Given the outcome of the Bosman ruling, wouldn't arbitrarily setting a wage limit be a potential violation of worker's rights? Personally I'd be all for it, because it makes sense in terms of competitive sports and we're hardly talking sums that would leave anyone destitute (it might even spread the wealth a bit), but I can see claims that players are being prevented from obtaining a true market value salary. Very good call on the motivation for a breakaway league.
Yes. I think I've said before that the Bosman ruling hurt lower division clubs because instead of developing players and selling them on we end up with lower division journeymen. Last season Notts signed 20 players including loan spells. We've signed 11 so far this season, and there'll probably be some more before the transfer window closes.
I'm not going to claim any expertise in European labor law but I'd be curious about this angle, seeing as this move likely wouldn't decrease the number of jobs nor places any jobs into an at-risk level of incomes. To wit: This is highly subjective, because the value of the player varies from club to club and the need at that time. Few would contend that Dembele is worth what Barcelona paid for him, for instance. If they wish to claim this then they need to be subject to wage reversals when their quality of play fails to deliver, no? Yes, I know this is all rhetorical. Would enjoy going off on that concept but that's another thread.
According to this, Rugby Union & League and County cricket in England have a salary cap. The last is news to me: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/salary-cap/ Of course, these are all leagues where there is way less money sloshing around.
Sorry, but your missing the point. It is a proposal in progress for the European Cie to decide on, because it infringes the rights of private businesses. The European Parliament has the right to curb certain rights, when a greater good is served. I also posted that the European Court of Justice has the final word if such an arrangement is brought to trial to sentence a verdict whether that "greater cause" is justification enough to curb those rights.
This has nothing to do with pro/rel but does touch on a couple of hot topics in this thread. I'm currently sitting in a stadium watching warmups for a game between an MLS2 squad, Sounders 2, and the hated Tulsa Roughnecks.
Surprised no one has posted this.. a UCLA law professor did a white paper on the likehood of the Miami/Stockdale arbitration request to CAS.. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3028212 The cliff notes version is that he doesn't think CAS will take up the arbitration request and that even if they do, CAS isn't likely to rule in their favor..
Roughnecks are generically manual laborers but specifically oil field workers. Rednecks don't necessarily have a job.
Amusingly, the guy who owns tulsaroughnecks.com hates this version of the Tulsa Roughnecks. Considering his idea of an NASL tribute is like a GeoCities site had a partial-birth abortion, I think the USL club is better off without him.
FC Cincinnati isn't the last team in the world you'd point to as needing or wanting pro/rel...but they're up there with Seattle and Portland.
I'm amenable to the notion that pro/rel might be a better system for professionals to develop in. My problem with pro/rel is the fiscal and structural realities of professional soccer in the here and now. In 21st century USA, I don't know if it's possible to set back the clock and make it happen. I'm not 100% sure Marsch is right; but neither am I 100% sure he's wrong.
FC Cincinatti has never played in an open system. It has never climbed any "ladder" or "pyramid". It was born 2 years ago and immediately obtained entry to a closed league, with a current USSF "Division 2" grading. Its attendance average for 2017 currently stands at 20,583. As far as I know, with the exception of Germany, that would put them above average in every single second tier in the world. In many (probably most) cases, massively so. In many cases, they would be above average in the top flight. They have a strong following and ambitious ownership. All of this happened... sans pro/rel. In fact, in the modern age (barring a Rangers "Newco" scenario), can we point to any other system that has been able to pull 20k+ to a team in its second year? Now consider that FC Cincinatti finished 3rd in their conference last season and are currently 8th. As we often see with Cinderella runs in domestic cup competitions, that form doesn't mirror the league campaign. Now I'm more than familiar with the arguments that if pro/rel were on the line, they might be signing better players and performing better in USL, but then again, presumably so would their competitors. The fact remains that all things being equal, this is certainly not a team that would be moving up based on their current performances on the field of play. They are however, in strong contention to move to a D1 league via expansion, based largely on fan base, ambition and capacity to run a viable, competitive MLS club. Aside from the "it would be nice if this team with its fairy tale cup run and awesome fans could get promoted" sentiment, how is this a case for pro/rel?
I was just posting the link. FWIW, I think he very nearly undermines his own point before he even makes it by talking about all the coaching changes and accountability in MLS in regards to how the balance of power has shifted from West to East.
Indeed. I was responding to Marsch's points more than you. Agreed on the power shift. Of course, after years of raging about Hauptmann, I don't see anybody racing to acknowledge the strong and ambitious building job that the Fire did this year. They've done well with both the DP signings and the roster in general. Look no further than that midfield. Schweini is obvious but both McCarty and Juninho are as good as non-DPs get in MLS. I've long credited Juninho with being an unsung hero of the Galaxy's most recent dominant spell. In fairness, David Beckham did acknowledge it, but the difference in that midfield when he wasn't playing, was night and day. Shit... what am I doing... I almost turned this into a soccer conversation... So yeah... Hauptmann might not always have been a great owner, but this season's roster throws into question the accusations that he simply doesn't care and that his apathy was fostered by the closed system.
Similarly, Toronto comes to mind. Their years of playoff futility were clearly not the result of ownership not caring, seeing as, IIRC, their payroll has been top-3 in the league in every year of their existence.
So was just listening to a podcast called produced by the "The Anfield Wrap". If you don't know it's a website for Liverpool supporters which produces content, mostly articles, and podcasts, geared towards Liverpool fans, although some of the content does include a wider angle, including a show dedicated to the lower leagues. Which in itself is interesting but not the main point. My main point was they were interviewing a Sunderland fan, and the question was raised whether the Sunderland supporter was actually preferring life in the championship over the premier league. His answered was rather nuanced. He pointed out that Sunderland had as recently as three years ago been a mid-table side, and really enjoyed those seasons because he saw his team against the best. BUT he was actually enjoying this season more than he had the last two seasons and said the Championship felt "like a breath of fresh air" for him and a lot of his mates. The main reasons were... The pressure was off, they could just go to the match and enjoy the football with out stressing about where every last point was going to come from. Some of the bandwagon fans were gone so there was generally less moaning in the crowd and more support. And just a freshness to the schedule, seeing new teams, new players, traveling to different aways. Now I am not trying to say this ends the debate and we should introduce pro/rel because one Sunderland fan is kind of enjoying relegation. Just wanted to post it to bring a little more context to the debate. That's all.
Couldn't this just be the result of Sunderland now being one of the better teams in the Championship? If they were to interview a fan of a team that has spent the last 2 seasons at the bottom of the Championship's table, would their experience be the same as the Sunderland fan's experience the previous 2 years? How about if they were to jump back into history and interview a Sunderland fan during their middle of the table period.. Would that fan give up the middle of the table life in the Premier League for this top of the table life in the Championship? For the "main reasons" I left in my cut, those can largely be explained by the fact that the team is getting better results than they have in the last 2 seasons. Is this experience any different than that of a Toronto FC fan, who were bottom dwellers in MLS up until 2-3 seasons ago when they turned things around and are now at the top of the table.. Even the playing new teams can be recreated in a closed league. In the NFL, teams don't play every other team in the league. The only teams they play every season, are the ones in their division. Every other team in the league is on a rotation based on where they finished in their divisional standings and which divisions they are in..
I think that is very much part of the reason, but that is generally going to be the case that a newly relegated team should on paper be one of the better teams in the lower division. As for the team at the bottom of the championship, sure nobody likes to see there team lose, but if you have winners you have losers so that's going to happen. One of the points of this is just to highlight that relegation isn't the "OH MY GOD" the world is ending that some people make it out to be. He actually answered that and specifically said he preferred to watch Sunderland midtable in the prem over watching them in the championship. He liked seeing his club against the best, and got to see some of the best players in the world come to the Stadium of Light. So not trying to say for one second most fans want to be relegated, just that there are some silver linings, and in some cases the silver lining can actually be brighter than the darkness of the cloud. Of course fans like seeing there teams win. And the sooner that happens the happier they generally are. This is very true as well. But I wasn't really posting the previous to say everything about pro/rel is better than closed. I was simply posting it to bring some context to the arguments around how terrible it is to be relegated.[/quote][/QUOTE]