I'm really new. Five games of experience and hundreds of games in coaching. I've noticed something this past weekend that I really have to ask you all about. I coached our U14 club team at 3PM and there were two PKs given one for and one against, and no yellow cards were given, both were for UB. Then, I AR a match and the CR gave two PKs (U14) and no yellow cards, both were UB, tripping and the like. I gave three PKs in my next match at CR and gave yellow for each (tripping, pushing, pulling) and you'd have thought I'd slapped a kid with the parent reaction (coaches had no issue with it, surprisingly). My third match was at AR and a PK was given for tripping, no YC given. I get that kids are sloppy and body control is an issue and nobody wants to RC a 10/11/12 year old, least of all me. But I also feel like the rules are in place and it's my job to ensure the game is played within those parameters. I feel like people think you shouldn't card a younger kiddo, but then they just keep repeating and not learning anything. My son earned his first YC by pulling on someone who had beaten him in the PA and he was 9 I think. I had no issue with it. Don't want yellow? Don't break the rules. Easy, right? I guess my question is what are your thoughts on cautioning a player in these age groups with special regard to fouls in the PA? Club soccer with no restrictions regarding cautions or send-offs. Pretty straightforward. I don't want to be the overzealous new guy, can't reconcile it.
Can you clarify? You say no yellow cards in those first two games, but then you say both were for UB, which is Unsporting Behavior, a yellow card offense...not a regular foul. Were you the only one giving yellow cards at that age group? Just because it is a PK, doesn't automatically equal a yellow, although I could see one for "pulling" if there was no attempt to play the ball. But not automatically for pushing or tripping, depending on other factors (DOGSO?, reckless?). But, to your original question, I don't have a problem with carding a U14 player in general if they earn it....In other posts I talk about coming very close to carding a U9 a couple of weeks ago for dissent. He was very much openly defiant of a call, but I went with an AC instead. They have to get their first card sometime, and I don't think that 13-14 years old is too young.
There is nothing in the laws that requires a PK foul to be cautioned at any age unless the foul is also reckless, tactical, or denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity (in which case the foul must be in a legitimate attempt to play the ball else it is a red card).
This is a great question from a new referee. The answer(s) are not quite as straightforward as you might think. (Often that's the case with refereeing questions, which is what keeps this forum going.) You actually have (at least) two separate things going on here. One is the question of at what ages and levels of competition does it become appropriate to start showing cards to youth players instead of simply talking to them about their conduct. Personally I don't give cards at U10 and below; I do at U11 and above, although I don't give many at U11-U12. (But then I don't do many U11-U12 matches, and do even fewer U10 and below, so I'm probably not a very indicator at those levels.) U13 and up, IMO we're now playing "real soccer" and we govern ourselves accordingly. This is "select" soccer I'm talking about, mind you, not rec. But that's just me, and others' opinions vary on this. The other aspect to your question involves whether and when to give cautions for fouls in the PA that result in a PK. Outside the PA, we give a caution for a "tactical foul," i.e, the so-called "professional" or "cynical" foul that is committed to break up a promising attack. And of course we also give cautions for other reasons, notably reckless as distinguished from merely careless fouls. Inside the PA, however, there is the idea that on the one hand virtually all fouls there are "tactical" and therefore arguably deserving of a caution, offset on the other hand by the notion that for an ordinary (i.e., non-reckless) foul in the area the awarding of the PK is sufficient punishment, and a caution is both unnecessary and inappropriate. In fact, there was official USSF guidance to this effect some years ago – i.e., that we don't give cautions for ordinary fouls in the area when the result is a PK. Reckless and other fouls (a blatant jersey pull, perhaps, for example) that are deserving of a caution in their own right, yes, but ordinary careless fouls, no.
My approach is if they're playing on a full-sized field, 11 v 11 (Not entirely sure if U12 plays on a full sized field, they get treated like U19 keeping mind I have some wiggle room when making my decisions. Keep doing games. There is no better teacher than experience.
Sorry, One was for holding, it was a player who'd been beaten and reacted by grabbing shirt and shoulders (a tactical foul?) The other was for tackling from behind with zero chance of getting ball and no apparent attempt at that. In short, if it wouldn't have been a YC outside the PA then it wouldn't be a YC inside the area, even if a pk is awarded? I feel that some of the referees that do our club leagues don't want to bother with cautions at all unless it's really, really bad. I'm trying to understand why that is, or is it me who's not "getting it"? It's difficult shifting from coach to referee, even understanding the laws.
Almost. If the only reason it would have been a yellow outside the area is that the referee judged it to be a tactical foul, then no yellow as the PK is sufficient consequence. But a foul that merits a caution because of its reckless nature gets that caution whether it's in the PA or not.
Thanks, a lot of situations are in the murky water of "in the opinion", but this gives me a better understanding. "Inside the PA, however, there is the idea that on the one hand virtually all fouls there are "tactical" and therefore arguably deserving of a caution, offset on the other hand by the notion that for an ordinary (i.e., non-reckless) foul in the area the awarding of the PK is sufficient punishment, and a caution is both unnecessary and inappropriate. In fact, there was official USSF guidance to this effect some years ago – i.e., that we don't give cautions for ordinary fouls in the area when the result is a PK. Reckless and other fouls (a blatant jersey pull, perhaps, for example) that are deserving of a caution in their own right, yes, but ordinary careless fouls, no." THIS is a HUGE help in really making me feel better about my approach. I may have been a bit harsh with one, but I'd already had a word with the kid ten minutes prior, so either way, I feel good explaining it to an assignor. I have to admit, I'm a bit addicted to it. I'm getting paid to exercise and I feel like I'm helping the kids by giving them someone who really cares and wants to do a good job. Trying to walk the walk with my own advice to parents "If you want to gripe at the referee during matches, you need to get certified first and get out on the field." I'll say also that this forum has been a huge help in gaining confidence and being prepared. Cheers
My approach is essentially the same as Bubba's. I've carded as young as U11 for boys and U13 for girls. Here are some previous threads on the topic of carding young players in general: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/would-you-give-cards-at-u9.2021332/ http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/opinions-wanted.2019741/ http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/refereeing-a-u-little-game.2012063/ http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/philosophy-on-red-cards-with-young-players-u10.1985554/ http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/carding-u-littles.1945789/ http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/use-of-cards-for-u-littles.1560958 http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/philosophy-on-carding-especially-red-on-youth-games.782965/
Those both sound like they might have fallen in the category of in-the-PA fouls that deserved to get the caution on top of the PK, not really because they were "tactical" fouls but because of the actual nature of the foul (shirt pull, no attempt to play the ball, etc.) There's some parallel here, by the way, to the types of foul that do or do not merit a sendoff under the new DOGSO rule.
Yup. Well your question was more specific than just should I card U-littles. The question about cautions for PK fouls is a good one.
@Spencedawgmillionaire You might find it helpful to take a step backwards and ask why we use cautions (for which we show a card to be clear about communication). We use them to change behavior. The extent we need them as a tool to change behavior is very much age dependent, as well as skill level dependent. There is a huge difference between what would warrant a caution in U9 and U13. To get there, it might help to go back to your initial characterization of UB. Sometimes shorthand is not our analytical friend. UB is not arbitrary, but means unsporting behavior. And the list of examples in Law 12 are not free standing offences, but examples of things that players do that are unsporting. So look at it through the lens of player age and development: a trip of an attacker at an older age may be unsporting, but at a younger age is likely just plain clumsy -- cynical play is very rare. Still a foul, but we don't need to take out the heavy artillery. The kid wasn't doing something unsporting, just can't control his or her body yet. The foul, and perhaps a comment, is all the kid, the game, and The Game need. As age increases and level of play increases, the players become more savvy, and with that more cynical plays occur.
I may have told this before; I'm still embarrassed when I think about it. I once gave a yellow card to a U12 rec player for doing what her coach was yelling at her to do, which was to run up and stand in front of the ball on an opponent's free kick right in front of her bench. She cried, and I found myself explaining it to her mother after the match. I wish I had that one back. (On the other hand, I bet that coach never gave that instruction again, which was more or less the point.)
There's only two reasons to not give U-littles cards, one is valid, one really isn't (all IMO) 1) Experience of the referee, less experience simply doesn't see the foul as a card, this is the not really legit, and I say that only because that same referee wouldn't card that in any game cause its' simply not recognized as "cardable", comes with experience. 2) Cards are a tool, a tool to change behavior. I almost NEVER gave cards in U-littles, because at 6'2" I could get the desired behavior change through words and body language as needed. If that didn't work, then yes you have to resort to a card.
Bubba and socal are (as always) giving clear, thoughtful guidance: I just want to take one thing and go one more level up. Part of what makes refereeing fun/addictive/challenging is the need to go outside of the moment you're in and where your eyes/body are right now, and instead observe the game from above as an informed spectator/coach, to determine --what tactics are the teams using, and how does that inform what I should be doing --what is the temperature of the game, and how do I want to manage that Both of these impact when you blow your whistle and when you show your cards. 100% misconduct is cut-and-dried - outside of that, we're expected to use our decision-making skills outside of those incidents to manage the game and keep the players safe. Some easy examples for the first 100 games: --If one team has a speedy-and-small striker who you've seen already blow by the defense a couple of times, and now suddenly she's being nipped at, you might be more willing to blow your whistle on small fouls on her than you might for a midfielder who was tackled the same way: you're not being "equal" and calling the same level on everyone, you are making the choice to protect that player's opportunity to influence the game. --If the game is 3-0 and the losing team knows they're never coming back and are getting frustrated, you might start to slow things down; let substitutions take a little longer, set up ceremonial free kicks when they might not be necessary (and doing so doesn't impact a legitimate opportunity), call some lighter fouls, re-tie your shoe or suggest a player does so - all for the purpose of bringing the temperature down and slowing the pace. Good luck! Welcome to the family!
Lots of good advice given here. As one who has spent 95% of his games on the short field, let me add one more reason to card. Safety. My first two cards were for players sliding in late after the keeper makes the save and is hunched down over the ball on the ground. One came in cleats up on the keeper's hands, the other caught him near the shoulder. Reckless play like that has got to be carded. Welcome aboard. These ages are usually a lot of fun.
Yeah, could have used a little taking to about why she shouldn't to that. I have had many, "you don't want to be pulling jerseys in the penalty area at State Cup..." moments late in the season.
One additional thought to all the great advice here is, "what do the players and coaches expect?" I had a U10 game where a boy on the goal line sticks out his hand to block a goal. DOGSO-H, right? I'm looking to the coaches, listening for shouts, and hearing nothing. I decide to give the kid a yellow and talk to him to explain he's lucky to still be in the game and not do this again. I asked the coach at the end of the game and he agreed with my decision - at that point, the purpose of the game is the kids to play and have fun. In another game, GU13, I see a player give a small kick toward a girl after a foul, but no contact is made. I blew the whistle and tried to talk to her. She claims she didn't do anything. I decide to issue a yellow card, since talking to her isn't getting me anywhere. Could it have been a red? Maybe. But I was using the card as a way to change her behavior after talking to her didn't seem to work. And fortunately, next thing I hear from the coach is, "Sub!"
I was more likely to give cards in leagues where the players had to be selected to be on a team. If they survived tryouts, they could probably survive getting a card. Not that I gave that many cards in youth matches of any type. Usually I would have plenty of fingers left on one hand after a season of working 20-40 games.
Just gonna add in my 2 cents here, so take it with a grain of salt. When it comes to my cutoff of "cardable ages", for me, if there are standings kept and your old enough to be playing with full rules in effect, in the travel league I do it's U11 that they start keeping standings, then I can and will treat you like you know what you're doing, because most, if not all the travel teams in that league are tryout teams. I echo Gary V's sentiment: When it comes to the threshold of cardable offenses, to me, I'd much rather give the players an AC when a card is avoidable. Something like a DOGSO-H offense, however, is not gonna slide and I will still send the player off. Remember that I'm speaking of travel leagues. Rec leagues around here don't keep standings so I'm much more lenient on cards (the instructions for rec leagues actually spells out no cards U10 and below).
Not saying anyone is wrong here, but clubs can't collect fees from players they don't place on a team. Around here at least they try hard not to "cut" anyone from the travel leagues that wants to play travel.