The best games of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I had some footage but unfortunately can't find it anymore.
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Either way, good and interesting work this and it is not surprising that LM10 + CR7 score well, but despite this I think there are some gaps in coverage and if I'm not mistaken Spanish sources (in particular AS, Marca, Mundo Deportivo) are a major component. It is true (maybe PDG can confirm or nuance) that in recent years the English and Spanish ones are the most generous per DBScalcio (also when excluding the superstars).
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I started with this post on friday, either way;


    Kenny Dalglish was at his best I think against Borussia Monchengladbach in the semi final of 1978. He was also notably good against Benfica and Aberdeen a few times.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1vwfib

    Between 1980 and 1985 (he's from 4 March 1951) he was either past his best age, suspended, or not fit (for example the semi finals and final of 1980-81; Dalglish left field after 4 minutes of semi final). Between 1981 and 1985 Liverpool also had relatively easy routes until the final or the stage they got eliminated (then in the finals he wasn't really good; in 1981 injured and then later on a bit old).

    Show Spoiler

    Champions Cup 1981-1982
    49. OPS (Oulo) 1-0 1 goal (84)
    50. OPS (Oulo) 7-0 1 goal (27)
    51. AZ '67 (Alkmaar) 2-2
    52. AZ '67 (Alkmaar) 3-2
    53. CSKA Sofia 1-0
    54. CSKA Sofia 0-2

    Champions Cup 1982-1983
    55. Dundalk 4-1
    56. Dundalk 1-0
    57. HJK (Helsinki) 0-1
    58. HJK (Helsinki) 5-0 1 goal (27)
    59. Widzew Lódz 0-2

    Champions Cup 1983-1984
    60. OB (Odense) 1-0 1 goal (15)
    61. OB (Odense) 5-0 2 goals (33 / 40)
    62. Athletic Bilbao 0-0
    63. Athletic Bilbao 1-0
    64. Benfica (Lisboa) 1-0
    65. Benfica (Lisboa) 4-1
    66. Dinamo Bucuresti 1-0
    67. Dinamo Bucuresti 2-1
    68. AS Roma 1-1

    Champions Cup 1984-1985
    69. Lech Poznan 1-0
    70. Lech Poznan 4-0
    71. Benfica (Lisboa) 3-1
    72. Benfica (Lisboa) 0-1
    73. Panathinaikos AO 4-0
    74. Panathinaikos AO 1-0
    75. Juventus 0-1
    http://www.rsssf.com/players/dalglish-in-ec.html


    I'd say that 1978 game was his best, also in absolute terms better than the final match against Bruges (a good organized side by Happel) despite scoring the winner.

    At national team level the 1976 and 1977 games against England stand out (certainly 1977, but from memory also 1976), and also the brace against Belgium in 1983 for the euro 1984 qualifier. Together with Maradona in 1986 I think it's commonly seen as the best performance Belgium conceded in the first six years of the 1980s. At least up there with the best against Pfaff.

    I haven't seen enough of him at league level or FA Cup level to make a certain statement on this. Others would be a lot better qualified I think.
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    One definite general trend seemed to be that Spanish and English sources scored attacking/midfield players higher, and German/Italian sources scored goalkeepers and perhaps defenders higher.

    I think La Liga was one of the leagues where sometimes a batch of players were appearing with some of the top ratings (but maybe Argentina and others even moreso IIRC). And probably it did seem, certainly for attacking players, that the La Liga ratings were higher in general than say Serie A (but the La Liga ratings were not shown on that site pre-04/05 I think it is, except for maybe a few random earlier years).
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Another thing, in some years more than others, is that it seems like the English ratings have more variability, wheras the Italian ones (utilising half points too) stay more in the middle in general (less 9, let alone 10 out of 10 marks awarded, but maybe less really low ones too).
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks PDG.

    This channel has many for 1970s players.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQekr-95GsvN9rRQuubXkeQ/videos
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Yesterday I watched the first 70 minutes and today the remainder (in stages) and I'd say in terms of best moments it is indeed right up there with the best of that era (1975 - 1985), but he fades considerably in the 2nd half. He was 31 years and 8 months old.



    It is an entertaining and interesting match to watch. Outstanding for Scotland (other than Dalglish) were Souness and Strachan. Alan Hansen his quality on the ball is visible, but defensively not his best (his peak is between 1979 and 1985 I'd say, before his knee problems). For Belgium the quality and positioning of Coeck stands out, and in the last 60 minutes Ceulemans which is also noticed by the commentator and co-commentator Alex Ferguson. Souness played unusually with #9 on his back. Near the end Souness draws a penalty for his team, taken by Frank Gray, which Pfaff saves.

    Youtube shows this game for Hansen


    From notes and memory also the 1981 semi final against Bayern Munich is excellent to watch, same for Souness (not for Dalglish, as he left the home match after 4 minutes, and then was not fit in the final - now looking at my notes again he did have a handful good/very good and clever/ingenious moments in the away game vs Bayern).
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    As I said, I was planning to go through some of his best and/or most significant games (often tending to a balance between both). Before I start let me say that I will naturally leave out many of the matches featuring Feyenoord, PSV, Real Madrid or Atletico Madrid (the two Madrid clubs sharing the championships between them).

    Against Feyenoord he played 25 official games in his career, had 8 goals (no pens) and at least 10 assists.

    Against PSV he played 24 official games in his career, had 11 goals (no pens) and at least 5 assists.

    Against Real Madrid he played 12 official games, scored 4 (no pens) and at least 4 assists (of which 8 games, 3 goals, 4 assists as a Barcelona player). I showed earlier in the thread a solo goal he scored against them in 1976.

    Against Atletico Madrid he played 11 official games, scored 3 (no pens) and at least 5 assists (of which 9 games, 3 goals and 5 assists as a Barcelona player).

    One might add Valencia of Kempes, Rep, Keita, Jara, (Bonhof) too where he played 8 games against with 5 goals (no pens) a minimum of 4 assists.

    Unless being of a notable significance, I'll also leave out most friendlies (for example starting with Spain national team vs Ajax of 1966 where he scored a goal in a 1-2 win).

    --------------------------

    Until 1970

    --- Ajax vs Liverpool 1966-67 (home and away - European Cup)
    * Liverpool ClubElo rank #4 to #6

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x13z09w
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x13yqmd
    (taken from long highlights, not full match)


    --- Ajax vs Real Madrid 1967-68 (home and away - European Cup)
    * Real Madrid ClubElo rank #1

    Home game vs Real Madrid
    Away game vs Real Madrid
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvl33l
    (commentator also says he had to do too much alone, and often from deep positions)


    --- Ajax vs Nuremberg 1968-69 (home - European Cup)

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1lydyi

    (not the best opponent, at the start of the season ranked #15 in ClubElo, but one of the very few early games that exist in full)

    Also notable from that 1968-69 season are the three games against Benfica (1968 finalist, lost a.e.t. at Wembley against ManUnited) and the final against AC Milan. He wasn't at his best in the final but he was pretty much the only Ajax player who created danger, and much was on his shoulders with many team mates not fit (which previews knew). He was also the only Ajax player who succesfully dribbled past opponents.


    --- Ajax vs Napoli 1969-70 (Fairs Cup)
    * Elo rank #20

    Brief highlights of the Napoli match (vs Zoff)


    --- Ajax vs Arsenal 1969-70 (Fairs Cup semi final)

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xys7g

    Most probably he was better - and more spectacular with dribbles, passes - in the other leg (only brief highlights exist, but can't find them right now) but this one is interesting in that he played like a targetman. It's an interesting variety on his game.

    Conclusion:
    There are a few more club games during the 1960s but I'm arbitrarily selective here. Roughly he had 1 goal per game during the 1960s against top 10 type of teams (something that holds when including a dozen friendlies), without penalties.


    National team until 1970

    Standing out are the games against Hungary (Elo rank #6) and the two games against England (ranked #1 both times) - looking at 'best' and significance.

    Vs Hungary (1966)
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3c425t
    (sorry for the quality, something went wrong a bit with the conversion - a lot of his creativity is visible still)

    Vs England (1969)
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x17rqvk
    (from 25 minutes highlights)

    Most probably he was (even) a notch better in the other England game (per Shoot!, per WS), but less material exists of this one. From the English press he received a lot of praise for this match.

    Vs England (1970)
    Pathe highlight reel ("Cruyff was magnificient")
    Few more scenes (20 seconds)

    Other possible options might be the matches vs East Germany (goal), Poland (assist and played well), Romania (2 goals, one of which a fine one).


    Conclusion:
    This tentatively brings me to eight highlighted games. When I find the time I'll move to 1970 - 1973, 1973 - 1978 and 1978 - 1984 next.

    The 1970 - 1973 might take a few days again, and I'll not claim it's exhaustive or complete (would be too long as well perhaps).
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For the next period I ended at many of the same. I had some reservations about the euro 76 quarter final against Belgium (two legged) but could see the point in the end since Netherlands was only minor favorites and Belgium was #12 in the Elo ranking (even higher in prior years). And four assists plus a quality goal from open play compensate a little bit.

    National team 1971 - 1977

    Vs East Germany 1971 (#7 in Elo ranking - 3 assists against them)
    Vs Peru 1972
    Vs Czechoslovakia 1972 (maybe)
    Vs Spain 1973
    Vs Poland 1973
    Vs Argentina 1974 (friendly)
    Vs Bulgaria 1974 (WC)
    Vs Sweden 1974 (WC)
    Vs Argentina 1974 (WC)
    Vs Brazil 1974 (WC - #1 in Elo at start tournament, also before the match)
    Vs Sweden 1974 (friendly - #8 in Elo)
    Vs Italy 1974
    Vs Poland 1975
    Vs Belgium 1976
    Vs Northern Ireland 1977 (George Best)
    Vs England 1977
    Vs Belgium 1977

    Think the England 1977 game is a must. The compilation on youtube leaves out a few crucial scenes as we discussed before. That said, in other footage of the same year he is physically faster and in a more powerful state (vs PSG, vs Hercules in rare PD footage).

    At continental level for his club:

    Vs Celtic 1970-71 (Celtic were actually the runaway favorites)
    Vs Atletico Madrid 1970-71
    Vs Olympique Marseille 1970-71 (top 20 ClubElo = more competitive than nowadays)
    Vs Arsenal 1971-72 ( 2nd half )
    Vs Inter 1971-72
    Vs Bayern 1972-73
    Vs Real Madrid 1972-73
    Vs Juventus 1972-73
    Vs Feyenoord 1974-75
    Vs Lazio 1975-76
    Vs Liverpool 1975-76 (2nd leg, not the first - created a goal, praise Shankley)
    Vs Bilbao 1976-77
    Vs AZ 1977-78
    Vs Ipswich Town 1977-78
    Vs Aston Villa 1977-78
    Vs PSV Eindhoven 1977-78 (#1 or #2 in ClubElo at moment of playing)

    I'd say he played individually well at his farewell 'friendly' too.

    In some cases like Olympique Marseille I'm swayed by the production too (and the quality/involvement of the play), and Ajax was only minor favorites among the bookmakers. Some footage might be rare but also therefore I created my channel back then (for example away vs Celtic - based on 30 minutes).

    This are many games (or looks so) but consider then that before the group stages were invented, he was in the top 7 for appearances all-time at European level. And top 5 for outfield players (while not available or eligible to play in 1973-74 and unable to play between 1978 to 1982). In that respect I think I didn't end up at an outrageous list.

    Also notable is the won 1977-78 cup final (in the only season he was eligible to play), where he played as defender for most of the match after Neeskens fell out with an injury. In the old Copa del Generallisimo foreigners were not eligible to play (unless nationalized), in the renamed Copa del Rey they were.
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The CSKA Sofia game was probably a bit of a punt on my behalf, but certainly his second assist of two (crucial in an away game maybe despite the eventual aggregate score - the same team beat Cruyff-less Ajax the following season I think wasn't it?) was really great, and the first had some parallels to the assist to Rexach vs Feyenoord although maybe required slightly iffy defending rather than landing straight on the attackers boot for him to volley home like with the Rexach goal.

    I thought the Poland game performance was captured well on your channel - his display IIRC being more influential and higher quality than may be immediately evident from game highlights/summary.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Do you also have tips for his earlier games or career? I had quite a bit of regard for opponent there but of course not everything is available.

    One correction though: when he retired he was joint third in all-time European appearances. And joint-second among outfield players (behind Gento). So it wasn't an outrageous list of games I think. He couldn't play in 1973-74 (first round exit) and 1978 to 1982 like I said.

    Watched yesterday most of Figueroa vs Italy in 1966, and yes I would say that given the relative lack of material (for so many players of smaller countries, especially pre-VCR era) it gives a good idea about the potential he had.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I have a feeling his best games from pre-1970 might not be available to view in full, but I think you've done a nice job putting footage on your Dailymotion page. I thought he was playing impressively vs Hungary in 1966 as such a young player, and showed his quality vs England in 1969 (I originally saw extended highlights of that one, or even the full game maybe?, on ESPN Classic).
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He did some stand-out things vs Real Madrid both in the 60s and his final Ajax season too I noticed. But yeah, whether those were really among his 'best' games for Ajax pre 1974 I'd probably doubt, and I guess not among his very best ever (if narrowing it down to less than 10 say) anyway.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks.

    For his later years I was thinking about:

    The two games he played with the Cosmos (the more so vs World XI since long highlights exist). This was well received by Onze Mondial, Shoot!, World Soccer, Sports Illustrated and others - in contrast to the game he once played with AC Milan for example (where he was heavily injured too).

    Shoot!
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jC9wYF8_VRg/TwK0p4OzdMI/AAAAAAAAFUI/MGY5H5v2Ckw/s1600/cruyff.jpg
    Sports Illustrated
    https://web.archive.org/web/2012110...vault/article/magazine/MAG1094167/1/index.htm
    Or France Football of October 1978 as shown previously:
    Show Spoiler
    October 1978 - text by Jacques Thibert.

    "Johan is magic". You can always take the opposite opinion around Stamford Bridge, the Chelsea tief, you will not convince anyone. Bronze as a Catalan, sharp as a blade of Toledo but obviously demobilized for football and its quarrels. Johan Cruyff made a jump in London last week to check if his legs still carry him to the ball. The British doctors are convinced he can. Three and a half months of anticipated retirement have not yet annihilated the 'old man'. Johan is effectively magical.
    [...]
    The great Franz Beckenbauer adds: "Everyone knows Johan has a fantastic effect on the people and players around him. He blends just so well."
    [...]
    With Barcelona's league form in tatters, doesn't he regret now leaving? "I will never forget the people not congratulating me but saying 'thank you'. That made an impression to me going beyond scoring a goal and leaving the club with the trophy they wanted to have. In principle I don't regret but I look forward to helping the club in a different way and moving things ahead. In the grand scheme of things regret doesn't overshadow the blessings."


    I don't think it is appropriate or accurate to take too many games of his American period (he was viewed and voted by the press as the best in his first two years, his third was a disappointment), but one game would be fine. Also here we're limited in material, but I'd pick the 1980 game against a better New York Cosmos. Can be seen here from 08:30 onward.
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29cki9

    Then back at Ajax and later Feyenoord again it is tempting to show the games against the foremost rivals (there is a very brief video on youtube) but standing out are the games he played against Celtic, reportedly the Belgium national team, Tottenham, Manchester United, Liverpool, AS Roma, Standard Liege. I think all of those are better picks than the 1972 Intercontinental Cup games for example (where after a vicious tackle he was way below his best, but OK maybe similar to the 1975 away game vs Poland different people can have different impressions).

    Vs Celtic (two different versions of the away match with different scenes)
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12w5zy
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1b55h3
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1b5877
    --- his team conceded a fatal goal after he had left the field after a knock on his ankle.


    Tentatively I'd say:

    1978 vs World XI (with NY Cosmos)
    1980 vs New York Cosmos
    1982-83 vs Celtic
    1983-84 vs Tottenham Hotspur
    1983-84 vs Liverpool (friendly)
    1983-84 vs Manchester United (friendly)
    1983-84 vs AS Roma (friendly)
    1983-84 vs Torino (last ever game abroad, played in Turin; assist in 1-1 match)


    Your idea? Maybe you have some very good idea here. Then after that I lump it all together and maybe also drop out a few (for example 1977 vs Ipswich, even though games like that helped to convince the British press).
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    So something as this:

    1966-67 Ajax vs Liverpool
    1967-68 Ajax vs Real Madrid
    1968-69 Ajax vs Nuremberg
    1968-69 Ajax vs Benfica
    1969-70 Ajax vs Napoli
    1969-70 Ajax vs Arsenal
    1970-71 Ajax vs Celtic
    1970-71 Ajax vs Atletico madrid
    1971-72 Ajax vs Olympique Marseille
    1971-72 Ajax vs Arsenal
    1971-72 Ajax vs Inter
    1972-73 Ajax vs Bayern Munich
    1972-73 Ajax vs Real Madrid
    1972-73 Ajax vs Juventus
    1973-74 Barcelona vs Real Madrid
    1974-75 Barcelona vs Feyenoord
    1975-76 Barcelona vs Lazio
    1975-76 Barcelona vs Real Madrid
    1975-76 Barcelona vs Liverpool
    1976-77 Barcelona vs Bilbao
    1977-78 Barcelona vs AZ
    1977-78 Barcelona vs Ipswich Town
    1977-78 Barcelona vs Aston Villa
    1977-78 Barcelona vs PSV
    1977-78 Barcelona vs Las Palmas (Copa del Rey final)
    1978 NY Cosmos vs World XI
    1978 Ajax vs Bayern Munich
    1980 Washington Diplomats vs New York Cosmos
    1982-83 Ajax vs Celtic
    1983-84 Feyenoord vs Tottenham Hotspur
    1983-84 Feyenoord vs Liverpool
    1983-84 Feyenoord vs Manchester United
    1983-84 Feyenoord vs AS Roma
    1983-84 Feyenoord vs Torino


    National team:

    Vs Hungary 1966
    Vs England 1969
    Vs England 1970
    Vs East Germany 1971
    Vs Peru 1972
    Vs Spain 1973
    Vs Poland 1973
    Vs Argentina 1974
    Vs Bulgaria 1974
    Vs Sweden 1974
    Vs Argentina 1974
    Vs Brazil 1974
    Vs Sweden 1974
    Vs Italy 1974
    Vs Poland 1975
    Vs Belgium 1976
    Vs Northern Ireland 1977
    Vs England 1977
    Vs Belgium 1977


    Difficult to be really complete with this! In some cases also ended up by being swayed what's preserved.
    It's easier to just list the top 10 opponents per country Elo or ClubElo and list the production (with friendlies or 'friendlies' listed separately).
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I did think about the Celtic away game certainly - we discussed it a while ago ofc, but he ran the game impressively from central midfield I remember. Maybe hard to say he was definitely better vs Celtic in 70/71 (the instigation of and assist for Keizer's goal key on that occasion and maybe could be given bonus points - but whether it was better than his assist for the final goal in the Final itself I'm not sure?).

    Maybe could be seen as unusual to include a world XI game (not in an overview but say a top 10) but on the other hand he was showing really good form wasn't he and if seen as 'friendly' then just as Argentina vs Rest of World in 1979 maybe it can be considered in effect a high level match. Just as the England 1977 performance was in a friendly in the days when they were maybe still thought of as a bit more like 'test matches' rather than 'practice matches' as they can be today (not to say that game was viewed quite like Hungary at Wembley in 1953 in the build-up ofc).
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thank you very much. From what I read the England 1977 game was sort of put near that Hungary 1953 category before and after the match. In any case Don Revie and also Ron Greenwood did say that it was the best performance since Hungary in 1953 (also Keegan and especially Trevor Brooking placed it in this territory). That's a debatable statement (even allowing for higher goals per game and such) but I think you're right it had the feel of a 'test match' these days, and England played anyway with their best team with (almost) all players available. IIRC also The Times perceived it as the best in a while at the end of the year.

    I'm normally not a fan of World XI type of games (for Dragan Dzajic this would be an option too by the way, as it was significant for his reputation), but given that it was one of the two games and they were obviously received very well for the play and sudden effect it had (played well - not as in 6/10 performance but like 8/10 or so) - so I listed it in the end. For a full journey through a career it is an option. He played outside the confinements of his usual team. Weighing it all I had the impression it was of greater significance or impact in the media than the 1973 game for example.

    I think Ray Hudson and Jonathan Wilson made the point of some football players being like artists those 1970s days. They came to stage, got 'tested' for their level, and showed their artistic and conceptual stock (which is not the same as "l'art pour l'art").

    Now I'll try to think about Allan Simonsen. There are a couple of matches where he's really impressive, also a few where you're struggling to see his class.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Brief thing on Dalglish again, and it is only accidental that I saw it in the morning, but that 1999 L'Equipe thing (list here) highlights the World Cup 1986 qualifiers against Spain (where he scored a goal, yes). They did that for many players, implicitly or explicitly hinting at some sort of marquee game or so.

    [​IMG]

    Pretty decent goal indeed (his last ever goal for Scotland) - at 2:50



    And of course L'Equipe highlights he belongs among the most decorated (club) players of the 20th century. 10 league titles as a player, four times runners-up. Three European Cups with Liverpool, runner-up with Liverpool in 1985 and two more European semi-finals with Celtic. Arguably not always equally instrumental in those campaigns, but a strong resume with two different clubs. Somehow less succesful in the FA Cup, but that's of smaller importance (although a more important trophy than in later decades).

    Chances are maybe small it will trump himself against Belgium in 1982 (where he was two years younger instead of 33 and 8 months), but in my enthusiasm I mention this game, still.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I have a feeling I was watching that Spain game not so very long ago (not really recently though for sure). Trouble is if I gave you my impressions they could well be buried in a very long PM with no search facility inside. I think there were good things he was doing so maybe I did even say that even though it's relatively late in his career, it's a decent to very good one for him. Maybe the commentary was in Spanish and they sounded impressed with him at times too (before the goal too of course). Not sure to what extent I felt there were some less good moments or some quiet periods without much involvement though now. Maybe on the Footballia website?

    The Belgium game is more in his prime (maybe his absolute prime at the start of 82/83 arguably, although physically it shouldn't be maybe), and would have come to mind for me but I had only seen shorter highlights, not what you have now seen yourself. Same goes for Liverpool games in that period that we discussed before.

    The Monchengladbach choice I think would likely be among his best somewhere anyway yes, and most significant definitely anyway.
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #120 PuckVanHeel, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
    So let's make a start with this.

    This channel has a few performances captured of him, also a few not so great ones (for example vs Real Madrid in 1976).

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQekr-95GsvN9rRQuubXkeQ/videos

    In contrast to a Dalglish he did take his penalties although not too many at European level (5 of his 43 goals in 71 games being penalties). At league level, in Spain and West Germany, he scored 107 goals, 9 of them penalties, in 276 games.

    I haven't seen all of him but solid to very good performances of him against opponents of a certain level came against Juventus in 1975, Bruges in 1976, Kiev in 1977, Liverpool in 1977, Red Star in 1977 (only brief highlights exist I think), Tottenham in 1982 (violent game), Standard Liege of 1982. I use now a looser standard for opponent quality as I did with previous cases (to be a bit clear).

    When looking at the finals he played, I'd place the two legs of 1979 at the bottom and 1982 at the top (both finals were however not without controversy, unlike the other two).

    League level

    At league level the thoughts go first to the primary rivals. Here, he tended to do quite well against Bayern Munich. He scored 4 goals in 12 games (no penalties) or 4 in 11 when excluding the time he wasn't a starter yet (became starter at 21 years and 5 months). His average rating in those games is 2.36, which is good for a forward.
    edit: as basic comparison, Gerd Müller (who was older though) was rated 2.67 in the same 1973 - 1979 period against Gladbach.

    Some of those moments and goals can be seen here for example


    As far as I've seen, his best performances came in the season 1975-76 and 1976-77 (I did see enough of him in his final two seasons, and it wasn't at the same level).


    He never scored a goal against Real Madrid. Not at continental level (where he indeed wasn't playing well enough) and also not domestically. That is not saying everything though, and it isn't made easier by that only two games have surfaced while being a Barcelona player.

    In the one game against Real Madrid I saw, of 1981-82, he did actually play fine and had two assists. Barcelona was without Schuster (played only 13 league games in the season, thanks to injury and ill-discipline) and the club would finish as 2nd in the league. This was their best result since 1977-78, and an upgrade from 4th and 5th places in all the other post-1978 seasons. This win against Real Madrid (without Schuster) was decisive in achieving this position.


    National team

    His career with the national team was a bit unfortunate. Often not released by his club (as a result, in the mid 1980s Soren Lerby played twice on one day), and when Denmark presented themselves in 1984, he was already 32 years old and broke sadly his leg in a tackle by Le Roux (of France, at euro 1984). By 1986 he wasn't a starter any more and made only one substitute appearance.

    What has gone into memory (and impacted his Ballon d'Or placement in this year) is the 1983 qualifier against England. This was imho clearly after his prime but yes, he had a superb pass to a young Michael Laudrup there.

    Also notable are certainly:

    20/08/1978 - Denmark vs England 3-4 [euro 1980 qualification]
    21/05/1980 - Denmark vs Spain 2-2 [friendly - Spain used it as preparation though]
    03/06/1981 - Denmark vs Italy 3-1 [World Cup 1982 qualification]
    07/09/1983 - Denmark vs France 3-1 [friendly - teammates were better but France played with all of their strongholds]
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @Vegan10

    This has to be taken with care and reservation but here is a game where actually both stars are near/in their best form.

    http://footballia.net/matches/france-bayern-munchen

    Given that you feel Falcao and Rummenigge are underserved at hindsight, which are their best or most significant games? Considering opposition and such.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here a few ideas for unmentioned players who did relatively well at the Ballon d'Or


    Raymond Kopa: vs Brazil 1958 World Cup, vs West Germany 1958 (friendly), vs Spain 1959 (friendly)

    Jurgen Klinsmann: vs Netherlands 1990 World Cup

    Raul Gonzalez: vs Barcelona 1999

    Kevin Keegan: vs Italy 1977 (qualifier), vs Borussia Monchengladbach 1977 (European Cup final)

    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: this is a difficult one, hence my question to @Vegan10. I'd go for 21/11/1979 vs Soviet Union with two goals from open play and one of his 17-18 assists for the national team. The 'best' option for semi finals or finals is probably the 1982 EC semi final, maybe.

    Bryan Robson: vs France at the 1982 World Cup? There are quite a few Robson compilations on youtube lately.
     
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  23. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I think it's often considered to be the game against Barcelona in the 1983-4 Cup Winners' Cup when they won 3-0 and Robson got 2 goals.
     
  24. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Potential one as well. I re-watched Holland-Brazil from 1974 last night and Wim van Hanegem was excellent, second best player on the field after Cruyff.
     
  25. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I’ll have to think this over. But I don’t recall great displays per se.
     

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