He was excellent in the air. Generally a prolific player as well. I think only Bobby Charlton and Lampard have scored more goals than him in the English top flight among midfielders.
They have now published the full top 100 of retired players and (as I said earlier) I personally believe the best thing to do is to compare it with players from their own team, own era and own league (even though it's controlled for various factors - the modern day data is used commercially). Plus cross-comparing it with other sources and perspectives of course. The difference with players outside the top 100 (100-200) might also be not that big or significant. For fun I take FourFourTwo's greatest club teams ever list and World Soccer their list. Keep in mind that players have occasionally also played a big chunk of their career for other clubs. Say, Sinisa Mihajlovic (and in case of Puskas, Cruijff we know their Spanish years and international games count heavily). It's intriguing to see top class managers Trapattoni and Guardiola appearing in the top 25 while they were a player. Real Madrid (1955 - 1960) Puskas (2: 214,36), Santamaria (3: 212,52), Di Stefano (15: 188,68), Zarraga (16: 187,57), Marquitos (20: 185,11), Gento (36: 179,49) Super players at a super team (400 employees at their peak; only team who was allowed to have more than 25 squad players). 121 games unbeaten at home. Started and ended with a loss against Atletico Madrid. 1960s AC Milan Trapattoni (24: 182,72) One of the few defensive players who can claim to have known the player Pelé inside-out, and consistently cancelled throughout the meetings. Leeds (1968 - 1974) Norman Hunter (93: 170,17) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Hunter_(footballer) Ajax (1965 – 1973) Cruijff (1: 216,06), Neeskens (78: 171,28) Bayern Munich (1967 - 1976) Paul Breitner (53: 174,76), Muller (95: 169,82), Beckenbauer (100: 169,48) Borussia M’gladbach (1970 - 1979) Herbert Wimmer (25: 182,31), Berti Vogts (61: 173,42) Juventus (1980 - 1986) Platini (71: 172,12) I knew he wouldn't disappoint .... the player that is. Happel his Hamburger SV (early 80s) Magath (67: 172,30) Like Van Hanegem and Vandereycken before him, Magath was an on-field extension of the coach Happel. 1980s Bayern Munich Wolfgang Kraus (31: 181,42), Dieter Hoeness (39: 179,05), Hans Pflugler (43: 177,44), Lothar Matthaus (48: 175,40), Paul Breitner (53: 174,76) Real Madrid (1984 - 1990) Hugo Sanchez (63: 173, 11), Butragueno (76: 171,42) Ronald Koeman has said various times that Hugo Sanchez was the toughest (direct) opponent he has played against in his career. Mid 1980s Everton Gary Stevens (26: 182,28) Rehhagel his Werder Bremen (1980s to 1995) Thomas Schaaf (28: 181,91), Neubarth (33: 181,13), Ulrich Borowka (52: 175,02) Not an unexpected outcome, perhaps. No nonsense defensive players on top. PSV Eindhoven (1985 - 1989) Ivan Nielsen (6: 200,20), Lerby (12: 190,14), Vanenburg (42: 177,76), Gullit (81: 171,03), Heintze (85: 170,53) Man marker Ivan Nielsen was vital for the Danish Dynamite, and indeed nigh impossible to properly replace for them. AC Milan (1987 – 1991) Frank Rijkaard (9: 195,57), Van Basten (11: 193,93), Gullit (81: 171,03) Barcelona (1988 - 1994) 'Dream Team' Guardiola (14: 189,31), Stoichkov (59: 173,65), Sergi (70: 172, 13) Stoichkov provided an irreplaceable pace and depth in the attack, next to the goals and assists. Red Star Belgrade late 80s to early 90s Mihajlovic (47: 175,87) After this an integral part of various Serie A teams. Ajax (1992 - 1996) Ronald de Boer (8: 198,29), Danny Blind (13: 189,31), Overmars (21: 185,00), Litmanen (23: 183,83), Frank de Boer (27: 181,94), Finidi George (41: 178,24) This vindicates Louis van Gaal his recent call when he named Ronald de Boer among the five best professionals he has worked with. Overmars his position is influenced by what he did later at Arsenal and Barcelona (compared with not playing) but I didn't check all players. It came along with setting some European records (at European Cup) at the time. Mid 90s Blackburn Rovers Chris Sutton (90: 170,40) 1990s to early 00s Deportivo la Coruna ('Super Depor') Miroslav Dukic (77: 171,37) Only foreigner of Super Depor to win Don Balon award. Manchester United (1995 – 2001) Paul Scholes (35: 180,33), Gary Neville (56: 174,06), Solskjaer (62: 173,32) Solksjaer hanging around for so long while not representing "value in the market" (Ferguson his own words) had perhaps a reason. AC Milan (2002 - 2007) Cafu (54: 174,70), Inzaghi (96: 169,80) Arsenal early 00s ('Invincibles') Dennis Bergkamp (29: 181,59), Lauren (60: 173,63), Gilberto Silva (80: 171,08), Vieira (86: 170,49) See: http://www.goalimpact.com/2014/12/todays-chelsea-fc-against-arsenals.html Real Madrid 'Galacticos' Ronaldo (17: 186,70), Luis Figo (72: 172,04), Hierro (79: 171,08) Also when limited to 1996-2005 he, Guardiola and Bergkamp appear to stand out well. FC Barcelona (2003 - 2006) Deco (46: 175,90) The creative midfielder of that team with finesse and grit. Some pundits saw him indeed as the 'true' offensive centerpiece of the team. Chelsea (2003 - 2007) Makelele (57: 174,05) A specific role or position named after him is maybe not a coincidence, even if he wasn't the first to execute it in football (Desailly). It supports what Mourinho and others thought of him. He took the league by storm. Other teams mentioned by FFT: Arsenal (1930 - 1935), River Plate 1941-1947, Torino (1945 – 1949), Wolverhampton (1953 - 1960), Santos (1955 – 1968), Benfica (1959 – 1968), Tottenham (1960 - 1961), Inter Milan (1962 – 1967), Celtic (1965 – 1974), Estudiantes (1967 - 1971), Feyenoord (1968 - 1971) Independiente (1971 – 1975), Liverpool (1975 – 1984) Nottingham Forest (1977 – 1980), Flamengo (1980 - 1983), Dynamo Kiev (1985 – 1987), Marseille (1988 - 1993), Juventus (1994 - 1998), Boca Juniors (1998 – 2003) Quite a few probably suffer from limited data availability (including Marseille and earlier English teams), while with other teams as Juventus, perhaps Herrera's Inter Milan, it is likely to think other factors besides the individual players were 'influential' (or at least mitigate effects). Keep in mind though that this are perhaps gaps and it would at least interesting to see which squad members stand out. Maybe some of them are in the 100-200 range anyway, which cannot be too far off from place #90 or so. Other interesting names: Henrik Larsson (various clubs and leagues: #10 194,93), Yasuhiko Okudera (Koln, Werder Bremen: #22 184,40), Roberto di Matteo (#30 181,42), Andreas Moller (#38 179,15), Toninho Cerezo (#45 176,06), Wolfgang Weber (Koln: #49 175,30), Dragan Holcer (Hajduk, Stuttgart, Schalke: #68 172,20), Pavel Nedved (#55 174,26), Jens Nowotny (Leverkusen: #58 173,99), Jan Molby (Liverpool: #64 172,96), Giovane Elber (#65 172,36), Bum Kun Cha (Frankfurt, Leverkusen: #73 171,72), Frans Thijssen (Ipswich Town: #83 170,87), Wolfgang Overath (Fc Koln: #84 170,76) Feel free to give feedback.
Sorry for the very belated addition but I'm just seeing now the difference between #100 and #260 is indeed just 8 points. It's still interesting even though there's no final answer (a definite answer - that goes further than just the average/general tendencies for fatigue and substitution effect) to how many penalty points substitutions should get, for example.
I remembered this subject with these three good posts (read above) and I accidentally came across a profile of him:
I'm done with my Top : ''FYT's 125 Greatest Footballers'' here. I post it here since it's more about rankings in itself while the other thread is more about discussing a bit of eveything (which is not a complaint). 1. Messi 2. Pelé 3. Maradona 4. Cruyff 5. Platini 6. Di Stéfano 7. Ronaldo 8. Zidane 9. Puskas 10. Beckenbauer 11. Van Basten 12. Gullit 13. C. Ronaldo 14. Eusébio 15. Zico 16. Ronaldinho 17. Rivaldo 18. Romario 19. Rummenigge 20. Garrincha 21. Tostao 22. Kopa 23. Didi 24. Laudrup M. 25. Zizinho 26. Kubala 27. Moreno 28. Rivelino 29. Rivera 30. Suarez (Spa) 31. Sarosi 32. Meazza 33. Charlton 34. Sindelar 35. Best 36. Baggio 37. Sivori 38. Bergkamp 39. Müller 40. Iniesta 41. Socrates 42. Kaka 43. Schiaffino 44. Keegan 45. Schuster 46. Weah 47. Henry 48. Leônidas 49. Friedenreich 50. Ben Barek 51. Scarone 52. Jairzinho 53. Kempes 54. Dzajic 55. Simonsen 56. Blokhin 57. Shevchenko 58. Totti 59. Del Piero 60. Albert 61. Hidegkuti 62. Streltsov 63. Gerson 64. Mazzola S. 65. Susic 66. Pedernera 67. Falcao 68. Matthaüs 69. Xavi 70. Pirlo 71. Netzer 72. Mazzola V. 73. Gren 74. Stojkovic 75. Riquelme 76. Cubillas 77. Raul 78. Neymar 79. Suarez (Uru) 80. Andrade 81. Francescoli 82. Dalglish 83. Figo 84. Hagi 85. Deyna 86. Julinho 87. Finney 88. Stoichkov 89. Careca 90. Kocsis 91. Charles 92. Nedved 93. Savicevic 94. Neeskens 95. Giresse 96. Breitner 97. Tigana 98. Cerezo 99. Bozsik 100. Matthews 101. Piendibene 102. Rensenbrink 103. Robben 104. Ballack 105. Ibrahimovic 106. Seeler 107. Walter 108. Bobek 109. Junior 110. Ferrari 111. Ademir 112. Jaïr 113. Overath 114. Van Hanegem 115. Erico 116. Bebeto 117. Orsi 118. Butragueño 119. Seedorf 120. Hamrin 121. Gento 122. Fontaine 123. Riva 124. Bettega 125. Varallo
Really nice work with the write-ups on your page mate - that adds a nice and informative touch. Possibly at some stage I could see how your top 50 would change things in terms of the voting and points, but in theory maybe I should find and change my latest vote, and I guess others could have appeared or other voters might change their lists again too. I guess you feel that while the roles of defensive players are crucial and there have been some outstanding ones, that over football's history it has been the attacking and midfield players who have proved the best and most valuable at any given time....and that 125 isn't so many really so that you are still naming brilliant legends at the end of the list. Some of your players were partially (role and/or position during career) defenders though anyway.
Nice descriptions and thoughts mate. Yes, I remember you did something like that before (but not as considered perhaps) http://www.xtratime.org/forum/8295154-post261.html It are the descriptions and ideas that make it nice.
@PDG1978 @PuckVanHeel Thanks mates. About your remarks, PDG1978, in brief : exactly. PvH : I remembered also a bit about that post on xt... but did not checked it. Indeed, that was a quick post and I see that it was in 2010... I did not have the internet since a very long time back then and actually, I never cared about ranking players before that (so before having the internet and access to all of that). In the mags it was rarer to find such things back in the day and when it happened I guess that I did not mind much about the exact order in the lists, indeed. Here a bit more though. And yes @ PDG, fantastic work that you have completed here within this thread. I understand well that your work with this thread was finished at some point (and that's some years). But then it would be obviously very interesting to follow if it's continued. The next World Cup which will soon arrive will be interesting in that regard too ofc.
That second rep I just gave is in effect also to rep and commend again the profiles written on the webpage; I had a look a bit more closely since my other post and think the story and qualities of various players can be clearly understood from many of the write-ups.
To answer the question you bring up (searched for '?' to see whether there are others). "Bergkamp make a move to Inter Milan (did he take the train or a car or something else to join Italy ? Good question.)." This is something that originated when there was a bomb threat or terror threat during the 1994 World Cup. Someone (jokingly?) suggested he could blow up the airplane, and it scared the Americans (as well as Dennis too, as we knew later). The more mysterious it is, that he played fairly well against Brazil and scored a quality goal against them (as you write) after this scare. He later said, had it happened before the tournament, he wouldn't be there in the USA "like Johan in 1978".... Good descriptions for many/all of the players I have seen so far (also Keegan I see) and very good pointing out he was quite fast in the first half of the 1990s (think the 1994-95 injuries changed it). Besides, this is an interesting channel "Functional Soccer Skills", that includes some of the lesser players (lesser in highlights). It's without sound, so that the movements come to the fore. I will read your piece in totality later!!
Yes I was surprised by this too (higher than usual, and I wouldn't place him in a top 40). But it is at least consistent with wm442433 leaving out defensive players Maldini, Baresi and Rijkaard (see PDG & wm comments above). This gives more weight to the remaining players somehow, who gave the spark to bring Milan to the top. From previous comments by him I already knew that he felt (and magazines felt, in his perception) that Maldini, Baresi and later Desailly resorted to too many fouls and errors around ~1995. In his lengthy discussion of Weah back then, who is indeed rated highly here too. Many other Milan icons Rivera, Schiaffino, Shevchenko, Kaka etc. feature in this article. Regardless of the placements, very well done and eventually I'll read it all!
That said however (something wm442433 doesn't mention, and with focus on the football understandable), I do recognize Guerin Sportivo their point that Ruud was the first black European to lift a big trophy as captain, and also the first black European (that is: born and raised in Europe, so not Eusebio, Coluna nevermind how good they were - even though Gullit his mother is white) to be seen as the world's best - leaving aside whether that's right or wrong. That is a landmark moment, and today needed more than ever.... (Can I say??)
One more time, thanks for the feedbacks. I don't remember what I have posted exactly on that matter (I'll chek later). Let's continue on this via PM maybe? Also I 'd have some more precisions to ask to you about Bergkamp (next week maybe?). . . . Yes, I'd have him lower finally... 1225th!
OK, for now (very brief search) found back this about the situation of around 1995 (post 1993 anyway). "Maldini who for my part was downgrading in 95, 96, was less good than before. Still an examplary player with both Milan and the Nazionale, making all his possible to keep the appearances but less performant, with uncomfortable situations in his two teams. [...] Of course, at the time, we could not know that he would have this fantastic "second career", but Maldini was downgrading in '96." ------------------------------------- "The problem with that match against Milan is that Milan had bought Weah (I mean the transfer was done) before the semi-finals (also Ricardo played injured, PSG had really no chance to make the final). About assists, it was not much the game of Weah in France but the stuff is that he always held 1 or 2 defenders as the opponents were aware of anything could happen with him. So he was a excellent pivot in one sense, at least he was a constant menace (even if he "choosed his games"). One of the most skilled players ever imo that said. One of the few who can compare with Pelé in some gestures. Or Eusébio, but faster (25 years later, well). He was very powerful too. Also I don't know the exact number, but on his 18 goals in D1 with Monaco (in 90-91?) I wonder if it's not 10-12 that are headers. There was a video of his 18 goals, but can't find it again. These PSG-Milan, Milan-PSG , the pre-matches were a bit special. Probably Milan was superior but with that transfer it was over before the start for PSG. And out of the fact that Ricardo was injured, Baresi could make every fouls he wanted without being worried by the referee (as usual) too. But that's another story." So I thought in terms of logical reasoning it made a bit sense, combined with that e.g. Maldini, Nesta, Baresi, Rijkaard, Desailly are left out too in your 125 (saw your funny remark about Stanley Matthews on 100!). That in turn gives more weight to remaining Milan strongholds, with some winks and smiles, including Savicevic and other included Milan icons indeed. And of course (which is implied/said at some places) that defending with numbers (including the likes of Desailly as protection, and taking blame when out of position) is 'easier' than defending with few and with large spaces.
OK (yes about Maldini I think that it was before all in his head since Milan now relied more on the exploits of Weah, Baggio, Savicevic so at least one had to be on his day VS the tactically dominant team that they used to be, this even ''independently'', if we want, of the Dutch trio + no Sacchi anymore but it's the same idea + Baresi arriving at an end so Maldini maybe felt a bit alone and had to take more responsabilities, maybe too much suddenly, including in Nt... I'm quite sure that he already explained that himself btw, already a bit at the time and also once he had retired. In his own words it would be clearer surely and the definitive proof of what was his state of mind at this time. I'll try to find what I can find and I'll PM it if you want).
@wm442433 Yes I have now read it all and it is very well done, and the basic ideas/gest can be understood from it after reading in totality. Also that 125 players is not many anyway. As an addition (not correction): you mention Gullit won the 1997 FA Cup final as player-manager but did not select himself to play in the final, and that is right. As the 1996-97 season review (the video) says, he suffered an ankle injury, tackle from behind, that effectively ended his playing career immediately. On top of that, he found it more difficult to combine both tasks while playing. The 1995-96 review shows some fierce tackles that went unpunished (no yellow). Here the ankle injury is mentioned (damaged ligaments): http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-break-up-blues-for-ward-and-sturridge-1270755.html https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gullit-gets-mandela-invite-1.62968 I can sort of get why that ~1997-ish Chelsea period is still remembered because the foreign invasion brought a breath of fresh air and you can see the players enjoyed what they were doing (without 'acting' their joy imho, you can see the fresh vibrancy somehow). Also interesting that you see Weah as the last great African player rather than the beginning... Nice article.
I thought I'd belatedly correct this post, even though I've mentioned the book briefly on other threads with the correct author (Peterhrt knows the book too I remember). It was David Brooks, not David Lacey (who writes for the Guardian and did make some all-time selections for England and the world which are on the englandfootballonline (or similarly named) website as well as the detailed results of World Soccer's Player of the Century voting and some old England match summaries etc). So, copying and pasting, and since I've thought about it, adding what my own retrospective list would look like approximately if going back in time to end of 2001, start of 2002 kind of time (and leaning mostly to peak, with emphasis also on tournaments, but still a little towards longevity and obviously consistency - and obviously as he did I'm trying to include and give credit to older players even if makes comparisons and positions a bit less reliable of course): From David Brooks's book The All-Time World Cup (if anything I'm advertsing for him!): 1) Pele (Brazil) - Pele 2) Diego Maradona (Argentina) - Johan Cruyff 3) Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina/Spain/Colombia) - Diego Maradona 4) Franz Beckenbauer (West Germany - Germany) - Michel Platini 5) Johan Cruyff (Holland) - Alfredo Di Stefano 6) Ferenc Puskas (Hungary) - Franz Beckenbauer 7) George Best (Northern Ireland) - George Best 8) Garrincha (Brazil) - Marco van Basten 9) Michel Platini (France) - Eusebio 10) Bobby Charlton (England) - Ferenc Puskas 11) Lev Yashin (Russia - Soviet Union) - Bobby Charlton 12) Gerd Muller (West Germany - Germany) - Zinedine Zidane 13) Eusebio (Portugal) - Zico 14) Juan Schiaffino (Uruguay/Italy) - Franco Baresi 15) Bobby Moore (England) - Ronaldo 16) Didi (Brazil) - Bobby Moore 17) Johan Neeskens (Holland) - Michael Laudrup 18) Lothar Matthaus (West Germany - Germany) - Gerd Muller 19) Franco Baresi (Italy) - Luis Figo 20) Luis Monti (Argentina/Italy) - Lev Yashin 21) Obdulio Varela (Uruguay) - Garrincha 22) Zinedine Zidane (France) - Roberto Baggio 23) Stanley Matthews (England) - Kenny Dalglish 24) Paolo Maldini (Italy) - Gianni Rivera 25) Giussepe Meazza (Italy) - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 26) Marco van Basten (Holland) - Lothar Matthaus 27) Daniel Passarella (Argentina) - Tom Finney 28) Ruud Gullit (Holland) - Ruud Gullit 29) Carlos Alberto (Brazil) - Stanley Matthews 30) Jose Leandro Andrade (Uruguay) - Guissepe Meazza 31) Denis Law (Scotland) - Johan Neeskens 32) Matthias Sindelar (Austria) - Dejan Savicevic 33) Jose Nasazzi (Uruguay) - Juan Schiaffino 34) Marcel Desailly (France) - Dennis Bergkamp 35) Ademir (Brazil) - Paolo Maldini 36) Nilton Santos (Brazil) - George Weah 37) Gordon Banks (England) - Gheorghe Hagi 38) Gerson (Brazil) - Jurgen Klinsmann 39) Zico (Brazil) - Andriy Shevchenko 40) Ernst Ocwirk (Austria) - Romario 41) Helmut Rahn (West Germany - Germany) - Cafu 42) Silvio Piola (Italy) - Peter Schmeichel 43) Romario (Brazil) - Dragan Dzajic 44) Giacinto Facchetti (Italy) - Frank Rijkaard 45) Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (West Germany - Germany) - Francesco Totti 46) Dino Zoff (Italy) - Raymond Kopa 47) Kazimierz Deyna (Poland) - Jairzinho 48) Gheorghe Hagi (Romania) - Gordon Banks 49) Francisco Gento (Spain) - Eric Cantona 50) Albert Shesternev (Russia - Soviet Union) - Duncan Edwards 51) Sandor Kocsis (Hungary) - Raul 52) Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden) - Mario Kempes 53) Ricardo Zamora (Spain) - Socrates 54) Raymond Kopa (France) - Roberto Rivelino 55) Roberto Baggio (Italy) - Fernando Redondo 56) Rivaldo (Brazil) - Just Fontaine 57) Germano (Portugal) - Robert Pires 58) Jozsef Bozsik (Hungary) - Gary Lineker 59) Luis Figo (Portugal) - Didi 60) Frank Rijkaard (Holland) - Nandor Hidegkuti 61) Jurgen Klinsmann (West Germany - Germany) - Jimmy Greaves 62) Mario Kempes (Argentina) - Carlos Alberto 63) Ronaldo (Brazil) - Gaetano Scirea 64) Luis Suarez (Spain) - David Beckham 65) Roberto Rivelino (Brazil) - Glenn Hoddle 66) Mario Zagallo (Brazil) - Ruud Krol 67) Kenny Dalglish (Scotland) - Brian Laudrup 68) Dragoslav Sekularec (Yugoslavia) - Patrick Vieira 69) Mario Coluna (Portugal) - Ryan Giggs 70) Wolfgang Overath (West Germany - Germany) - Lazslo Kubala 71) Ruud Krol (Holland) - Rivaldo 72) Fritz Walter (West Germany - Germany) - Matthias Sammer 73) Frantisek Planicka (Czech Republic - Czechoslovakia) - Gabriel Batistuta 74) Silvio Marzolini (Argentina) - Tostao 75) Gianni Rivera (Italy) - Kazimierz Deyna 76) Elias Figueroa (Chile) - John Charles 77) Florian Albert (Hungary) - Nils Liedholm 78) Kurt Hamrin (Sweden) - Denis Law 79) Josef Masopust (Czech Republic - Czechoslovakia) - Florian Albert 80) Hector Scarone (Uruguay) - Jean Tigana 81) Oldrich Nejedly (Czech Republic - Czechoslovakia) - Gerson 82) Gabriel Batistuta (Argentina) - Jozsef Bozsik 83) Gzregorz Lato (Poland) - Rob Rensenbrink 84) Wim van Hanegem (Holland) - Sandor Kocsis 85) Teofilo Cubillas (Peru) - Rui Costa 86) Marco Tardelli (Italy) - Paulo Roberto Falcao 87) Duncan Edwards (England) - Teofilo Cubillas 88) Alex James (Scotland) - Paolo Rossi 89) Uwe Seeler (West Germany - Germany) - Jan Ceulemans 90) Jairzinho (Brazil) - Paul Gascoigne 91) Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia) - Gyorgy Sarosi 92) Gary Lineker (England) - John Robertson 93) Paul van Himst (Belgium) - Matthias Sindelar 94) Zoltan Czibor (Hungary) - Sandro Mazzola 95) Just Fontaine (France) - Zizinho 96) Gaetano Scirea (Italy) - Jose Manuel Moreno 97) Victor Rodriguez Andrade (Uruguay) - Pierre Littbarski 98) John Charles (Wales) - Enzo Scifo 99) Roy Keane (Republic of Ireland) - Silvio Piola 100) Bernd Schuster (West Germany - Germany) - Josef Bican
My top 50 1.)Pele 2.)Lionel Messi 3.)Diego Maradona 4.)Johan Cruyff 5.)Alfredo Di Stefano 6.)Cristiano Ronaldo 7.)Giuseppe meazza 8.)ferenc puskas 9.)Franz becenbaur 10.) zico 11.) Eusebio 12.)ronaldo el fenomeno 13.)michel Platini 14.)Gerd muller 15.)zinedine Zidane 16.)Marco Van basten 17.)garrincha 18.)Ruud Gullit 19.)roberto Baggio 20.)Daniel passarella 21.)Bobby Charlton 22.)Lev Yashin 23.)Romario 24.)George best 25.)Ronaldinho gaucho 26.)Paolo Maldini 27.)Didi 28.)lothar Matthaus 29.)Xavi Hernandez 30.)Franco Baresi 31.)sandro kocsis 32.)gheorghe hagi 33.)frank rijkaard 34.)Zizinho 35.)rivaldo 36.)Luis Suarez (60s) 37.) Falcao (80s) 38.)Thierry Henry 39.)Gigi Buffon 40.)karl Heinz rumminge 41.)dejan savicevic 42.)Zbigniew Boniek 43.)Bobby Moore 44.)Hristo Stoichkov 45.)Luis figo 46.)Francisco totti 47.)Zoltán Czibor 48.)Kaka 49.)Neymar junior 50.)Andrés iniesta
Actually after some consideration I’ll swap Francisco totti at 46 with Arjen-Robben. Totti maybe a more cerebral player but robben is undoubtedly the better match winner,with a much higher peak as one of the very best players In Europe during his peak. Without injuries(5-6 full elite seasons) robben would probably in the 21-27 range.
Thanks for the vote mate - I know you've been around on the forum a while now and nice to see you've got into the topic enough to make your attempt. The overall tallying of votes did sort of stop a while ago now (I think yours won't be the only one not added on IIRC - wm's nice list complete with write-ups also hasn't been used to go back and adjust the scores for example I don't think) but no problem for you to add your take here for others to look at.
As it's relatively quick to do though (and based on up-to-date votes rather than tallying things from up to 9 years ago) here, based on my latest idea for my own 50 (accounting for a slight shift towards considering longevity a bit more for example, as compared to what I initially was doing...although still not a lot compared to how much some factored it in I would think), is a Carlito-PDG combined top 50! 1 - Pele 2 - Johan Cruyff (based on higher highest placing) 3 - Diego Maradona 4 - Alfredo Di Stefano 5 - Lionel Messi 6 - Franz Beckenbauer 7 - Michel Platini 8 - Ferenc Puskas 9 - Eusebio 10 - Cristiano Ronaldo 11 - Marco van Basten 12 - Zico 13 - Zinedine Zidane 14 - Ronaldo 15 - George Best 16 - Bobby Charlton 17 - Gerd Muller 18 - Garrincha 19 - Lev Yashin 20 - Giussepe Meazza 21 - Roberto Baggio 22 - Franco Baresi 23 - Ruud Gullit 24 - Ronaldinho 25 - Lothar Matthaus 26 - Bobby Moore 27 - Paolo Maldini 28 - Luis Figo 29 - Romario 30 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 31 - Michael Laudrup 32 - Thierry Henry 33 - Daniel Passarella 34 - Gheorghe Hagi 35 - Kenny Dalglish 36 - Didi 37 - Gianni Rivera 38 - Dejan Savicevic 39 - Tom Finney 40 - Xavi 41 - Stanley Matthews 42 - Sandor Kocsis 43 - Frank Rijkaard 44 - Zizinho 45 - Rivaldo 46 - Johan Neeskens 47 - Juan Schiaffino 48 - Luis Suarez Miramontes 49 - Paolo Roberto Falcao 50 - Dennis Bergkamp EDIT - Not looking for any arguments or back and forth analysis of reasoning, I've got to say though mate (not to say you intended it, but just pre-empting the possibility), and anyway our differences are already factored in by the calculations to arrive at a compromise for both of us! So I hope since I've been 'nice' enough to make the effort to show the list then you'll be nice enough to respect my wishes on that. Thanks!
@PDG1978 Just a brief observation but why does meazza not make a lot of contemporary top 10 all time lists? Isn’t meazza a 1930s version of cruyff albeit more prolific(with more international success) Lack of footage shouldn’t be an excuse for underrating him(not saying you necessarily are) He was described by many who saw him as being an even more graceful and aesthetically pleasing player than Pele,with goat tier technical capabilities.
I think the footage thing is a big issue probably (not just for him). Rightly or wrongly I did make an exception for him in my own list to be honest; able to see some highlights footage at least and convincing sort of testimony, persuading me to place him comfortably within the top 50 I'm currently 'settled on' and meaning that he gets in our combined top 20. The counter view sometimes offered by people (including on Xtratime I believe) is that it wasn't always clear in his time that he was the best around (in European football; comparing to slightly later South American legends is also even trickier as it doesn't seem like that was done so much at the time even from what I understand). I think you probably saw the link I posted to his PES stats page which is certainly interesting, with some good info posted by someone whose relatives watched him IIRC.
Re: Cruyff, I suppose based on what footage/description I have seen then it's not enough to convince Meazza was really quite that good. And Cruyff does tend to get a higher recognition, even going back to votes from times when people who watched Meazza could participate (see Puck's 1981 Placar thread for example), not to say that they were the only ones participating of course and not to say nobody placed Meazza ahead, or in an all-time XI selection that didn't contain Cruyff also (IIRC there are occasional instances of that).