GK in the world, having shared his timeline with Schumacher, Pfaff, Dasaev, Zenga, Preud'homme, Schmeichel, and I'll stick even Pagliuca in there.
I don't think your view would be unusual there (although Zubi was occasionally listed in some all-time selections - in a book I have and in one list on rsssf for example - he too had a decline with some dodgier moments towards the end of his career I tend to think). I know some definitely feel Arconada was world class too. I do tend to rate Preud'homme over Zubi myself I think for example, but I'd also say I'm no expert on goalkeepers and have limited experience of watching them, to form the impression (to some extent that applies to us all I suppose though).
Actually, I'm not sure what happened there but I really had brainfade (also re: Giresse though).... Too late to change my post now, but based on my impressions, I would actually include David De Gea. Sorry for the oversight! Maybe it'd be a matter of choosing between the legend Zamora and the new star De Gea. I'd certainly find it hard/impossible to choose, but I'll just assume Zamora (on legend it still is I think, and some of the old goalies certainly did have some talent I can see and he was still very highly regarded when new European star goalies were emerging in the 50s I'd think).
Cool. Yes, he seems to be getting a lot of plaudits in general. I remember Giles on this board saying something very complimentary about him in comparison to past great goalies. Many people (Jamie Carragher as one example) seem to suggest he's the second best PL goalie ever (I guess also names like Seaman, Cech, van der Sar are in contention for that). I will re-do the two squads quickly now actually, as probably I feel I should/would go with the added squad balance and put Petit in for Genghini in my French selection too. Spain 1 - Ricardo Zamora 2 - Michel Salgado 3 - Jose Antonio Camacho 4 - Josep Guardiola 5 - Fernando Hierro 6 - Gerard Pique 7 - Raul 8 - Xavi 9 - Fernando Torres 10 - Luis Suarez Miramontes 11 - Francisco Gento 12 - Rafael Martin Vazquez 13 - David De Gea 14 - Pirri 15 - Sergio Ramos 16 - Sergio Busquets 17 - Emilio Butragueno 18 - Andres Iniesta 19 - David Villa 20 - Joan Segarra 21 - Andoni Zubizaretta 22 - Amancio 23 - Rafael Gordillo France 1 - Joel Bats 2 - Manuel Amoros 3 - Bixente Lizarazu 4 - Patrick Vieira 5 - Laurent Blanc 6 - Marcel Desailly 7 - Eric Cantona 8 - Alain Giresse 9 - Dominique Rocheteau 10 - Michel Platini 11 - Robert Pires 12 - Marius Tresor 13 - Hugo Lloris 14 - Jean Tigana 15 - Lilian Thuram 16 - Patrick Battiston 17 - Just Fontaine 18 - Raymond Kopa 19 - Emmanuel Petit 20 - Thierry Henry 21 - Fabien Barthez 22 - Zinedine Zidane 23 - Maxime Bossis So in theory that'd give me a second XI for Spain of: De Gea; Segarra, Pirri, Ramos, Camacho; Guardiola; Amancio, Martin Vazquez, Gento; Torres, Villa (4-1-3-2 definitely seems more likely with those XI than sticking with a diamond, whereby I guess Martin Vazquez might even go to one side of it, leaving Amancio or Gento in a free role or something, supporting the attack, albeit especially Gento would be best operating mainly down the left I'd think) And for France I'd probably be looking at a reserve XI in a 4-2-3-1: Lloris; Battiston, Thuram, Tresor, Bossis; Giresse, Petit; Rocheteau, Cantona, Pires; Henry (or 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 perhaps; if trying to use the 4-2-2-2 or 4-2-2-1-1 magic square setup again for those XI I guess it's either Rocheteau or Cantona as AM with Pires, and the other in attack supporting Henry) In a match situation with my first XIs (these can never happen of course, but it's always sort of fun to speculate...or re-create on FIFA/PES or CM/FM!), unless it became quickly evident De Gea was indeed a severe upgrade on Zamroa, possibly my most likely tactical Spanish subs would be Martin Vazquez for Iniesta, or maybe Suarez, and/or Villa for Butragueno, or maybe Raul. For France, unless again Lloris suddenly seemed more assured than Bats and I wanted a 'calmer' time watching lol, maybe it'd be Henry for Fontaine, or perhaps Kopa, and/or Pires for Zidane or perhaps Tigana with potentially a system switch-up to more of a 4-1-4-1 or something.
I wasn't very clear, sorry, my bad. I meant I second your pick of Zubi over De Gea. To me the all time ranking of Spanish keepers is Zamora > Casillas > Zubi > De Gea (Net of my unfamiliarity with Zamora, so I put him up there out of "legendary status")
Oh, ok, no problem! Maybe "How does De Gea now compare to Casillas and Zubi?" might be a decent discussion topic for the board (preferably with some input from goalkeeping enthusiasts and/or Spaniards!). It can be a case of English people especially appreciating performances and status in the Premier League of course.
I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the consensus XI when all tallied up! French posters tended to include him too. For my team without wingers, Amoros is more technical and adventurous though for sure. And perhaps Desailly was more effective without foul play than Parma-era Thuram (or perhaps not, and older Thuram can be relevant too I guess) as CB plus he had the partnership with Blanc that was proven great in reality in how it functioned and in it's success. So that would be my thinking anyway, but sure I see your rationale too. No two individauls will go the same way, but I did put your favourite player in my XI anyway lol (it could almost be said at Thuram's expense given Desailly was placed in the midfield in another selection as you discussed earlier).
Come to think of it I never posted my France selection. 4222 Bats; Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Lizarazu; Vieira, Deschamps; Zidane, Platini; Fontaine, * * = I'd say Henry. If I was more familiar with him I could say Kopa. In the future I think I'll say Mbappé
If he was going to link up with Zidane like he links up with Hoddle here at 2:53 onwards I'd be tempted with Amoros at left-back instead maybe! But I always rated Lizarazu (who connected pretty well with Zidane himself!) and again for a team without wingers his left-footedness is handy maybe. Bossis is also a quality and technical option in that position as has been hinted at already in the thread. Amoros was pretty solid and capable from a defensive viewpoint too though to be fair. IIRC I made him MOTM vs Northern Ireland in WC1982 when I watched that game (at RB), although France Football didn't rate him so high....and it'd be a borderline choice among several well performing French players for me I suppose anyway (I actually went with Bossis despite the missed penalty vs W.Germany after seeing all of that - him and Amoros even switched sides as full-backs during that one I think!). France Football (and Ballon d'Or voters) did rate him very high in 1986 though certainly. His quality of crosses and passes would be greater than Thuram's I think to be fair anyway, so I'd suggest it's really if Thuram's imposing defensive prowess was preferred (admittedly in a primarily defensive position...albeit for a 'footballing' team) that he might get the nod over Amoros (or Battiston likewise - he could also fill in for Blanc as a straight replacement perhaps too btw) I think.
So in summary re: Thuram, I think I'd be more inclined to consider him at RB, due to tending to like the Blanc selection and then assuming Desailly fits best as a partner. Whether the full-backs technicality/attacking abilities should be fitted to what is ahead of them can be questionable of course (a good attacking full-back can compliment a winger, wheras maybe there's an argument that if there are lots of quality ball players in midfield/attack the most important thing for the defence is to be as solid and hard to break through as possible). Maybe Blanc as outright libero and Thuram as outright centre-back could be an option with a sweeper system though (as per Juventus with Scirea or something.....although if it was even more like that and tending towards Zona Mista then Thuarm would actually be the most obvious RB/CB pick suddenly I think!). But for me probably the closest call in terms of omissions from my first France XI would have to be Henry. Potentially, in his best form, he could surely play very well and gel well enough with the midfield, even if they weren't geared up to play to his strengths 100%. For example the form he was in vs Germany in 2003 (with Zidane in the team). But given his erratic and overall not spectacular form for France as opposed to Arsenal, then once I decided to put Kopa in, it seemed sort of obvious and certainly tempting to put Fontaine in there too, and he could be the outright scorer that might suit the team well. Henry off the bench at half-time might be a regular call though perhaps even in such a scenario.
Oddly enough ,a few weeks ago I saw a 10 minute clip of Di Stefano playing for Real Madrid but he gave the ball away repeatedly ... maybe just an off day ?
I suppose if an All-Time Italy can use a 4-2-2-2 Magic Square (and I do think it makes sense to choose it with the available great players - I think the author of The All-Time World Cup did exactly that too). then All-Time France could be lined up in Zona Mista lol! It probably seems a bit stranger somehow though! Not to make another alternative personal selection, but just to speculate on how a Zona Mista team could be (without Zidane maybe, if following the normal format).... GK - Bats SW - Blanc RB/CB - Thuram CB - Desailly LB/:LWB - Lizarazu DM - Deschamps CM - Vieira AM - Platini RM/RW - Kopa LW/SS - Henry ST - Fontaine
Peru [GK] VALDIVIESO, Juan [CB] DELGADO, Guillermo [CB] CHUMPITAZ, Héctor [SB] DUARTE, Jaime [SB] FUENTES, Nicolás [DM] VELÁSQUEZ, José [PM] CUETO, César [AM] CUBILLAS, Teófilo [WF] SOTIL, Hugo [WF] JOYA, Juan [CF] FERNÁNDEZ, Teodoro [GK] SORIANO, José [CB] MELÉNDEZ, Julio [DM] BENÍTEZ, Víctor [AM] URIBE, Julio César [FW] SEMINARIO, Juan Spain [GK] ZAMORA, Ricardo [CB] HIERRO, Fernando [CB] PUYOL, Carles [SB] RAMOS, Sergio [SB] CAMACHO, José Antonio [DM] PIRRI [PM] XAVI [PM] SUÁREZ, Luis [AM] INIESTA, Andrés [WF] GENTO, Francisco [CF] ZARRA, Telmo [GK] CASILLAS, Íker [SB] SEGARRA, Joan [CM] GUARDIOLA, Josep [AM] SAMITIER, Josep [FW] RAÚL
Argentina Ubaldo Fillol - Roberto Perfumo --- Daniel Passarella Javier Zanetti --------------------------------------------- Silvio Marzolini ------- Luis Monti ------ Fernando Redondo ---- Lionel Messi --------- Alfredo Di Stéfano ------- Diego Maradona Gabriel Batistuta 5 substitutes: [GK] CARRIZO, Amadeo [CB] RUGGERI, Óscar [AM] SASTRE, Antonio [AM] MORENO, José Manuel [FW] KEMPES, Mario
I think I only have 3 differences maximum in the starting XI on that one. Ardiles for Monti. Maybe Kempes for Batistuta. And maybe maybe Ruggeri for Perfumo. Moreno and Sastre are quite hard to judge though for me so potentially two of those changes could even involve them instead of Ardiles/Kempes I guess!
It would difficult for me to leave Monti out. In terms of transcendence, he seems to have a case to be considered the best South American defensive midfielder ever based on how he stood out in his own generation, but because of his age it's difficult to judge him precisely when not witnessing. In addition, he seems to have been harder for the ball recovery, so Redondo could be freer for mixed work. I'd go with Batistuta because I think he's the best clinical striker fed by the amazing trio behind him. Kempes would also be a good option, but I think that his skills would be better used as a free-role forward behind a striker or wing-forward. Difficult choice between Perfumo and Ruggeri. I think Moreno would be at least among the substitutes because his overall prominence (probably one of the most legendary of all-time among Maradona, Messi and Di Stéfano), while Sastre not only for his overall quality, but for his polyfunctionality, which would be very helpful in a short bench of only 5 men.